God So Loved The World

http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_52.html ^ | 5/3/02 | Prof. Homer C. Hoeksema

[RnMomof7]

After the thousand years, there is another resurrection, one in which the non-elect are resurrected and given the opportunity for salvation:

Doug...scripture please that any of the non elect will be saved

[Codie]

Why on earth would you not take the message of mercy to heart?

What could Satan possible gain by even proclaiming such a message?

[DouglasKC]

After the thousand years, there is another resurrection, one in which the non-elect are resurrected and given the opportunity for salvation:
Doug...scripture please that any of the non elect will be saved

The following sequence takes place after the 1000 year millenial kingdom. The elect have already gained their salvation...either at the rapture or at Christs second coming depending on your belief:

Rev 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and Him sitting on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And a place was not found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, the small and the great, stand before God. And books were opened, and another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Note: The dead great and small can't be the elect. They have already been raptured, translated, become Christ's at the beginning of the 1000 years. The elect are the dead in Christ and those who are alive at Christs coming.

Also interesting is they are judged on what is written in the "books", not just what is in the Book of Life. The books is greek "biblion". What other books that set God's standards are there but the books of the bible?

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead in it. And death and hell delivered up the dead in them. And each one of them was judged according to their works.

The dead are being judged. Again, can't be the elect because they don't need to be judged. They are the elect, those elected to be kings and priests in the millenial kingdom.

Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the Lake of Fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire.

People are being judged. If the fate of all of them is to be thrown into the lake of fire, then there's no reason for a "judgement". Remember, they are judged on the "books", which can only be the books of scripture.

Act 24:15 And I have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Here Paul differentiates between the elect and the just. Paul didn't say here that the "elect" are resurrected, but the "just".

I would be interested to know how Calvinists interpet this passage.

[CCWoody]

What on earth are you talking about? Of course, "No king but Jesus!" And, in case you didn't know, the Christians who were sawn in two were Catholic! There was no other faith!

Don’t you mean "No king but the Pope!" for isn’t he the "vicar of Christ" and represent Him here today? When I say "No king but King Jesus" I mean that the Lord of my life Reigns today in the midst of His enemies. And if those early Christians that were sawn in two were Catholic what does their blood have to say about your bowing down to the Pope and kissing him? No, when I say "No king but King Jesus" I mean that I do not bow before some "vicar of Christ" because I have Christ who Reigns today, now; no need for a "vicar of Christ."

This was the issue that lead to the slaughter of Christians for 300 years in the Roman Empire, because they refused to pay homage to Caesar. And they were told to just burn a little incense. You don’t even have to mean it. They said that they would not even give the indication that there is anyone above Christ. We will be loyal citizens. We will do what the law says. But we will not pay homage to another lord. Jesus is Lord. ~ Steve Schlissel

And I will not even give the indication that there is anyone above Christ or even beside Christ or even representing Christ whose hand I need to kiss. And I would advise to only kiss the Son lest you perish.

And my post (material) was in response to your comment that you had literally seen Jesus, as if he had confirmed you in your false doctrine.

Divine TRUTH is self-authenticating:

In fact, it would seem strange if God revealed himself in his Son Jesus Christ and inspired the record of that revelation in the Bible, but did not provide a way for ordinary people to know it. Stated most simply, the common path to sure knowledge of the REAL Jesus is this: Jesus, as he is revealed in the Bible, has a glory--an excellence, a spiritual beauty--that can be see as self-evidently true. It is like seeing the sun and knowing that it is light and not dark, or like tasting honey and knowing that it is sweet and not sour. There is no long chain of reasoning from premises to conclusions. There is a direct apprehension that this person is true and his glory is the glory of God.

