God So Loved The World

http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_52.html ^ | 5/3/02 | Prof. Homer C. Hoeksema

[oremus]

Here's a little bit of trivia for ya'! How many times does Jesus mention the church and how many times does Jesus mention the kingdom of God?

That doesn't prove a thing.

BTW, I might be more concerned if I hadn't already met the Lord.

Interesting. Did he personally tell you that you are correct in following the henceforth developed doctrine of Pope John Calvin? Careful now. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[CCWoody]

That doesn't prove a thing.

If you knew what that meant, you'd understand. Your Romainism has blinded you.

P.S. here's a hint: It means, among other things, that your boy has lost the gospel.

Interesting. Did he personally tell you that you are correct in following the henceforth developed doctrine of Pope John Calvin? Careful now.

Nope, I'm not the one who lets another man tell me what to believe. I've never even read Calvin.

No king but King Jesus. So it was when the saints were slaughtered in droves by Rome in Ceaser's day, so it is today.

If you knew the gospel, you'd understand.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Hey, Sis, is it just me, or is nearly every thread Catholic and are we outnumbered? 15 posted on 5/5/02 7:21 AM Pacific by CCWoody

Sorry about that... I rarely FReep on weekends. :-(

God bless and keep...

OP

[RnMomof7]

Sorry about that... I rarely FReep on weekends. :-(

or week days as of late:>( Hi bud!

[Logophile]

Millions upon millions of men, from both the old and the new dispensation, have never heard of the love of God. That is, it was never preached to them. But could it possibly be that God would love any man, love him so greatly that He gave His only begotten Son for him, and then would never tell that man of His love? What a strange love of God that would be!

Yes, it would be strange. You know, of course, that LDS doctrine is that every man has the opportunity to be told of the love of God, before the resurrection. If that is true (and I believe it is), then the author will have to rethink his interpretation of John 3:16.

John 3:16 is really not that hard to understand. It means what it says. God does love the entire world -- every man, woman, and child who has lived, does live, and will live on the earth -- and for that reason He gave His Son.

Incidentally, John 3:17-21 is worth reading as well.

[restornu]

Today in church we were studying Numbers, and how God had to continue to punish those who were so rebellious. As I sat there listing to the lesson it occurred me, all that was written was how the Lord was so tick off with the Israelites and nothing was said at sometimes how he had shown love and nature them, (you know in the like love and charity?) it is void of all of that took place and while the people and the Lord had a fall out. If no one knew the Lord they think all he did was scold and punish people.

[Hank Kerchief]

These are but two of the many passages in the Bible in which the term "world" appears. But wherever that term appears in Scripture, and whatever else that term "world" may mean, you can put every passage to the test, and you will discover that the word never simply means all men.

Well thank goodness for that. I was always worried that this verse, 1 John 5:19, "...the whole world lieth in wickedness," really included "all men" as in "all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God," which would have included you and I.

Ah...I guess it does, doesn't it? I guess old Prof. Homer C. Hoeksema was wrong about this too, like the rest of his fantastic circumlocution.

(How I wish good men would be careful about their generalizations.)

Hank

[oremus]

Your propaganda has told you I don't know the Gospel, and that I worship a man other than Christ. The fact is, LOL, you don't know what you are talking about.

Here's a real Saint (died 1938, age 33) who really saw and spoke to THE WORD -- and HIS WORDS (approved):

Jesus' words to Saint Faustina:

"In the Old Covenant I sent prophets wielding thunderbolts to My people. Today I am sending you with My mercy to the people of the whole world. I do not want to punish aching mankind, but I desire to heal it, pressing it to My Merciful Heart. (1588)

It's a sign for the end times; after it will come the day of justice. While there is still time, let them have recourse to the fount of My mercy; let them profit from the Blood and Water which gushed forth for them. (848) Before I come as a just Judge, I first open wide the doors of My mercy. He who refuses to pass through the doors of My mercy must pass through the doors of My justice... (1146)

