Italy prosecutors seek extradition of CIA agents (who are accused of kidnapping terrorist)

Reuters ^ | Nov. 11, 2005 | Phil Stewart

[SpringheelJack]

No, it's what happened with Abu Nidal after we went to all the trouble to intercept the plane he was being flown to safety in and forcing it to land in Italy.

I looked and couldn't find any information about this, except for a report that six years ago Italy was trying to get Iraq to turn Nidal over to them to face a murder charge.

[SpringheelJack]

If we thought they would pick this guy up and treat it seriously, we probably wouldn't have done it on our own.

You'd think, but then I take it for granted we have a lot of idiots working in our government agencies.

[SpringheelJack]

Actually, now that I think about it, I remember the same as FairOpinion, they'd approved it, and then backtracked once it was made public.

Based on what?

[son of caesar]

jack, what was the name of the guy who did the achille lauro, you know, the one who murdered the jewish guy in the wheelchair and then threw him overboard. that is the guy the italians let go. excellent job to whomever kidnapped this scum, and extra good job sending him back to egypt, where they really dont mess around with these types, ive heard from someone who knows this kind of thing that they skin the bastards alive little by little with they have constipation of the tongue, this method seems to loosen tongues extremely well. btw, it is an ancient chinese tactic.

[SpringheelJack]

Abu Abbas is the person you mean, and he was let go because of fuzzy diplomatic immunity issues described here: http://www.nationalreview.com/murdock/murdock200403101426.asp

The controversy around this incident in 1985 led to the collapse of the then-prime minister's government.

So you guys are saying that because of an incident that happened 20 years ago, with disastrous electoral consequences to the guy who allowed it, we have a free card to just steal in and do whatever we want to on Italian territory?

Hmmm... Jimmy Carter was pretty soft on Puerto Rican terrorists 20-odd years ago, wasn't he? Who's got the right to be march into our country because of that now?

[Patriot from Philly]

I expected the Milan prosecutor to ask for extradition. Now comes the interesting part. I expect an elaborate dance between the US and Italian governments to protect the Italians on this but not cause too much trouble for the Americans involved.

For instance, the Italians will probably stall for awhile on requesting extradition and would like to avoid it all together unless it gets too hot politically.

If they ask for extradition, it will be with a wink and a nod expecting the US to ignore it. The Italian government won't issue an international arrest warrant.

I would not be surprised if the plan has already been laid out.

[Patriot from Philly]

I suspect the US had their OK. However, both sides will deny that Italy ok'ed it. The Italians are in far more legal jeopardy than the Americans.

My prediction: If it gets too hot politically, the Italian government will issue an extradition request.

The Americans will ignore it.

In a year, the Italians will drop the request.

This boring story will go away.

It's a political year in Italy.

[SpringheelJack]

The Americans are in no legal jeopardy, so long as they don't blunder into Italy. Thankfully for them Italian operatives won't sneak into this country and ferret them out during the night, though maybe some here think they should since we let them ignore a court order.

[Patriot from Philly]

Covert operations are by their nature illegal. However, several CIA officials have indicated that the US would never pull an operation like this without approval from the Italian government at some level.

So the issue here is to protect the Italians who supported the operation. The US and Italy will engage in an elaborate dance, the US will give the Italian government cover.

Rendition is a US government policy that is open to debate. The CIA folks were acting under this policy which was approved act from the US government. It is highly unlikely the US would ever extradict these officers but needs to let the Italians look like they are trying.

The media has decided it doesn't like the Iraq War or rendition.

They want the War on Terror fought as a law enforcement matter, an approach that has proved a failure in the past.

[endthematrix]

Abu Omar was once an informant for Albanian intelligence in turn overseen by the CIA.

[SpringheelJack]

If the Italian government authorized the move then I doubt the Americans are liable, unless they knew they were doing something criminal. (Whatever you say, I have a hard time believing CIA agents have the right to commit crimes here or there, and I doubt you could come up with any documentation to support that). Whoever's ultimately at fault this was pretty stupidly handled.

