On Regeneration

http://www.reformed.org/documents/index.html?mainframe=index_docu.html ^ | 5/3/02 | George Whitefield

[RnMomof7]

Winston do you equally object to God having predetermined your life?

[ThomasMore]

Show me any early Christian writing that agrees or promotes this view.

BTW, you didn't answer this.

[oremus]

"Repent, and be baptized . . . for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38)

[ThomasMore]

We believe it is a sovereign act of God that preceeds salvation....and you??

I can't explain it any more precisely than this; so here you have it...

The Roman Catechism (Ad parochos, De bapt., 2, 2, 5) defines baptism thus: Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration by water in the word (per aquam in verbo). St. Thomas Aquinas (III:66:1) gives this definition: "Baptism is the external ablution of the body, performed with the prescribed form of words." Later theologians generally distinguish formally between the physical and the metaphysical defining of this sacrament. By the former they understand the formula expressing the action of ablution and the utterance of the invocation of the Trinity; by the latter, the definition: "Sacrament of regeneration" or that institution of Christ by which we are reborn to spiritual life. The term "regeneration" distinguishes baptism from every other sacrament, for although penance revivifies men spiritually, yet this is rather a resuscitation, a bringing back from the dead, than a rebirth. Penance does not make us Christians; on the contrary, it presupposes that we have already been born of water and the Holy Ghost to the life of grace, while baptism on the other hand was instituted to confer upon men the very beginnings of the spiritual Life, to transfer them from the state of enemies of God to the state of adoption, as sons of God. The definition of the Roman Catechism combines the physical and metaphysical definitions of baptism. "The sacrament of regeneration" is the metaphysical essence of the sacrament, while the physical essence is expressed by the second part of the definition, i.e. the washing with water (matter), accompanied by the invocation of the Holy Trinity (form). Baptism is, therefore, the sacrament by which we are born again of water and the Holy Ghost, that is, by which we receive in a new and spiritual life, the dignity of adoption as sons of God and heirs of God's kingdom.

 

[RnMomof7]

FIRST, Only by an outward profession. And in this sense, every one that is called a Christian, or baptized into Christ's church, may be said to be in Christ. But that this is not the sole meaning of the apostle's phrase before us, is evident, because then, every one that names the name of Christ, or is baptized into his visible church, would be a new creature. Which is notoriously false, it being too plain, beyond all contradiction, that comparatively but few of those that are "born of water," are "born of the Spirit" likewise; to use another spiritual way of speaking, many are baptized with water, which were never baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Which position...there are a couple of different observations there..I am trying to understand which one you mean

[RnMomof7]

Baptism is, therefore, the sacrament by which we are born again of water and the Holy Ghost, that is, by which we receive in a new and spiritual life, the dignity of adoption as sons of God and heirs of God's kingdom.

So is every baptised man saved?

[ThomasMore]

I believe that Catholics believe in Baptisimal regeneration correct?

Yes, but see my post #24 as to how.

[ThomasMore]

So is every baptised man saved?

Here we go again. You're mixing regeneration and salvation together as though they are one and the same. As to the answer, I've already said, NO!

[RnMomof7]

"Repent, and be baptized . . . for the remission of sins" (Acts 2:38)

Did you repent BEFORE you were baptised?

There are different views of Baptism within the protestant community. But the idea of repetence preceeding baptism is not lost on the Baptists among us:>))

[RnMomof7]

Here we go again. You're mixing regeneration and salvation together as though they are one and the same. As to the answer, I've already said, NO!

See Tom that is a distinction we would make...A regenerated man would seek after Christ because his eyes are open and his totally depraved will now turned to Christ.

We believe everyone that is regenerated by the Holy Spirit will be saved.

[CCWoody]

Back to the old shell game. "All men should repent" but only a few can do so (i.e. are capable of doing so) because God prevents the others from repenting because he damned them, yada, yada, yada. How Clintonian.

Same old winston. Yep, Jerry, I'll admit it. Calvinism teaches that God actively prevents people who want to repent from actually doing so. Calvinism is a monster. Oh, the horrors of it all. Such fatalism and fanaticism. <SARCASM>

BTW, winston have you figured out my gospel question yet. It might help if you abandoned your false gospel beliefs that your Arminian forefathers gave you and actually read what the Bible says: 5 words exactly to name it; 3 words exactly to express it. After you understand this, then you may begin to preach it.

[oremus]

I see where you are going with this. Is Baptism merely symbolic to you?

[ThomasMore]

His concept of separating the water and the spirit is what I disagree with. It is fundamentally at odds with the Catholic teaching of Baptism. In baptism, one is regenerated through water and the Spirit.

Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God."  Nicode'mus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?"  Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [John 3:3-5]

[ThomasMore]

So back to my question in #15.

When is a person regenerated?

[oremus]

Just a note: I have to travel this evening, and I may have a working computer where I am going, but then again I may not. So if I disappear until Sunday night that's why. Hopefully I'll be able to check in later. =)

[Jerry_M]

I wonder whether any of you non-Calvinists (of whatever variety) who have commented here have bothered to actually read the sermon by George Whitfield contaned at the top of this thread?

[ThomasMore]

Show me any early Christian writing(s) that agrees with or promotes this view.

BTW, you STILL didn't answer this.

[ThomasMore]

I read it; made a small observation and then asked a simple question. See #12

[CCWoody]

We believe everyone that is regenerated by the Holy Spirit will be saved.

Well, our view of Baptism is not John 3 as it seems for the RC here. Nor is it having the Holy Spirit hanging out in a bucket of water waiting to regenerate: He blows where He will.

[CCWoody]

Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. [John 3:3-5]

Yep, I knew it. You RC do believe that John 3 is teaching Baptism. Now, how could Nicodemus be expected and even chided by Jesus for not knowing about Baptism, which is an entirely New Testament idea?