I desire to grant unimaginable graces to those souls who trust in My mercy. (687) Let them approach this sea of mercy with great trust. Sinners will attain justification, and the just will be confirmed in good. Whoever places his trust in My mercy will be filled with My divine peace at the hour of death. (1520)

"The graces of mercy," Jesus told Sister Faustina, "are drawn by means of one vessel only, and that is - trust. The more a soul trusts, the more it will receive. Souls that trust boundlessly are a great comfort to Me, because I pour all the treasures of My graces into them. I rejoice that they ask for much, because it is My desire to give much, very much. (1578) The soul which will trust in My mercy is most fortunate, because I Myself take care of it. (1273) No soul that has called upon My Mercy has been disappointed or brought to shame. I delight particularly in a soul which has placed its trust in My goodness." (1541)

2. Mercy

expresses the disposition we should have towards every human being.

Jesus told Sister Faustina, "I demand ... deeds of mercy, which are to arise out of love for Me. You are to show mercy to your neighbors always and everywhere. You must not shrink from this or try to excuse or absolveyourself from it. I am giving you three ways of exercising mercy toward your neighbor: the first - by deed, the second - by word, the third - by prayer. In these three degrees is contained the fullness of mercy and it is an unquestionnable proof of love for Me. By this means a soul glorifies and pays reverence to My Mercy." (742)

This attitude of an active love of neighbor is also a condition for obtaining graces.

Jesus recalled the Gospel maxim when He said, "If a soul does not exercise mercy somehow or other, it will not obtain My mercy on the day of judgement. Oh, if only souls knew how to gather eternal treasure for themselves, they would not be judged, for they would forestall My judgement with their mercy. (1317) My daughter, know that My Heart is mercy itself. From this sea of mercy, graces flow out upon the whole world. ... I desire that your heart be an abiding place of My mercy. I desire that this mercy flow out upon the whole world through your heart. Let no one who approaches you go away without that trust in My mercy which I so ardently desire for souls. (1777)

Jesus' words to Sister Faustina:

When you go to Confession, to this fountain of My mercy, the Blood and Water which came forth from My Heart always flow down upon your soul and ennoble it. Every time you go to Confession, immerse yourself entirely in My mercy, with great trust, so that I may pour the bounty of My grace upon your soul. When you approach the conessional, know this, that I Myself am waiting there for you. I am only hidden in the priest, but I Myself act in your soul. Here the misery of the soul meets the God of mercy. Tell souls that from this fount of mercy souls draw graces solely with the vessel of trust. If their trust is great, there is no limit to My generosity. The torrents of grace inundate humble souls. The proud remain always in poverty and misery, because My grace turns away from them to humble souls. (1602)

Tell souls where they are to look for solace; that is, in the Tribunal of Mercy (i.e. Sacrament of Confession). There the greatest miracles take place (and) are incessantly repeated. To avail oneself of this miracle, it is not necessary to go on a great pilgrimate or to carry out some external ceremony; it suffices to come with faith to the feet of My representative and to reveal to him one's misery and the miracle of Divine Mercy will be fully demonstrated. Were a soul like a decaying corpse so that from a human standpoint, there would be no (hope of) restoration and everything would already be lost, it is not so with God. The miracle of Divine Mercy restores that soul in full. Oh, how miserable are those who do not take advantage of the miracle of God's mercy! You will call out in vain, but it will be too late. (1448)

Jesus' words to Sister Faustina:

I desire to unite Myself with human souls... When I come to a human heart in Holy Communion, My hand are full of all kinds of graces which I want to give to the soul. But souls do not even pay any attention to Me; they leave Me to Myself and busy themselves with other things. Oh; how sad I am that souls do not recognize Love! (1385)

Oh, how painful it is to Me that souls so seldom unite themselves to Me in Holy Communion. I wait for souls, and they are indifferent toward Me. I love them tenderly and sincerely, and they distrust Me. I want to lavish My graces on them, and they do not want to accept them. They treat Me as a dead object, whereas My Heart is full of love and mercy. (1447)

For more info see: THE DIVINE MERCY

[CCWoody]

Your propaganda has told you I don't know the Gospel, and that I worship a man other than Christ. The fact is, LOL, you don't know what you are talking about.