The apostle Paul described this path to knowledge of Jesus in 2 Corinthians 4:4-6:

The god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God…. For God, who said, "Light shall shine out of darkness," is the one who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

Notice that Paul speaks of God's enlightening our hearts (and in the work of creation) to apprehend "the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ." He is talking about people who have never seen the historical Jesus. How can they know him and be sure of him? What they "see" is the verbal portrayal of Jesus in the Gospel, that is, in the apostolic preaching of Christ. This portrayal, Paul says, accompanied by God's shining "in our hearts," appears to us as what is really is--"the glory of God in… Christ," or as "the glory of Christ… the image of God."

You can see that two things make this path possible. One is the reality of the glory of Jesus Christ shining through his portrayal in the Bible. The other is the work of God to open the eyes of our blinded hearts to see this glory. This is very different from God "telling us" that the Bible is true. It is rather, God's enabling us to see what is really there. This is an important difference. If God whispered in our ear, as it were, that the Jesus of the Bible is true, then the whispering would have the final authority and everything would hang on that. But that is not the path I see in the Bible nor the path I follow. Rather Jesus himself, and his divinely inspired portrayal in the Bible, have the final authority.

The practical effect of this path is that I do not ask you to pray for a special whisper from God to decide if Jesus is real. Rather I ask you to look at the Jesus of the Bible. Look at him. Don't close your eyes and hope for a word of confirmation. Keep your eyes open and fill them with the full portrait of Jesus provided in the Bible. If you come to trust Jesus Christ as Lord and God, it will be because you see in him a divine glory and excellence that simply is what it is--TRUE.

Sometimes this path is called the "testimony of the Holy Spirit." The old catechisms say it this way: "The Spirit of God, bearing witness by and with the Scriptures in the heart of man, is alone able to fully persuade it that they are the very Word of God." Be sure to notice that the Spirit persuades "by and with the Scriptures." He does not skirt the Scriptures and substitute private revelations about the Scriptures. He removes the blindness of hostility and rebellion, and thus opens the eyes of our hearts to see the self-evident brightness of the divine beauty of Christ.

• 2 Cor 3:18 We all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

Beholding is becoming. Seeing Christ saves and sanctifies. ~ John Piper Seeing and Savoring Jesus Christ

You have, unfortunately, replaced the Bible with "secret whispers" from your prophet "Sister Faustina." God did not give us the Word so that it would need to be intrepreted by a special group. Nor did He want us to ask for a special secret whisper to decide if Jesus is real or to listen to the revelations of "Sister Faustina" to "confirm" the Bible or to "add" to the Bible or "correct" the Bible. If he could not protect His Word, then He be not God. He does not skirt the Scriptures and substitute "Popish" revelations about the Scriptures. He removes the blindness of hostility and rebellion, and thus opens the eyes of our hearts to see the self-evident brightness of the divine beauty of Christ and the wonderful and awesome truths contained in it.

This is what the Bible specifically says regarding gaining the wisdom of it that is hid in Christ (Col 2:3) and stored up for the upright (Proverbs 2:7), thus available only for the elect:

Proverbs 2:1-6 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;
So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding;
Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding;
If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures;
Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.
For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

Notice that this passage does not say to "pray for a secret whisper" of confirmation if a particular passage in the Bible is true or listen to "Sister Faustina." Nor does it say seek knowledge in a special revelation from a vision of the "Mother of God" or listen to the "Popish" revelations about the Scriptures. Nor does it say that after we do this that God will send a prophet to give us a "secret whisper" to give us the wisdom. Scriptures simply say then you shall understand... and find the knowledge of God.

So, I have seen Jesus, the real Jesus of the Bible, and I have also seen and experienced Jesus in other interesting ways. But the Lord does not give me a secret whisper to tell me that this is true or that is true. He does not say bow to the Pope and listen to "Popish" revelations.

Oh, but He has a REALITY which the kingdom within me simply must acknowledge from the knees. It is the only true Reality. HE IS. Simple as that and good news to boot; HE IS. All else will be shaken until nothing is left that can be shaken. And the voltaries of Rome simply will not stand.

You should come and taste my Jesus; experience the Lion and behold the Lamb.

[drstevej]

Profound.

