Were blacks better off under apartheid?

Jewish World Review ^ | Jan. 9, 2001 | Walter Williams

[PaulKersey]

bump

[mafree]

..So universal, equal opportunity, affirmative action subjugation is preferable? Under racial subjugation, at least one group is treated like humans. Under universal subjugation, none are.

Subjugate yourself buddy- don't dream of coming my way just because I'm black.

[ExpandNATO]

..So universal, equal opportunity, affirmative action subjugation is preferable? Under racial subjugation, at least one group is treated like humans. Under universal subjugation, none are.

Subjugate yourself buddy- don't dream of coming my way just because I'm black.

Another attempt to dodge the question.

Is Rhodesia better now that the Mugabe regime is subjugating both blacks and whites (universal subjugation) than when the whites were ruling (racial subjugation)?

[FRlurker]

Perhaps some Caribbean nations.

[mafree]

If I wanted to dodge the question I wouldn't respond at all to you.

Only the people who live in Zimbabwe can decide if life there is better or not and by whose standards. Me, I'll speak to the situation here and say I'd rather be black in 2002 than in 1902, let alone 1802, and I challenge you or anyone else to prove to me I'd be better off subjugated than living as a free, equal citizen.

[Mind-numbed Robot]

......when he has to go head to head with an intellectual heavyweight - and believe me, I'm no big fan of Buchanan - he's usually toast.

I agree. I am a Buchanan fan most of the time except when he is trying to divide the vote for our best chance to defeat the left. That said, I supported Keyes in the primary but was full bore for Bush in the General Election.

I am hot and cold on O'Reilly, leaving me luke warm most of the time. I do like that he is willing to ask tough questions and stay with them until he gets an answer or it is obvious he guest is dodging the answer. I dislike his arrogance because he is often wrong and he is blind to it. His opinion of the South African situation is easily remedied through the facts, if he cared to look at them. Instead, he accepts the original liberal viewpoint and selective reporting which misinformed most of the world and led to the present conditions there. He needs to educate himself.

[Invisibleman]

You asked if there was a black run nation that was not in dire straits because of poor rulers- heres a sampling: niger, chad,ethiopia kenya tanzania, malawi, madagascar, mozambique, zambia,uganda, cental african republic, cameroon, gabon, equatorial guinea, benin, togo, ghana, sao tome & principe, cote d ivory, senegal, mauritania, every carribbean nation etc. Perhaps you should do a little research before you make crass and ignorant generalizations.

[Invisibleman]

Hong Kong was a BRITISH COLONY until 1999. Formosa had so much U.S. support that it might as well have been a U.S. colony. The last time I looked,India was and still is one of the poorest countries in the world. > Thats actually quite funny- but remember- it was Hannibal (African) and Moors who introduced Europe to the common bath, paved roads, and chimneys on their houses, instead of just a hole in the roof. So who taught what to who? I think that Africa would be a much better place if Europe had never touched it.

[Cold Heat]

Sad but true. The remains of the Brit and French empires continue to cause problems in both hemispheres. Unfortunately, the US is always blamed for it somehow. Kinda like when a black accuses my ancestors or myself of creating slavery when in fact my ancestors immigrated to this country to escape enslavement. The whole world has gone bananas.

[SauronOfMordor]

You asked if there was a black run nation that was not in dire straits because of poor rulers- heres a sampling: niger, chad,ethiopia kenya tanzania, malawi, madagascar, mozambique, zambia,uganda, cental african republic, cameroon, gabon, equatorial guinea,

From my 2001 World Almanac, going thru your list

• Niger: per capita GDP $960
• Chad $1000
• Ethiopia: $560
• Kenya: $1,550
• Tanzania: $730

Meanwhile, India, who you deride in your next post as "was and still is one of the poorest countries in the world", has a per-capita GDP of $1,720. Back in 1994, India had a per-capita GDP of $380. The difference between India and the African countries, is that India is making better progress.

BTW, Carthage (where Hannibal came from in your following post) was established as a colony of the Phoenicians (The Phoenician lived in what is now Lebanon). Perhaps the idea of baths came to Carthage from the Phoenicians, who in turn might have gotten it from their neighbors, the Hebrews.

