The Reformation of Doctrine and the Renewal of the Church: A Response to Dr. William R. Estep

Founders ^ | 1997 | R. Albert Mohler, Jr.

[Gamecock]

Nor am I.

The funny thing about the entire seeker sensitive movement is that in an effort to draw pagans into the church, they have made the church look just like the outside world.

Think about it.

They decry modern music, but then have heavily amped praise bands that don't sing hymns, but ditties that proclaim themes like "Jesus is my boyfriend."

Don't preach Christ crucified. That turns the unsaved off. Instead Jesus is your friend who dispenses the same advice you can get on Dr Phil. Somehow, the very "advice" that Christ dispenses is not recognized for what it really is, LAW. It will condemn the unbeliever just as quickly as the 10 Commandments.

Let's not call it a church. That turns people off. Call it a worship center that better reflects the prior two observations.

I suppose I can go on and on. At a meeting my Arminian pastor once threw out the term seeker sensitive. I asked him to show me where in Scripture the pagan was called to worship God. He looked at me quizzically and I told him God's people are called to worship Him, not the pagan, so why are we talking about tailoring the worship to the unsaved. Plus since faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, let's focus on preaching the Law and Gospel and grow the Church the way God has set out to do.

A worship service is the goal of evangelism, not the place for it....

[Gamecock]

Your vehemence is blinding your thinking.

Ironically, you started with a personal attack asking what I am smoking.

Take the plank out of your own eye and we'll chat some more.

[Religion Moderator]

Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal!

[ksen]

Too many these days think the church is for the unsaved. Uh uh, it's a place for believers to come together to worship Christ in a corporate setting and to take part in the Lord's Supper with one another.

[Sensei Ern]

My "vehemence" did not move me into making claims of heresy.

Mine was merely a standard response to such an incredible claim. Maybe I should have asked, "What are you drinking?"

At the behest of the moderator, I will refrain from commenting further, to prevent ill actions against me.

[George W. Bush]

They decry modern music, but then have heavily amped praise bands that don't sing hymns, but ditties that proclaim themes like "Jesus is my boyfriend."

Yikes. We have some of those 7-11 songs (7 inane words each repeated 11 times to banging rhythms). I guess there are worse things.

A worship service is the goal of evangelism, not the place for it...

I generally agree but I think there's room for some evangelism in our worship. But not for false evangelism of the kind that suborns scriptural truth to the palatable mouthings of easy-believerism.

I was amazed recently at a related incident. A man known to our church but not known as a Christian came to church. In the midst of the prayer requests and testimonies portion of the service, he spoke up and declared he had trusted in Christ as a result of reading the Bible. Within a few months, the ignorami in this church were ascribing his salvation to the preacher. That is, the preacher the man had never even heard preach. And he did proceed to preach a miserably uninspiring sermon and even got lost in his text several times. I thought about inquiring whether the deacons or preacher had pursued the issue of baptism with him but I realized it was probably more merciful to a new Christian not to raise the issue with people that don't grasp that God can use many things, commonly employing scripture, to cause a man to confess and trust Christ as savior. It's quite unsettling to see (nominal) Baptists who are this confused.

[Sensei Ern]

Speaking of Dracula...

I have often wondered how a writer with an understanding would write a vampire movie when the protagonist were a regenerated believer of Christ.

The standard lore of vampires(not Rice) is that the vampire feeds off the blood/soul of the victim. A christian is sealed by the Holy Spirit and indwelt by Christ and thus cannot be affected soul-wise. This would make the Christian a walking version of the symbolic cross. Even physical damage would not be possible unless it is God's will.

Sorry for taking the thread in another direction.

[Gamecock]

***I generally agree but I think there's room for some evangelism in our worship.***

Let me build on what I was trying to say.

In any given church, there are saved and unsaved. The saved are there to worship, the unsaved have all sorts of bad reasons for attending. Some think the very act of going to church will save them.. Others go just because they want to be a good example for their kids. The list goes on and on. The tricky thing is that you really don't know if the guy sitting next to you, or teaching you Sunday School is saved or not.

In my walk I have come to appreciate something called "Law and Gospel" worship.

The way it is preached works out something like this: The first part of the sermon focuses on God's law and our rebellion. It closes with God's answer to our rebellion, the life, suffering and resurrection of our Lord and Savior.

