India Takes Economic Spotlight, and Critics Are Unkind

The New York Times ^ | March 7, 2004 | AMY WALDMAN

[Cronos]

Would Jesus be so blind to the plight of India as we have been!

And more so, I have tremendous respect for a country that:

1. Stops begging us to hand out aid to them (like most of the African and South American states do)
2. Manages to keep it's Republic running with regular elections when all other countries around it have falled to multiple dicatorships (Burma, Pakistan, Bangaladesh, Thailand, Singapore)
3. That gives us the best bulwark against COMMUNIST CHINA and THE ISLAMC WORLD.

[Cronos]

At the same time, they keep a very stiff protectionist barrier in place.

They've been told to reduce those barriers and ARE reducing it, albeit gradually. They do have 300 million poor farmers, dirt poor farmers, worse than the dust bowl during the depression. SO, you want these folks to starve? They will have to put in opening things gradually or else we'll have another communist revolution with masses of poor people.

The article does bring out the poitn that India's trying to better its lot without asking for perpetual handouts and it's getting kicked in the face for it. This doesn't bode well for an alliance against the chicoms or the slamics. They may well get po'ed so badly they turn completely away from us -- like what Clinton did t Russia. In Russia's time of need, Clinton refused to really help it out. And now the Russians wouldn't become out allies, even those an alliance is logical

[yankeedame]

Why does it take white collars to get attention. We blue collars never get this much press.

Really,darling, that's so...so blue collar of you to ask.

[Jimmy Valentine]

This will last until the first class action lawsuits against those same corporations get rolling.

These outsourcing companies have forgotten a few things about their precious low cost new sources;

1. Copyright and patent protection? - a fiction,

2. Security of files against identity theft? - a joke,

3. Ethics in management? - They think we are chumps,

4. Respect for our laws including tax? - Something to ignore until caught

5. Integrity of data? - India alone is the source of major computer viruses and worms.

The "short-run maximizers" who run so many of todays corporations have sacrificed every value, every standard, and most of the ethics on the blood soaked altar of the conventional wisdom of the short run dollar.. They are sowing the wind.

Regards,

[DustyMoment]

Ok, once again. No, they have not worked for our jobs, our jobs have been handed to them by the American corporations to whom those jobs belong. The current trend in American business is increase the bottom line at any cost; that includes destroying America so that stockholders can get an extra quarter in their dividend check. The problem is NOT that our government won't allow us to chase after the jobs or invest in Indian markets. Our government will let any of us go to India or invest to our heart's content.

The real problem is this: if you want to go to India and chase your job, you are free to go; no one will stop you - no one in the US, that is. IF you get hired by an Indian company (don't hold your breath), you will have to work for Indian wages; substantially less than American wages. And, as a foreigner working in India, a socialist country, you will likely not receive the subsidies from the Indian government that Indian citizens doing the same work will recieve, which means that you will really be working for slave wages and have the opportunity to discover the joys of poverty in a foreign country. Not a good idea.

The problem is that, as of today, the playing field is NOT level. India and China (among other nations that our jobs are being shipped to) have imposed a tariff/tax subsidy that makes it difficult to get American goods INTO India (for example) for sale at an affordable price and take jobs away from them. To level the playing field so that Americans are not at a disadvantage in this marketplace, we need our government (at a minimum) to eliminate corporate income taxes and introduce a national sales tax. If the corporate income tax AND a lot of the regulations on American businesses are eliminated, the job climate will change drastically. Jobs will be flowing to America faster than we can fill them and all those illegal aliens occupying the country will even have a shot at better jobs than busing tables or construction.

Surprisingly, there is growing interest in Congress to do this. More, however, the Congress simply wants to make it harder for corporations to ship jobs offshore. IMO, that's the wrong approach, but it is A solution; just not the best one. Trying to force American corporations to keep the jobs in America is counter-productive. What we need is an incentive that makes American corporations WANT to keep the jobs here instead of forcing them to keep them here. That incentive is the elimination of corporate income taxes and the imposition of a national sales tax.

[Pharmboy]

The pics from the article:

Santosh Verma for The New York Times
The call center of Wipro Technologies in Bombay. The outsourcing of jobs to India has provoked an emotional reaction in the United States.

Santosh Verma for The New York Times
In Bombay, two Wipro employees
took calls recently from
Americans. Despite such service
jobs, Indian unemployment is
relatively high.

[Brimack34]

I own a machine shop skilled as I am. But I still do not wear a suit, thus I am blue collar I guess. Over looked under paid and you need me. You have to make things to survive as a Country. You can not just push paper's and have meetings and call a day.

[swarthyguy]

When people start beating you up, it means you have made it.

People forget the Internet Web PC boom came out of the 1960's technology push.

The US has lost faith in its spirit of advancement and exploration. A full bore techno space robotics program could be the impetus for new technologies in the US and the subsequent spinoffs.

China stopped exploring the coast of Africa in the 15 and 16 Centuries. They paid bigtime for that loss of nerve.

[NRA2BFree]

That's an unfair statement.

No, it's not at all unfair.

The wages these Indian employees get are actually quite high for the Indian labor market.

Bingo! The key words here are "QUITE HIGH FOR THE INDIAN LABOR MARKET,"which means that they are prostituting their skills to greedy American corporations for wages that are MUCH LOWER WITH NO BENEFITS! That's NOT competition. IF they demanded the same wages and benefits that Americans were getting, the companies never would have relocated to India.

