Reluctant Crusader: Chivalry where you’d least expect it(National Review reviews Kingdom of Heaven)

National Review Online ^ | May 6, 2005 | Steve Beard

[Publius6961]

Hope springs eternal.
I don't begrudge people their delusions, so long as they don't impose them on my family, my community and me on a mandatory national level.

[JWinNC]

A book recommendation: Unveiling Islam

[SMARTY]

Plagarising myself from previously: The director wants the hype and discord because that will induce more and more people to PAY for a seat, if only out of curiosity. Unfortunately, when the director sits in his multi million dollar mansion and laughs at all the fools who parted with their hard earned money, he has it both ways. Beat us up AND took our lunch money! Not mine!!! Those people who will bash my values, my morals, people who will unashamedly bash the Catholic Church (THE oldest institution made by man, held by man and known to man on earth)I say, when these money grubbing autodidacts cash in on their own hatred and stupidity, they only do it with the support of consumers who are not astute enough to BOYCOTT this propaganda (because that is what it IS). Remember, the dollar is the loudest voice in their world. Heck, I'm not even Catholic and I am angry about this!

[mike182d]

I highly recommend reading A Concise History of the Crusades by Thomas Madden.

Infact, if you want a really concise summary, you can read him here. Its an article by Professor Madden in National Review Online.

[Tallguy]

Have you seen his first (I believe it was his first) movie, The Duellists?

I never miss that one! One of the best period piece movies ever.

[DOGEY]

When the Crusades are discussed, it is never mentioned that the Muslims had previously conquered north Africa, the Iberian peninsula attempted to enter France and controlled, for a time, Sicily.

[Tallguy]

It was also an outlet for european military 'energy'. The feudal system was beginning to breakdown as only the eldest male could inherit land & title. There were a lot of excess males running around -- Men at Arms -- looking to gain a military reputation. Directing them toward the infidel made a lot of practical sense.

[Sans-Culotte]

You should definitely get the DVD of The Duellists. There is an interesting interview with Scott in which he reveals some interesting facts about the making of the film, such its roots in a Conrad story which was in turn based on a real historic story, etc. And he has a commentary track with more info about how he achieved many of the efffects in the film, why he cast whom he did, how it was under budhet and on time, etc. The film is beautifully mastered in widescreen and has a stereo soundtrack for the first time. You also get an isolated track of the film score, with commentary by the composer.

This new film looks rather uninspired. The plot seems kind of lifted from the old Fox film Captain From Castille, in which Tyrone Power, after losing a sister to the Inquisition, flees Catholic Spain joins Cortez' "crusade" to the New World.

[Williams]

If you want an objective, insightful and elegant account of the history of the Crusades, the Christian Church, and the Moslem religion the essential place to look is Gibbons' Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire. You can't sum up the good, bad and epic that occured over hundreds of years in a movie. These are vast historical events and Gibbons applies his famous sense of irony to illuminate them. He acknowledges the good and the bad alike and also recognizes when we just don't know. It's a vast work so you would consult the sections dealing with this subject. The story of Mohammed, the Church, the Crusades, is all facinating.

[bowzer313]

"If you want an objective, insightful and elegant account of the history of the Crusades, the Christian Church, and the Moslem religion the essential place to look is Gibbons' Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire."

F*** that! Gibbon was a Moslem a**kisser! Like all good "liberals", chil'ren of the "enlightenment", Gibbon had nothing but bad to say about the Church. In Gibbon's mind, Mohammad and Mohammadenism was the wave of the future, baby! Believe it. I had to read his Arabist swill at college.

For my money, the only historian worth his salt who truly understood the perfidy of the Moslems and the value of western Church traditions in conducting defensive wars against the coming Moslem hordes was Jacob Burckhardt. Read his "The Age of Constantine", a much better work all the way 'round.

[Nam Vet]

I'm taking my 15 year old son tonight to see it. I'm sure the movie will be too PC to enjoy it on a true historical level so I will watch for the entertainment value only. I'll let you know what I think about it this weekend.