The saved benefit in that they hear a law that no longer condemns but provides for our sanctification. And when we fail it is reinforced that the Gospel is for Christians and the unsaved.

The unsaved elect hear the law, realize that they are unsaved, and then are able to see that their own efforts are nothing but filthy rags. They will see that Christ is their only hope in this life and the next.

The problem is in many churches the meditation/message (in seeker sensitive terms) focuses on morality, which is the Law, but watered down so it sounds like something we can achieve. Just so the seeker isn't offended, the full measure of God and the full measure of Christ's sacrifice are not preached. People walk out and in a Pelagian response think "I'm a good guy, I can do that!" And then they flip off the guy who cuts him off on the way to the Golden Corral. They might have some idea they shouldn't have done that. But they promise to try harder.

A Christian who gets cut off might feel some anger, or might even flip the offender off. But after hearing the Law and Gospel realizes they have sinned and pray that God will move them past that sin in their life (sanctification). They die more and more to their old selves and live to Christ.

In a rambling way, I am trying to say that the preaching of the word has an Evangelistic effect on the unsaved, and a sanctifying effect on the elect.

[A.J.Armitage]

I challenge anyone to identify a verse of scripture that says believing or receiving is a work.

John 6:29.

[Sensei Ern]

John 6:29: Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. (KJV)

Very good. How about I rephrase it? I challenge anyone to find a verse that says believing and receiving is a work of man in an attempt to merit salvation.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I challenge anyone to identify a verse of scripture that says believing or receiving is a work.

"Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God." -- 1 Thessalonians 1:3-4

Graces saves. Trinitarian faith in Jesus Christ is the instrument with which God chooses to dispense His grace.

[George W. Bush]

In my walk I have come to appreciate something called "Law and Gospel" worship.

That sounds like a sound practice. I wasn't objecting much to your other post, just pointing out that the Great Commission should have scope for fulfillment even in the midst of a worship service. But I do agree that evangelism is not the focus of worship.

Spurgeon wrote many fine sermons. And they were generally filled with insruction to the saved. But he never failed to offer a sweet invitational to accept Christ as well.

This also points out why I am often dubious about the Graham crusades or TV evangelists in general. I'm sure some people have been saved by them. But I think it's a very very tiny number.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

It's the thought that counts. 8~)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Ping to a few interested parties, perhaps. 8~)

[Sensei Ern]

See post 30.

[Gamecock]

Not taken as such. My previous post left a lot of holes. It sounds like we are on the same sheet of music.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

See post 31.

You asked for a verse that showed faith was a work.

"Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father

Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God." -- 1 Thessalonians 1:3-4

Faith is the instrument by which God dispenses His predestined, unmerited, free and saving grace. Faith, like repentance, hope and all good works, are given by God for His glory.

"For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive?" -- 1 Corinthians 4:7

God's grace alone saves.

"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13

[Gamecock]

**God's grace alone saves.**

Amen! It is all of God.

Romans 9:16 So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

First off, regardless of what anyone on this planet does, Jesus is already King. I don't crown him. God did. I don't make him Lord of my life. He is the Lord of everyone's life, regardless if people believe that or not.

Second, "the cross" is not the Saviour. Christ is. Christ saves by virtue of what he did on the cross. The cross is of no value other than being the object upon which Christ was nailed as He received the full measure of the righteous wrath of God. This modern Evangelistic idea that "the cross" has some intrinsic power borders on Romanist relic worship. But then again, much of modern Evangelistic practice looks very Romanist when you pull back the layers enough

Amen and amen!

During the late 19th century and early 20th century there was a great influx of money into previously sturdy denominations to encourage a quasi-gnostic universalism which intentionally splintered the Gospel into various spiritualisms, half-truths, Arminian-leaning sophistry and outright errors.

What happened to Princeton happened everywhere. Stalwarts were marginalized as "extremists" for simply asserting God's grace alone saves the sinner."

The deconstruction of orthodox Trinitarian Christianity continues to this day.

But some resist, by the grace of God alone.

As God wills.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

At a meeting my Arminian pastor once threw out the term seeker sensitive. I asked him to show me where in Scripture the pagan was called to worship God. He looked at me quizzically and I told him God's people are called to worship Him, not the pagan, so why are we talking about tailoring the worship to the unsaved. Plus since faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, let's focus on preaching the Law and Gospel and grow the Church the way God has set out to do

Amen. What was his response?