Ummm!, was any of this post suppose to be the gospel? Let me help you out. The gospel has a name (exactly 5 words) and the gospel can be expressed (exactly 3 words). Then you may know what you need in order to preach it.

As for me, I will have "No king but Jesus!"

Everywhere this rulership is affirmed in the NT, in fact, *the Lordship of Christ is the fundamental confession of the Christian faith*. The Bible says, "If you confess with your mouth, ‘Jesus is Lord’ and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." These ideas are intimately associated. His being raised from the dead and his lordship which is the end of the trail so to speak. He was raised, but he didn’t stop when he back to earth. He kept going until he was enthroned in heaven. And so the Christian confesses that Jesus Christ has been raised from the dead and is the ruler of the nations. This was the issue that lead to the slaughter of Christians for 300 years in the Roman Empire, because they refused to pay homage to Caesar. And they were told to just burn a little incense. You don’t even have to mean it. They said that they would not even give the indication that there is anyone above Christ. We will be loyal citizens. We will do what the law says. But we will not pay homage to another lord. Jesus is Lord. And for that they were sawn in two. They were cut up, they were stabbed, they were brutally mistreated. They were tarred and burned and they were fed to the lions for the simple, little confession that Jesus is Lord. It is the backbone of the Christian confession. It is the beginning of the Christian life and it will come to a test every now in then in church history.

This is seen to be central in the preaching of Paul as he went to the synagogues. For example in the book of ACT 13 he preached this way at verse 32 "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers" and that means the gospel. We tell you the gospel. And again these ideas are associated in Paul’s book to the Romans. In chapter 1 he introduces his book this way. ROM 1:1ff "Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and set apart for the gospel of God -- the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God," Son of man, Son of God. Jesus Christ our Lord. The Son is the absolute sovereign ruler and possessor of all nations. By the expressed appointment of the Father who has entrusted all judgment to him. ~~ Jewish Christian Presbyter the rev. Steve Schlissel, "Messiah Rules the Nations"

So, don't be suprised if I say "No king but Jesus!" and that I will not kiss any other hand but His. I don't even want the appearance that he is not the Lord.

Here's a real Saint (died 1938, age 33) who really saw and spoke to THE WORD -- and HIS WORDS (approved):

Oh, that's right, you Romans get offended if anybody calls themselves a saint. I need to remember my alternate designation in the eyes of God: "a favorite son!" I will try to keep it straight that around you Romans I am a favorite son of God and around the saints I am a saint.

Oh, BTW, I really have met the Lord. I have tasted the TRUE reality that HE IS.

[oremus]

What on earth are you talking about? Of course, "No king but Jesus!" And, in case you didn't know, the Christians who were sawn in two were Catholic! There was no other faith!

And my post (material) was in response to your comment that you had literally seen Jesus, as if he had confirmed you in your false doctrine.

[drstevej]

Protestant terminology primer:

I really have met the Lord.

Does not mean a Christophany. It does mean he has entered into a personal and spiritual relationship with Christ through faith.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Jesus' words to Sister Faustina: I desire to unite Myself with human souls... When I come to a human heart in Holy Communion, My hand are full of all kinds of graces which I want to give to the soul. But souls do not even pay any attention to Me; they leave Me to Myself and busy themselves with other things. Oh; how sad I am that souls do not recognize Love!

What in the name of Hell (my words chosen carefully) is this strange and weak "jesus", who whimpers and whines and cannot effect His heart's desire?

I do not know this strange "jesus" of "sister Faustina" (or perhaps I should better say, sister FAUST).
I do not know him. He is a stranger to me.

This weak and defeated "jesus" is an unknown foreigner to me.

My Jesus is Lord. The Son is the absolute sovereign ruler and possessor of all nations. By the expressed appointment of the Father who has entrusted all judgment to him.