You might try getting your data from somewhere other than your Afrocentrism texts...

[stlrocket]

What's Changed?

RIDING IN STYLE

[PaulKersey]

Looks like a burley black man driving to me. With maybe a little pixelation added so you can't see the driver quite as well. A great propaganda shot.

[Invisibleman]

YOU SAY: "From my 2001 World Almanac, going thru your list Niger: per capita GDP $960 Chad $1000 Ethiopia: $560 Kenya: $1,550 Tanzania: $730" I SAY: What are you comparing your numbers to? The U.S.- well of course they are going to be low compaered to the U.S., the most powerful country in the world. Most of those countries derive there income from the land, they are largely rural countries. Chad may only have a per capita of $960, but how high is the cost of living in Chad as compared to the U.S.? Not a very good basis to draw comparisons on. YOU SAY: "Meanwhile, India, who you deride in your next post as "was and still is one of the poorest countries in the world", has a per-capita GDP of $1,720. Back in 1994, India had a per-capita GDP of $380. The difference between India and the African countries, is that India is making better progress." I SAY: Better progress than which African countries? Algeria (GDP $5500)? Botswana (GDP $6600)? Cape Verde (GDP $1700)? South Africa (GDP $8500)? Granted India has made progess, assuming your numbers are correct, but that country has had more help from the U.S. thatn the entire continent of Africa has had. Also to compare one country with an entire continent is not too fair, to say the least. We could compare the African continent with the South Asian reigion (Bangladesh, Vietnam, Cambodia, etc) and make a comparison there. YOU SAY: "BTW, Carthage (where Hannibal came from in your following post) was established as a colony of the Phoenicians (The Phoenician lived in what is now Lebanon)." I SAY: So are you saying that Hannibal was from Lebanon? That would be just plain wrong. Everyone knows that Hannibal was born in Carthage, whish is modern day TUNISIA. Face it- Hannibal was African!!! YOU SAY: "Perhaps the idea of baths came to Carthage from the Phoenicians, who in turn might have gotten it from their neighbors, the Hebrews." I SAY: And perhaps the earth will plunge into the sun today, but that is just as unlikely. The Moors (from north africa) entered spain in about 711 A.D. under the command of Gibral Tarik (the rock of gibraltar). The Moorish occupation brought Europe out of the dark ages and into the age of enlightenment. Like I said before the Moors brought the common bath, paved streets, and chimneys to Europe. Check your history. YOU SAY: "You might try getting your data from somewhere other than your Afrocentrism texts..." I SAY: And you might try getting your data from somewhere other than revisionist history....

[SauronOfMordor]

This is turning into a wonderful flame-fest. I'm starting to enjoy it! OK, so where do I start?

1. The Moors (from north africa) entered spain in about 711 A.D. under the command of Gibral Tarik (the rock of gibraltar). The Moorish occupation brought Europe out of the dark ages and into the age of enlightenment. Like I said before the Moors brought the common bath, paved streets, and chimneys to Europe.

   So, the Moors, in 711 AD, taught Europe about roads? The Roman Empire was building roads across Europe a thousand years earlier. The Appian Way, built in 312 BC of cemented stone blocks, is still standing in many places (which beats the record of most US highway depts). Heated baths were around in ancient Greece since the time of Homer (around 600 BC)

2. Everyone knows that Hannibal was born in Carthage, whish is modern day TUNISIA. Face it- Hannibal was African!!!

   I know a blond-haired girl who was born in Africa, and whose ancestors were born in Africa going back a couple hundred years(South Africa). Geographicly, she is African. Culturally and geneticly, she is European. This was my point regarding Carthage.

   Similarly, the Egyptian queen Cleopatra was born in Egypt, but was of entirely Greek descent (Alexander the Great, of Macedonia, conquered Egypt in 332 BC and the conquering greeks became the new ruling class. See here

3. Also to compare one country with an entire continent is not too fair, to say the least"

   The total population of all of Africa is 780 million, according to my World Almanac. India, by itself, has over a billion people, speaking a variety of languages, and having a variety of cultures. I thought the comparison rather valid.

