The Reformation of Doctrine and the Renewal of the Church: A Response to Dr. William R. Estep

Founders ^ | 1997 | R. Albert Mohler, Jr.

[Gamecock]

***A great many are drawn to the "mega-churches" because its okay to not know something.***

And a content to stay that way. I'd venture a guess that most people don't have any idea of what they're supposed to be saved from or how that takes place.

Americans have a fear of learning. Just look at how publik skoolz have been dumbed down. Every other institution is bound to follow.

[xzins]

BD, you have correctly divided scripture where others have missed something.

There is lots of things right with setting aside a service that focuses on non-Christians.

There are lots of hours left in a week (and on Sunday) to have a service focused on Christians.

[Corin Stormhands]

Agreed xzins. Especially in the larger churches. We have other times for prayer meeting, Bible study, education and more all throughout the week.

Our primary focus on Sunday morning is ~still~ corporate worship of the body. But nonbelievers are welcome.

[wmfights]

"Americans have a fear of learning. Just look at how publik skoolz have been dumbed down. Every other institution is bound to follow."
_______________________________

The point I'm trying to make is that evangelism involves creating an environment where people can feel free to ask questions. The true seeker will want more than pablum pretty quickly. However, if that environment doesn't exist how many seekers end up in churches that don't feed them.

At my church, in a large midwest city, our membership is approx 2,000. However, we have at services 1,000 people who are not members, some coming for 10+ years. 25% of our membership are former Roman Catholics. A great deal of our outreach is focused on letting people feel comfortable to ask questions, all kinds of adult Sunday school classes and in home evangelism.

The message on Sunday is ALWAYS straight from SCRIPTURE.

[Alex Murphy]

At my church, in a large midwest city, our membership is approx 2,000. However, we have at services 1,000 people who are not members, some coming for 10+ years. 25% of our membership are former Roman Catholics. A great deal of our outreach is focused on letting people feel comfortable to ask questions, all kinds of adult Sunday school classes and in home evangelism.

The message on Sunday is ALWAYS straight from SCRIPTURE.

You could be describing the same church that I go to! But I would counter by asking whether the message is always "straight from Scripture or if the message is solely scripture. I know lots of "seeker sensitive" churches who refuse to preach the scriptures themselves, instead preaching messages derived from them, with maybe a verse or two thrown in to prove the pastor's still reading the real stuff for himself.

Don't want to make those newbies feel guilty for not bringing a Bible!

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I'm pinging blue-duncan and xzins to your excellent post #60. I hope they read it.

To God alone goes the Glory. Not modern church growth theory that panders to the culture.

Amen.

While God can and does reside wherever He pleases, my experience in mega-churches left me reeling.

As I've said before, I have relatives in a very famous "mega-church" and I've attended Sunday services there. The heart of the service is always someone coming up and delivering a wrenching tale of debauchery and sin until they cleaned up their act. One time a cute 20-year-old blonde in high heels, shorts and halter top, spent 35 minutes detailing how she went from prostitution, heroin addiction, crystal meth addiction, four abortions and a broken jaw (?) to cleaner living through Christ.

Our kids were in the "audience" and I was appalled this X-rated theater was playing out in front of hundreds of kids.

They can say all they want that they are preaching God's word, but I think they're fooling themselves and simply titillating a large group of people who come to church on Sunday in order to attend the weekly programs -- AA, Weight-Watchers, "Divorced Partners, Three Kids and Two Dogs" (which alternates Tuesdays with "Divorced Partners, Two Kids and Three Dogs) and the Wednesday night beading class.

The real point here is not that these programs are not good and helpful in and of themselves. The real point is that for one crummy hour a week we should be able to sit our frazzled butts down and hear a solid sermon based on Scripture about God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

I think if we concentrated more on His activities, our own would be elevated without needing to reschedule our Blackberries.

One hour a week.

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" -- Matthew 15:9.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

There is lots of things right with setting aside a service that focuses on non-Christians. There are lots of hours left in a week (and on Sunday) to have a service focused on Christians.