Since "Sister Faustina" and I do not worship the same "jesus", I am prepared to say that one of us worships the Lord of Hosts, and one of us worships a deceitful and defeated demon from hell.

So --- Who worships the deceitful and defeated demon from hell?

Personally, my money is on.... "sister FAUST."

[oremus]

Oh I'm so sorry you said those words. And yes, those are some of his "NICE" words to St. Faustina. You wouldn't want to hear the other side - it's not so pretty for some.

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

I desire to unite Myself with human souls... When I come to a human heart in Holy Communion, My hand are full of all kinds of graces which I want to give to the soul. But souls do not even pay any attention to Me; they leave Me to Myself and busy themselves with other things. Oh; how sad I am that souls do not recognize Love!

SIDE CHARISMATIC ISSUE -- The interesting thing, brother Woody, from a Charismatic perspective, is the degree of correspondence we find between the Mormons, and the Islamics, and the Hyper-Charismatics, and the Mystery Romanists.

To both the Orthodox Cessationists (such as my own OP pastor) and the Orthodox Continuationists (such as yourself, the_doc, and myself), the pneumatological (Holy Spirit) question is, the nature of the Spirit's illumination in regard to completed Revelation.

---

• The Cessationists (such as my own OP pastor) say that the greater works of Illumination -- in regard to the finished Revelation -- are already complete;
• the Orthodox Continuationists say that Illumination -- in regard to the finished Revelation -- still yet continue. (An example might be the record of John Knox , founder of the Presbyterian Church):John Knox prophesied the future
  ...he thus addressed himself to her [Queen Mary] husband, Henry, Lord Darnley, while in the king’s seat in the High Church of Edinburgh: "Have you, for the pleasure of that dainty dame, cast the psalm-book into the fire? The Lord shall strike both head and tail." Both King and queen died violent deaths. He likewise said, when the Castle of Edinburgh held out for the Queen against the Regent, that "the Castle should spue out the captain (meaning Sir William Kircaldy of Grange) with shame, that he should not come out at the gate, but over the wall, and that the tower called Davis Tower, should run like a sand-glass; which was fulfilled a few years after -- Kircaldy being obliged to come over the wall on a ladder, with a staff in his hand, and the said fore-work of the Castle running down like a sand-brae." (page 57)...

  ..."If you act thus, God will be with you; if otherwise, He shall deprive you of all these benefits, and your end shall be shameful and ignominious." This threatening, as Morton to his melancholy experience confessed, was literally accomplished. At his execution, in June 1581, he called to mind John Knox’s words, and acknowledged, that in what he had said to him he had been a true prophet. (page 61)

---

And what is the Testimony of either position, whether Orthodox Cessationist or Orthodox Continuationist? The Book of Revelation is CLOSED. John Knox claimed no new Revelation; he never imagined that there was any further revelation forthcoming. He only spoke as God gave him the light to see the outworking of the existing revelation. (Note that NONE of John Knox's "prophecies" contained ANY doctrine, only "foretelling" -- if Knox is Right, DOCTRINE is COMPLETED.)

The Orthodox Cessationist believes that all Revelation is COMPLETE. Finis. End of Story.
And likewise, the Orthodox Continuationist believes that, though your young men might still seem visions, and your old men mught still dream Dreams (hello, John Knox), it is all in referential regard to a Revelation which is COMPLETE (this belief the Orthodox Continuationist holds in common with the Orthodox Cessationist... we disagree as to the mode of illumination, but we agree that the REVELATION is COMPLETE).

By contrast... the Hyper-Charismatic, and the Mormon, and the Islamist, and the Mystery Romanist... they all still have something to add.

• The Hyper-Charismatic believes that he hears New Words of Holy Babble... never mind the Canon of Scripture.
• The Mormon believes that he hears New Words of Moron (pardon me, "moroni")... never mind the Canon of Scripture.
• The Islamist believes that he hears New Words of Mohammed... never mind the Canon of Scripture.
• And the Mystery Romanist believes that he hears New Words of "Sister FAUST"... never mind the Canon of Scripture.