4. re: GDP comparisons: looking at the CIA Factbook, we see African countries like Zimbabwe with a GDP growth rate of NEGATIVE 6.1%, Chad 4%, Namibia 4%, Nigeria 3.5%, Niger 3.5%, South Africa 3%(you get the picture). Meanwhile, India has a 6% growth rate, Taiwan 6.3%, USA 5%.

   Bottom line: India and Taiwan are catching up with the US, while most African countries are falling further behind

[Ohioan]

My hat goes off, as always, to Walter Williams. He is one of the few Academics and one of the few columnists whose integrity is unquestionable.

But one needs to realize that the attack on Apartheid was never really about improving the lot of the South African Bantu. It was part of something quite broader and deeper in its implication. It was part of the same concept that destroyed the rights of Tshombe's Lunda people in Katanga, and justified the destruction of the rights of the Ibo in Nigeria--two Negro tribes that were crushed by the Western Left.

Had America adhered to her own traditions, the normal people in Africa today, both Black and White, would be infinitely better off. (See An American Foreign Policy.)

William Flax

[SauronOfMordor]

Sorry, the Cleopatra link didnt make it. Here

[Invisibleman]

YOU SAY: So, the Moors, in 711 AD, taught Europe about roads? The Roman Empire was building roads across Europe a thousand years earlier. The Appian Way, built in 312 BC of cemented stone blocks, is still standing in many places (which beats the record of most US highway depts). Heated baths were around in ancient Greece since the time of Homer (around 600 BC)

I SAY Yeah, but you forgot to mention that after the Greek and Roman empires fell, Europe entered the Dark ages- all that enlightenment went by the wayside:

In AD476, warriors attacked the city of Rome and ended the more than 800 years of glory for the "eternal city." Historians mark the fall of Rome as the end of ancient history. The next one thousand years were called the Middle Ages. The Latin term for Middle Ages is "medieval." "The early Middle Ages are often called the "Dark Ages" because the great civilizations of Greece and Rome had fallen. Life in Europe during the Middle Ages was very hard. Very few people could read or write and nobody expected conditions to improve. The only hope for most people during the Middle Ages was their strong belief in Christianity, and the hope that life in heaven would be better than life on earth" (Source- Mr dowling's encyclopedia.com)- hardly an "afrocentric site" as you would call it.

And then the Moors came onto the scene. Look at what they did : "In addition "Moorish Spain also excelled in city planning; Cordova had 471 mosques and 300 public baths...water from the mountains was distributed through every corner and quarter of the city by means of leaden pipes into basins of different shapes..." Source "A Tropical Dependency", Flora L. Shaw

YOU SAY I know a blond-haired girl who was born in Africa, and whose ancestors were born in Africa going back a couple hundred years(South Africa). Geographicly, she is African. Culturally and geneticly, she is European. This was my point regarding Carthage.

I SAY: Hannibal wasnt that blond haired girl though- he was born and raised in Carthage, and was Culturally, Geographically, and genectically ( you dont think there was some intermixing going on?) African and identified in that way- You dont think he had African blood in him? That dark skin had to come from somewhere- it just wasnt a good suntan. Even if your argument was on point- Lebanon- where you said the carthiginians were from before settling in modern day tunisia- is hardly europe, so you cant claim he is european. That is unless, you want to claim iraq, iran, and egypt as european also.

YOU SAY re: GDP comparisons: looking at the CIA Factbook, we see African countries like Zimbabwe with a GDP growth rate of NEGATIVE 6.1%, Chad 4%, Namibia 4%, Nigeria 3.5%, Niger 3.5%, South Africa 3%(you get the picture). Meanwhile, India has a 6% growth rate, Taiwan 6.3%, USA 5%. Bottom line: India and Taiwan are catching up with the US, while most African countries are falling further behind

I SAY 5 countries do not make up most African countries sir. I guess Algeria at 5%, Benin at 5%, Botswana at 6%, Burkina Faso at 5%, Cape Verde at 6%, Libya at 6.5%,Equitoral Guinea at 12%!!!!, kind of passed by your vision, huh? Those countries have growth rates at or about the U.S. rate. Some may not be as high as India's 6%, but that is not tantamount to being a failure.