Nam Vet

[Williams]

Sadly you don't know what you are talking about and your mind is poisoned by some simplistic hatred of moslems or something along those lines. I'm sure you never read Gibbons at length but if you did it is lost on you. Gibbons makes plenty of critical comments about Mohammed and about the arabs of the period, and Gibbons most definitely does not view Mohammedism as a true religion based on Godly revelations. Gibbons had an incredible insight into history and human nature, and anyone who finds Gibbons that offensive is on a par with Nazi book burners. Gibbons has enormous lessons for our time and they are not even remotely "liberal" lessons. Further, Gibbons has many many many good things to say about the Church and many many great figures in Church history. While he is honest about history, a famous Bishop once observed that there is little in Gibbons that the Church's own historians would dispute. If tyou think the Church's history was an uninterrupted rose garden for 2000 years well sorry that's just not reality.

[dennisw]

Post a movie review :)

[Antoninus]

If you want an objective, insightful and elegant account of the history of the Crusades, the Christian Church, and the Moslem religion the essential place to look is Gibbons' Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

You forgot: "virulently anti-Catholic/anti-Papal bigot." Granted, Gibbon was a man of his time, when virulently anti-Catholic bigots were a shilling-a-dozen in England, but his work was simply an answer to the epochal "Ecclesiastical Annals" of Cardinal Baronius. This work is the resource for the history of Christian Europe up to the Reformation--never translated into English to the best of my knowledge.

[Williams]

To be more specific, Gibbons plainly depicts the Arabs as emotional malcontents who justify their misbehaviors such as killing one another at the drop of a hat for common theft. He depicts Mohammed as a religious zealot and certainly not based on any real revelation. He depicts the wholesale slaughter perpetrated by and among the Arabs, for and against Mohammed. He does also recognize some good traits in Mohammed as a leader but those are reality. He was describing a great threat taht had arisen against Western culture and he was able to acknowledge the strengths of the enemy and the bases of teh enemy's viewpoint. You also seem totally unaware of Gibbons' many descriptions of heroic crusaders.

[Antoninus]

and anyone who finds Gibbons that offensive is on a par with Nazi book burners.

Whoops! You lost the argument before it started.

FWIW, I'm not "offended" by Gibbon--I do, however, find his anti-Papal bigotry to be a major weakness of his work--just as I find anti-semitic bigotry a weakness in some 18th & 19th century scholarship. But such scholars were men of their time. Very few of them could rise above the petty politics of the prevailing zeitgeist.

[Williams]

Gibbons was not virulently anti-Catholic nor is his work a mere response to a chuch history, because Gibbons' vast work revolves around the Roman Empire over a 1400 year period. His many volumes work touches on the Church, Mohammed and for that matter Persia and so many kingdoms and religions and persons tehy can't possibly be listed. Gibbons hada tremendous overview of religious doctrine of many religions. It's knee-jerk to worry about Gibbons' "biases" his work exposes the behavior of just about everyone good and bad across the spectrum. Yes Gibbons showed some respect for the pantheism of the ancients. And he attributed early Christianity's doctrines to some loss of martial spirit in the Roman Empire. but as with everything said about his great work, that is an oversimplification because he certainly is describing combat by many and various Christian forces. For example, because the Gothic invaders were mostly Christianized, he credits christianity with "softening" teh fall of the Empire because the invaders had a religion in common with the vanquished and were guided somewhat by Christian principles. I think Gibbons was above all else honest.

Decline is very long and covers about 1500 years of history. Someone remarked taht no library is complete without a full set of Gibbons - unread. I think that creates much misunderstanding for this work.

It's worth mentioning that IMHO Gibbons presents all the evidence needed to prove the necessity for a strong national defense, the threat posed by unassimilated immigrants, the economic devastation caused by excessive taxation, and the very real dangers of Moslem extremism. All good conservative lessons for our time.

[Williams]

The person I was responding to began by dealing with one of the absolute greatest historical works with the words "F*** That!" and went downhill from there. Again, Gibbons' work is not an anti-papal diatribe, not even remotely so. He in fact credits Gegory the Great with saving teh city of Rome from dissapearing from the Earth. I was re-reading that part this morning. Was Gregory a "flawed" as well as great figure? Yes, but that is historical reality.

[RightCenter]

What about the Crusaders' attack on Constantinople and the massacre of Eastern Orthodox Christians?

[BoilermakerCAengineerguy]

I will go to this movie to see knights on horseback charging into battle. The rest is just Hollywood drivel.

Hear, hear! I want to go see it just because I don't think I've ever seen a movie featuring trebuchets in the battle sequences. Trebuchets are cool! ;-)