If they agree in nothing else, they agree in this: The Scripture is Not Enough.

For us, the Scripture is Enough.

May the Scripture feed us always,
OP

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

Oh I'm so sorry you said those words.

Oh, gee whillikers ---- I'm not sorry.

I have absolutely no idea who is this "jesus" of the Romanist "Sister FAUST".

I do not know this "jesus".
This "jesus" is strange to me.
This weak and defeated "jesus" is an unknown foreigner to me.

My Jesus is Lord. The Son is the absolute sovereign ruler and possessor of all nations. By the expressed appointment of the Father who has entrusted all judgment to him.

My Jesus will take a bull-whip to "sister Faust's" imaginary "jesus" and run that demon out of the Temple of the Father God any day of the week...
...and especially on the Sabbath.

And you can count on it.

Sister Faust's "jesus" strikes me as little more than a weak and defeated imp-demon from hell... let her demon save her if he can.

My Jesus is Lord. He does whatsoever He pleases.

Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors. Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

[oremus]

YOUR Jesus, which is a false representation of Who HE REALLY is, would have let them stone the adulterous woman. Was THAT weak of Him, too???

I just told you there are many, many more words of Jesus to St. Faustina which are QUITE SEVERE, and would seem to apply to you, now that I think about it. Although I cannot read your heart, suffice it to say that you are bordering, if not outright committing, the sin against the Holy Spirit. And this doctrine of yours is downright presumptive also. Who are YOU to say who God loves and who He does not??? And according to your vain theories, how do you KNOW for SURE that YOU are one that He loves? You have a very twisted personal interpretation of Scripture. God created all people - did he create some to love and some to hate and exclude from His Kingdom? NOT MY GOD. People are not made to be robots - they have FREE WILL to choose to love God, or to choose not to love Him. But that does NOT mean He does not love them! THAT IS NOT PROPER SCRIPTURE INTERPRETATION! I don't care WHAT you say. This "weak Jesus" you speak of spoke from the Cross "I thirst" - he thirsts for the love of his creatures and the salvation of their souls! And if you consider yourself to be a Christian, then where is your love for others? It's not very evident, if you have any. All I see is an air of superiority and presumption of God's Mercy - your basic arrogance, PRIDE and lack of HUMILITY. God have mercy on you!

"BLESSED ARE THE MERCIFUL..." Mt 5:7

"He who refuses to pass through the doors of my mercy must pass through the doors of my JUSTICE." Those aren't WEAK words to me - you have been warned! I will now shake the dust off my feet from you and your venomous pride and arrogance...

[oremus]

Repent and be saved, OP.

My Jesus is Lord. The Son is the absolute sovereign ruler and possessor of all nations. By the expressed appointment of the Father who has entrusted all judgment to him.

To the contrary, it seems to me that He apparently has entrusted all judgment to YOU.

[drstevej]

NPBS!

[DouglasKC]

It is either...or. Either God loves all men; or he loves only His elect.

It's not an either/or...there are two classes of those saved. One is the elect, and one is rest.

The elect are those that will serve as kings in priest in God's millenial kingdom. The elect will take part in the first resurrection:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the witness of Jesus and for the Word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast nor his image, nor had received his mark on their foreheads, nor in their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. The second death has no authority over these, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him a thousand years.

The elect are these people. But it's not everyone who will be offered salvation. It's just that the elect get salvation before others.

After the thousand years, there is another resurrection, one in which the non-elect are resurrected and given the opportunity for salvation:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

How does Calvinism interpet this?

[RnMomof7]

Can I ask you something? I do not mean to be unkind but how do you know that this person really heard Jesus?

I worked in mental health for years and there were many that "heard" God speak to them..

See that is the problem with extra biblical revelation..we can listen to it..but we had best never take it to heart and live by it...Satan is the great deceiver...