If God isn't the 'designer of evil', then the above relects the only alternative!
Jean
Posted on 08/17/2002 9:39:51 PM PDT by RnMomof7
You and Rn need to talk.
I believe that there is a semantic difficulty here. I was saying earlier that I understand the Westminster Confession to remove God one or two steps from the responsibility for evil. In my mind, it's good that they do that.
1. see post 16 by Drstevej. It was a reply to my earlier question similar to the above.
2. I replied to DrJ as follows quoting section I of the portion of the W. Confession he had posted:
yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[66] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[67]
That's the part that I always considered to be the caveat. I read it saying, (1) calvinism doesn't claim God to be the author of sin, (2) calvinism doesn't claim that anyone's will is taken away, (3) the 2nd cause thing is hazy for me, but I'm taking it to mean that God created everything, but that doesn't mean that other things that flow from that original creation can't be laid at God's doorstep. Do I have this right?
However, my question was NOT "Is God the 'author' of evil?"
My questions were in response to your statement that "God...did not design evil."
Since, as you claim, God did not 'design' evil, I'm asking you (not RnMomof7) 'Who did?'
Does the 'system' of evil 'co-exist' along side of God? Or is God all that is eternal?
Jean
God is not the author of evil. He alone is eternal. They are both true.
So, then, God did design (create) evil?
Jean
I'm just not understanding the difference between God being responsible for every sparrow that falls, every leaf that grows, but God NOT being responsable for killing Holly Wells and Jessica Chapman. When does God control an event and When does He not control an event?
If I know that a train is going to arrive at 10:30 tommorrow, am I responsible for the train's on-time arrival? No.
Now if I am drving the train, then I am responsible. The blame for the deaths of those girls is at the feet of the perpetrators. Don't blame God. And Don't blame God for letting it happen either. The fact that it happened means only that God will work the event, eventually, to his glory.
God not only is driving the train, he designed and built it, laid the track, stoked up the coal and blew the wistle.
Again, I am just not understanding this way of thinking. God set in motion all events from the begining of the world, yet he did not kill these two girls. Either God causes every sparrow to fall or He doesn't; All or nothing, right?
What do you think is another possibility for the existence of evil that accomodates BOTH the existence of evil AND the fact that God did not author it? (My turn to ask a question.)
Are we all in agreement on these points? (I will be surprised if we are not.)
Yes, we can agree on this. God is powerful enough to totally pull the plug and stop the whole game completely. It all continues because He allows it.
I actually think the W. Confession is accurate in saying that "God is not the author of evil." By that, I think it means "the first primary proponent." God did create, and one could say, "Given foreknowledge that means God is directly liable." Given that the alternative is no existence for any of us if He hadn't created, then we need to answer how (1) evil can exist, and (2) God is not the author of it.
I find my answer in the grant of free choice to His creatures, but you might not. In either case, we agree that God is not the author of evil.
Why?
Why not just believe that God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? (Numbers 23:19)
Then who did?
"As your own West. confession says, "He is not the author of evil." "
Actually, as a member of a dutch reformed church, the WMC is not mine -I do not 'officially' subscribe to it. Our official confessions of faith are the Heidelberg Catechism, Belgic Confession and Canons of Dordt. That being said, we do not have a problem with the WMC, we just prefer the others.
As to your point, I have no disagreement here. God is not the author (perpetrator) of evil. He does no evil. However, being the author of evil and creating the 'system' called evil (or the 'possibility of evil' including 'what evil is') are separate issues.
You made the statement that God didn't 'design' evil. If he didn't, then my question to you remains, "Who did?"
"What do you think is another possibility for the existence of evil that accomodates BOTH the existence of evil AND the fact that God did not author it? (My turn to ask a question.)"