I predict a shallow response (not a prophetic gift, just FR experience).

[CCWoody]

May the Scripture feed us always,

Yep! I have the "honey pot" and the more I understand what the gospel really is, the more I understand just how big the "honey pot" really is.

Were I have to have a vision or a dream that was contrary to the scripture in any way, then it be not Jesus. And that includes a vision or a dream telling me what to believe about the scripture. For then I would be a follower of secret visions and they would be the ultimate authority over the very Word itself. And if I get too carried away, then I am nothing more than an insane fanatic.

[Codie]

If your uncertain about the meaning of a particular passage,who do you turn to for guidance?

[CCWoody]

I do not know this "jesus".
This "jesus" is strange to me.
This weak and defeated "jesus" is an unknown foreigner to me.

• John 10:26-30 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand. I and [my] Father are one.

And we know that if such a one tries to climb over the wall that is the Scripture and substitue strange revelations then such a one does not come in the name of Jesus, but is a thief and a robber come to devour.

• John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

So, we will run from such revelations that attempt to climb the walls of the Word for we know the Shepherd. We hear his voice and we follow Him. He has appointed walls to keep us.

[CCWoody]

What could Satan possible gain by even proclaiming such a message?

Satan gains the sowing of tares into the real church through the gospel of tare sowing! But, not to be overly concerned about it, the Lord intends to burn them.

[CCWoody]

The following sequence takes place after the 1000 year millenial kingdom. The elect have already gained their salvation...either at the rapture or at Christs second coming depending on your belief:

Your problem is that you are listening to the gospel of secret whispers and dreams through a dreamer who dreamed of a rapture of the church. Does this bother you at all?

[CCWoody]

I predict a shallow response (not a prophetic gift, just FR experience).

Thank you! I predict a silly response as well... (or no response)

[Codie]

You've never read the Devine Mercy Message have you?

[patent]

of "sister Faustina" (or perhaps I should better say, sister FAUST)

It is amazing to me that you cannot conduct a single simple debate with a Catholic without resorting to name calling. Why do you find it necessary to change the names of those who have passed on? Why be so insulting? It doesn’t make your point any clearer, it just causes others to shut their ears to your childish words. Since you chose the words, and that is their consistent and obvious effect, you are to blame for that.

Only a man with hate in his heart finds it necessary to speak like this. Sister Faustina had done nothing to you. Yet you can’t let her rest in peace, you have to mock her. Why? Does it make you a big man?

What in the name of Hell (my words chosen carefully) is this strange and weak "jesus", who whimpers and whines and cannot effect His heart's desire?

I do not know this strange "jesus" of "sister Faustina" (or perhaps I should better say, sister FAUST).

I do not know him. He is a stranger to me.

This weak and defeated "jesus" is an unknown foreigner to me.

Interesting. We have long since undertood this about you, but now you make it crystal clear. The Jesus of mercy is foreign to you. The only Jesus you seem to understand is the one who used the whip.

The use of the whip is but a small part of the complex and passionate God who became man. He made clear that He desired Mercy and Love while He was here on earth, but you seem incapable of understanding that.

It reminds me of the Muslim response to Christ. How could God’s prophet be weak, they ask. How could he suffer defeat, as you yourself ask:

This weak and defeated "jesus" is an unknown foreigner to me.

The Qur’an deals with this paradox by stating, in one translation: They slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them” (Sura 4:157). As in another translation the verse states “They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.” They understand that God made Judas resemble Jesus, and let the Romans nail him to the Cross instead. As you say, “This weak and defeated "jesus" is an unknown foreigner to me” as it is to them as well. They say, is not God powerful enough to protect his prophets? Do we not believe in his power to take a bull whip to this silly sister? Of course He has the power, but to think He would use it in this fashion ignores the Cross.

They simply cannot grasp the Cross. This is largely, IMHO, why Islam will never be a religion of peace, and as well, why you are not a poster of peace. The Cross is central. It has always been a stumbling block to the world, a folly to those who would not understand it. But without understanding it, you cannot understand the victory Christ won.