You have that backwards, Pastor.

One hour a week for worship among a congregation of like-minded Christians who know whom they have believed and why they're sitting in those pews.

Every other hour of every day of the week can be given to anything and everything else.

One hour a week.

I think God expects that much of us.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Morning, Alex. Ping to 66 and 67.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

25% of our membership are former Roman Catholics.

God is good. 8~)

The message on Sunday is ALWAYS straight from SCRIPTURE.

Amen.

[Gamecock]

"But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men" -- Matthew 15:9.

Ahhh, morality based sermons: "Don't drink, don't smoke, don't chew and don't run with girls who do."

No Gospel, just rules (and for the most part man made ones.)

[Dr. Eckleburg]

And don't do crystal meth.

It wrecks the skin and God likes a clear complexion.

[wmfights]

"You could be describing the same church that I go to! But I would counter by asking whether the message is always "straight from Scripture or if the message is solely scripture."
_____________________________________

The message is always solely SCRIPTURE. I know because we bring our Bibles and hold our pastor accountable.

One of the benefits of being a part of a large church is the different classes that are always being taught. If you are driven to mature the resources are there.

[wmfights]

"The heart of the service is always someone coming up and delivering a wrenching tale of debauchery and sin until they cleaned up their act."
_______________________

I've gone through this, but only at the start of services. I love to hear how the LORD has transformed someone, but once in a while I would like someone from a well adjusted background, who was raised in the church, to stand up and witness. We have a big outreach to the "projects-high rise slums" and some of the stories are unbelievable.

[wmfights]

"One hour a week for worship among a congregation of like-minded Christians who know whom they have believed and why they're sitting in those pews."
______________________________________

Our services tend to last an hour and forty five minutes. It doesn't seem so long though, because once we get past announcements and into worship it's very moving.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Sure, there's a place for witnessing. But the heart of the service is the sermon. And so many churches have lost that, or at least shunted it off to the side.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

In fact, my recommendation to any pastor would be to get a copy of Spurgeon's sermons. It's so moving just to read them; I can only imagine what it would have been like to actually hear them.

John Knox, too.

Those men were preachers of the word.

[jude24]

What does that look like at a local church? We were part of a church plant in 2002. The Gamecock family was one of the first six families. When we left in 2004 because the Army told us to, there were almost 200 members. I visited this past summer and there are over 300. Monthly, there are new Baptisms, new members. There is no seeker sensitive nonsense. The sermons are hard as woodpecker lips. The music is piano, guitar, brass, and a fiddle (It's in Texas, OK?) Most of the songs are hymns that have been rearranged by our denominations college students.

As for the demographics, there are multimillionaire business men, and taxi drivers. Grocery stock boys and physicians. Collage students and retirees. Young families and empty nester's. Whites, Blacks and Hispanics. Military and civilians. Army and Air Force. Some people dance, some don't. Some have their hands in the air, some don't. Some are in suits, some are in shorts and flip flops.(gasp!)

This is a guess - educated, I think - but this works because the PCA doesn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's some good ideas in church growth - specifically, to make sure your traditions that aren't accessible to a modern 21st century audience (e.g. styles of music, service formats, Bible translations, etc.) don't get in the way of the message.

That's what the PCA does right, that's what Bethlehem Baptist does right. The problem is that "church growth" is a bumper-sticker slogan. Of course they have good ideas - and some bad ones.

[jude24]

Church growth experts say move to the suburbs where the people live. This church is in the middle of a large city and people drive 30 minutes from nearby towns and from all parts of the city to worship.

Incidentally, I've come to the conclusion that we don't need many more, if any, suburban Evangelical churches - but we need a whole lot more urban ones.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

It's truly amazing what men went through to preach the Gospel of God's grace.

JOHN KNOX

[RobbyS]

This RC thinks that Dr. Mohler is closer to the mark. Ad hominem arguments against him can also be used against his master Augustine. His "institutes" deserve to be evaluated in accordance with its merits. Likewise Calvinism. If Anglo-America has an intellectual tradition it is founded on his teachings.