That's why you have Indian MBA's clamoring for telemarketer positions with U.S. based multinationals! As for greedy American corporations - I can't say you don't have a point, but I will say this... if some of them do it, they all have to do it, just to stay competitive.

The ONLY competition that Indians have done is the competing they do against each other as American companies are deciding which Indians they are hiring from the pool of Indian applicants. I don't feel sorry for their MBA's having to work as telemarketers. If they can't get one of the American jobs that are now in India, it's because of the competition between applicants IN INDIA!

[NRA2BFree]

You'll like this one. ;)

[AM2000]

You're saying you expect Indian workers to ask for US salaries, and if they don't they're not really competing?

That's liek saying Walmart isn't really competing with more expensive mom-n-pop shops because their prices are lower. It's like saying, let's see if they get all that busienss if they charge just as much as the competition! The whole point of competition is to provide a similar service at a lower cost and that's precisely what the Indians are doing.

[NRA2BFree]

You*re saying you expect Indian workers to ask for US salaries, and if they don*t they*re not really competing?

NO, I didn*t say that YOU did.

That*s liek saying Walmart isn*t really competing with more expensive mom-n-pop shops because their prices are lower. It*s like saying, let*s see if they get all that busienss if they charge just as much as the competition! The whole point of competition is to provide a similar service at a lower cost and that*s precisely what the Indians are doing.

LOL...NO, it isn*t. Walmart is a business and it competes with the mom and pop stores and they are businesses too. That has NOTHING to do with Indians competing with Americans for jobs that are located in India. Don*t compare businesses to people. The ONLY people competing for those jobs are INDIANS. They are competing against each other, NOT against Americans!

The Indians did NOT take jobs away from Americans because they*re more qualified. GREEDY AMERICAN CORPORATIONS TOOK JOBS TO INDIA. Why? Because the Indians prostitute their skills out to those GREEDY AMERICAN CORPORATIONS for cheap wages.

Let me assure you these companies will bring them back to American workers IF our government gets rid of the corporate taxes, etc that make it more costly to do business in America.

Unfortunately, many of the Indians CANNOT speak good English AND even those that can don*t have a good comprehension of English. It*s too difficult to talk to them. They don*t understand what you are asking them. I KNOW this for a fact. They have NO business working in customer service.

[AM2000]

The ONLY people competing for those jobs are INDIANS. They are competing against each other, NOT against Americans!

Incorrect. Americans are competing as well, it just so happens that we've managed to price ourselves right out of the market.

...IF our government gets rid of the corporate taxes, etc that make it more costly to do business in America.

Exactly. Due to business conditions in this country - conditions that have been imposed by our elected representatives, we've priced ourselves too high. The Indians are competing with us, but we just can't match their prices.

Unfortunately, many of the Indians CANNOT speak good English AND even those that can don*t have a good comprehension of English.

I'm in IT and deal with Indian tech help desks for our vendor products all the time. Many of them do not speak good English, but many of them do - and they can comprehend just fine. You're exaggerating.

[Cronos]

Integrity of data? - India alone is the source of major computer viruses and worms.

Where did you get that???? the major source is in the US....

The rest of your arguments are equally ludicrous: they HAVE the laws in place or the companies wouldn't send it there -- their data protection laws are modelled on our own.

[Cronos]

you will likely not receive the subsidies from the Indian government that Indian citizens doing the same work will recieve,

NO countries subsidises it's citizens in the manner you're speaking of? What are you talking about? I've never read of any subsidy given to the citizens.

[Cronos]

which means that you will really be working for slave wages and have the opportunity to discover the joys of poverty in a foreign country. Not a good idea.

And, the amounts paid to these workers is substantially higher than the normal wage and puts them in the upper middle class. The country IS a lot cheaper than ours -- because we've been bogged down with tons of government regulation and having to pay for increasingly weighty government.

[Cronos]

IF they demanded the same wages and benefits that Americans were getting, the companies never would have relocated to India.

The wages they earn gives them the same lifestyle as someone earning 6 times as much in the US -- why? Because we've got to pay so much in taxes to keep a bloated government, we've got to pay so much in premiums because of greedy lawyers suing every company, increasing their legal costs, which they pass on to us.

[Jimmy Valentine]

Ho..Ho..Ho..

You are such a chump.

The laws may be in place. My point is, they don't give a damn for them.

I am content to wait and be proven correct.

Regards,

[Cronos]

You are such a chump. The laws may be in place. My point is, they don't give a damn for them.

Yawn, keep waiting. The laws are the laws. If they're in place in a functioning democracy then transgressors will be prosecuted.

[Bombay Bloke]

"Why? Because the Indians prostitute their skills out to those GREEDY AMERICAN CORPORATIONS for cheap wages"

I don't get why you're saying that Indians are prostituting themselves. The wages are not "cheap" - they're competitive within the Indian context. That's why graduates are keen to take these kinds of jobs, for a couple of years, anyway. The turnover is quite high because the jobs are so boring and the skills are not particularly transferable.

Why do you consider it "prostitution" for someone to sell their labour at a price they consider fair? It may cheaper than US labour - but that's globalisation. That's what we want, right?

"Unfortunately, many of the Indians CANNOT speak good English AND even those that can don*t have a good comprehension of English. It*s too difficult to talk to them. They don*t understand what you are asking them. I KNOW this for a fact. They have NO business working in customer service."

This is a wild generalisation and, frankly, untrue. The level of English varies in this country, but around 200 million people in India speak English, many of them excellently.