Just as Christ suffered and died, we must too suffer at times. We must take up our Crosses and follow Him. We will suffer. “It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?” Hebrews 12:7. For those who bear these sufferings, those who trust in the Lord as the revelations to Sr. Faustina say, are blessed “I desire to grant unimaginable graces to those souls who trust in My mercy.” Compare that with the Bible: “11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant; later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. “Matthew 12:7 “And if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice,' you would not have condemned the guiltless.”

It is truly sad that this Jesus is foreign to you. You say you do not recognize Him. He will say the same to you:

21 "Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'

23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'

24 "Every one then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house upon the rock;

---

32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,

33 and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.

34 Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;

35 for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,

36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.'

37 Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?

38 And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee?

39 And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'

40 And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'

41 Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;

42 for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,

43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'

44 Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'

45 Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'

46 And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

It goes without saying that the tactics of many around here remind me of one aspect of the Muslim concept of Jihad – taken in the non violent sense. To the Muslim there is nothing holy in a Christian defending his faith in Christ, but the Muslim who writes a rely to it is a holy warrior. He is free to say what he wishes, act however he likes, use insults, half-truths, and the like, so long as he is defending the true faith (Islam, in his view) the means are justified by the end.

This of course reminds me, are you going to stop by the Eucharist thread and support your claim that thousands of Catholic and thousands of Orthodox parishes are pro-abortion and yet adopt Catholic/Orthodox views?

Will you admit you can’t prove the four prongs you claimed they believed? Or will you leave that out there, never admitting you can't back up the claim?

patent  +AMDG

[OrthodoxPresbyterian]

This of course reminds me, are you going to stop by the Eucharist thread and support your claim that thousands of Catholic and thousands of Orthodox parishes are pro-abortion and yet adopt Catholic/Orthodox views?

Yes... I should have some time to FReep today. Thanks!!

[CCWoody]

If your uncertain about the meaning of a particular passage,who do you turn to for guidance?

• Proverbs 2:1-6 My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee; So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, and apply thine heart to understanding; Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, and liftest up thy voice for understanding; If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as for hid treasures; Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God. For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding.

Well, if I have inclined my ear and applied my heart and cried out and lifted my voice and sought after a rare treasure and the Lord still has not simply opened up my mind to understand then I will do the following: I will incline my ear and apply my heart and cry out and lift my voice and seek after the rare treasure. I will listen for the voice of the Lord and I will apply my heart to understanding and I will pray earnestly for knowledge and I will dig and dig and dig by reading the Scriptures because this knowledge is more precious than all jewels (Proverbs 3:15). I will trust in the Lord will all my heart and lean not on my own understanding (Proverbs 3:5).

What do you do, ask a man?

[CCWoody]

You've never read the Devine Mercy Message have you?

Didn't orenums (sp) post portions of it for us to examine? If not, then, by all means post portions of the gospel message for us to examine. However, I can assure you that the gospel preached in Rome is the gospel of tares and chaff. How do I know: Well, I know the Lord and I know His gospel.

Do you know the gospel?

[DouglasKC]

The following sequence takes place after the 1000 year millenial kingdom. The elect have already gained their salvation...either at the rapture or at Christs second coming depending on your belief:
Your problem is that you are listening to the gospel of secret whispers and dreams through a dreamer who dreamed of a rapture of the church. Does this bother you at all?

Doesn't bother me. I don't believe that the bible teaches there's a rapture of the church before Christ returns to establish his kingdom. I included it in there to make my point clearer. I didn't want anyone focusing on this one statement at the exclusion of my main point.

[CCWoody]

Oh, I see it now. I guess that you are Historic Pre-mill then?

[patent]

Thanks.

patent

[Codie]

gospel preached in Rome is the gospel of tares and chaff

All 1600 hundred years of it? God allowed this? Why?