You still have yet to answer all mine, but I'll play. To answer your question, God creating the system of evil (what 'evil' is) is not the same thing as being the author/perpetrator of evil. Evil exists only because God declared it to exist. He designed what constitutes evil and how it would interact with the rest of his creation. (To deny evil is ~part~ of creation is to claim that it co-exists eternally alongside of God -a very gnostic/new age idea -or- someone else created it in which the Sovereignty of God, again, is removed.) God could just as well have created a creation in which evil was not possible and didn't exist. The fact that I don't know why he didn't do this does not remove his power to have done so.
I will post, as I have done many times before, Article 13 of the Belgic Confession:
Of Divine ProvidenceWe believe that the same God, after he had created all things, did not forsake them, or give them up to fortune or chance, but that he rules and governs them according to his holy will, so that nothing happens in this world without his appointment: nevertheless, God neither is the author of, nor can be charged with, the sins which are committed. For his power and goodness are so great and incomprehensible, that he orders and executes his work in the most excellent and just manner, even then, when devils and wicked men act unjustly. And, as to what he doth surpassing human understanding, we will not curiously inquire into, farther than our capacity will admit of; but with the greatest humility and reverence adore the righteous judgments of God, which are hid from us, contenting ourselves that we are disciples of Christ, to learn only those things which he has revealed to us in his Word, without transgressing these limits. This doctrine affords us unspeakable consolation, since we are taught thereby that nothing can befall us by chance, but by the direction of our most gracious and heavenly Father; who watches over us with a paternal care, keeping all creatures so under his power, that not a hair of our head (for they are all numbered), nor a sparrow, can fall to the ground, without the will of our Father, in whom we do entirely trust; being persuaded, that he so restrains the devil and all our enemies, that without his will and permission, they cannot hurt us. And therefore we reject that damnable error of the Epicureans, who say that God regards nothing, but leaves all things to chance.
Jean
Architect, designer, engineer, artist, author: they're the same to me. I don't see any difference in meaning between the terms "designer of evil" and "author of evil."
Then who created evil?
Jean
Then, who exactly is the "designer of evil"? Does evil exist outside to the agency of God? Is it something that is outside of His control, a factor that He "just has to live with"? (In other words, is it a blight on His perfection?)
We are dealing with semantic difficulties here, imo. I don't have any problem with that underline statement above.
If you give me a synonym for what you take "author" to be and a synonym for what you take "design" to be, then I'll probably feel free to use those words. I simply don't see any difference in the statements "God is not the author of evil" and "God is not the designer of evil." I'm truly not trying to be difficult. I honestly don't see them being different.
If God isn't the 'designer of evil', then the above relects the only alternative!
Jean
I'll humor you and put it a different way: "Where did the 'system' (what it is, how it works...) of evil come from?"
Jean
I'll take a stab at it.
What I see is that God created a spiritual/moral/physical realm that operates according to laws/principles, some of which we still have little to no grasp of.
The violation of God's design is what evil is. Therefore, evil was never created. It was performed by others who have free will by violating/rebelling against God's design. My understanding is that Satan was the first to rebel.
He was not, however, created to rebel. But he was created with free will.
In sum, God created free will and endowed his creatures with it. In that regard, he set up a situation in which evil could happen. He, though, never intended it or does it himself. Free creatures, though, can and did engage in rebellion against God....evil.
One final point. As the author of the universe, God's love and responsibility and POWER require Him to exercise control over His creation. In line with that, God actively engages in allowing or disallowing or counter-acting specific acts of evil, as in the case of Job. Satan was prevented from taking Job's life.....and, interestingly, not the lives of Job's children. As you calvinists are wont to say, there are some things too deep for us to fully explain.
Therefore, "He is not the author of evil."
If you will notice, everything God ever created was ALWAYS called good. Nothing was called evil.
Evil is the violation of, the rebellion against, the rejection of, the GOOD. The order created was good, true, life-enfused, holy, eternal......in short, it was perfect.
Evil is violation of God's good order and creation that was declared good. The truth of the bible PREVENTS calling evil, good and good, evil.
Therefore, when God pronounced it good, there was no evil in it. Even Satan was created good for so the verse above says. Created blameless.
Evil then, comes from the free will choice of lesser created beings.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.