[Patriot from Philly]

It' a covert operation. Imagine if we could have illegally grabbed Muhammad Atta out of Hamburg in 2000 and neutralized him. It would have been illegal, a crime in Germany, but the right thing to do from the standpoint of our national security.

You are right it was sloppy. Good trade craft is an important part of any operation. Because the US had the Italian government's OK they got sloppy and this has caused embarrassment to both governments.

For more on covert ops gone bad, after the 1976 Munich Olympic killing of Israeli athletes, the Mossad organized hit teams to track down and kill each terrorist involved. Most of these terrorists were living in Europe. One operation went very badly and they killed the wrong person and members of the team were captured and tried.

The sentences were relatively light (5 years let out after 22 months).

[Patriot from Philly]

Right...the latest narrative from the journalists who are covering this story is that the US wanted him to be an agent for them and that is why the grabbed him.

Then their little torture story doesn't make sense.

I suspect this guy was organizing fighters to go to Iraq and that's why we took him.

[endthematrix]

You want the link? It's entirely plausible. It was a decade ago and then he went MIA. He had terror contacts. Thats why he was snatched...and he'd talk. Any worthy snitch has his hands dirty otherwise there's no info. To think that he wasn't a snitch is ignorant of the intel profession.

[Patriot from Philly]

I believe you. It's an interesting angle to this story. I e-mailed a reporter who has written on this story and essentially said his reporting on this was skewed by his dislike of the rendition policy. The answer I got back confirmed this.

Whether one likes rendition or not, it is an official US policy and the operatives who carry it out are working on our behalf.

Now the sloppy tradecraft is another story altogether.

[endthematrix]

Priest, Dana. "Italy Knew About Plan to Grab Suspect: CIA Officials Cite Briefing in 2003." Washington Post, 30 Jun. 2005, A1.

"Before a CIA paramilitary team was deployed to snatch a radical Islamic cleric [Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr] off the streets of Milan in February 2003, the CIA station chief in Rome briefed and sought approval from his counterpart in Italy, according to three CIA veterans with knowledge of the operation and a fourth who reviewed the matter after it took place. The previously undisclosed Italian involvement undercuts the accusation ... that the CIA brashly slipped into the country unannounced and uninvited to kidnap an Italian resident off the street."

See Craig Whitlock, "Italy Denies Complicity In Alleged CIA Action: Egyptian Cleric Abducted in '03," Washington Post, 1 Jul. 2005, A14: Parliamentary Affairs Minister Carlo Giovanardi has denied that the Italian government "knew in advance about the 2003 abduction of a radical Egyptian cleric, which investigators in Milan have said was carried out by a group of CIA operatives."

[Patriot from Philly]

Thanks for the link. The lesson for the CIA in all this is that it is even more important to practice good trade craft when you are operating on an allies' territory than an enemy.

Even if the government is friendly, the next government may not be and, as we've seen in this case, the judiciary may be hostile and grandstanding.

The next steps will be interesting. I suspect the Italian government will not want to ask for extradition but it will look like they were involved if they don't. Plus it's an election year.

I suspect that things on the surface will be very different than what's happening behind the scenes.

The Italian government and the US government want this to go away.

[endthematrix]

Yep.

BTW here is that link for the Nasr/Albanian intelligence connection:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/specials/chi-0507030272jul03,1,7388165.story?coll=chi-newsspecials-hed

[SpringheelJack]

It' a covert operation. Imagine if we could have illegally grabbed Muhammad Atta out of Hamburg in 2000 and neutralized him. It would have been illegal, a crime in Germany, but the right thing to do from the standpoint of our national security.

If by "illegally" you mean, do it without Germany's knowledge, then no I don't think so, unless you want to set off a period of legal anarchy and leave guys like Henry Kissinger vulnerable to covert ops kidnapping. That's something you have to do in cooperation with that country, and I'm not at all convinced we had Italy's cooperation in this thing.

[Patriot from Philly]

We had the cooperation of the intelligence service, probably at a very high level.

We certainly didn't tell the Milan prosecutor, judges, cop on the beat, media. That's why it's covert.

As for that lack of Germany's cooperation in the alternate reality abduction of Atta, 3000 Americans were not available for comment.