On Free Grace

Wesley Center of Applied Theology | 1740 | John Wesley

[stuartcr]

First of all, how do you know Adam had free-will at birth? He was supposedly the first human. Maybe God was experimenting with the concept of free-will, sort of a trial and error. Adam does what he was told not to do, uses free-will and eats the info fruit. God gets upset, sees how uniquely horrible this free-will stuff is, and punishes the rest of mankind for Adam's mistake. Now we have free-will and all it's attached misery. Perhaps animals are the lucky ones, they don't appear to have free-will, or sin.

[kcox]

I guess Wesley should have adopted Calvin's attitudes for dealing with people. I'm sure Servetus thought Calvin's attitudes were so very Christlike.

[stuartcr]

Well you see, I would like to believe everyone has eternal life.

[fortheDeclaration]

Bump for God's love and incredible mercy.

Amen and Amen!

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosover believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life (Jn.3:16)

That single verse says more about how unbiblical Calvinism is, then any argument could!

[CCWoody]

I believe that if we really do have free-will, it is either the punishment for original sin, or the sin itself.

It is possible that you hang around these threads with us because, despite our differences on doctrine, you recognize that we have the bread of life which you desperately need?

John 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."

John 5:24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

John 6:27 "Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him."

I know that you have heard the gospel. The tomb is empty. The living God is risen and holds the keys of Hades and Death. Are you inscribed into the palms of His hands?

[Ward Smythe]

So, Wesley really has no clue what Calvinist really believe.

How can you say that Woody? Seriously.

Would you say that God is the creator of all? I believe you would.
Would you say that God knew his elect from the foundations of the world? I believe you would.
Would you say that God knew the non-elect from the foundations of the world? I believe you would.
Would you say that only the elect can come to God? I believe you would.

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of those points. If I am I apologize. But tell me where you would disagree. We don't need attitudes (from either of us) and let's not get tangled up in semantics. But aren't those statements factual?

Because if they are, they can mean nothing else but that God created some individuals for the sole purpose of condemning them to eternal torment.

In simple terms, help me see how it could mean anything else.

[fortheDeclaration]

Note that Wesley published this sermon even though Whitfield had pleaded with him not to do so in order to preserve unity. Wesley cared nothing for unity, and showed himself to be a schismatic.

Calvinism was already splitting apart the Methodist movement. Wesley had to give his views on it. I will be posting what he said at Whitfields funeral shortly.

Whitfield certainly felt that this sermon was a personal attack against him, he stated "I have been supplanted, despised, censured, maligned, judged by and separated from my nearest, dearest friends."

That seems to the usual reaction by Calvinists! Whitfield was a great man of God and a great soul winner despite his Calvinism.

Take the time to read Whitfield's letter to Wesley (found here). You will notice, I hope, just how gracious and accomodating Whitfield was in this controversy. If you were to take the time to research all of the correspondence between these two men during this period, you would see that Wesley really was a bit hypocritical to heap such praise on Whitfield at his funeral, especially when he took as many pot-shots at him as he did during his life.

Both men were gracious and kind, Christian men. That is why Wesley spoke at Whitefields funeral. If the Christian love that was shown by those two men could be shown on these sites there would a lot less shouting and a lot more frank discussion.

But ye would not

[RnMomof7]

Come now, do you really think that we proponents of that doctrine of predestination (so abhored by John Wesley) don't think that Satan has power? We have demonstrated, on other threads, that he certainly does have the ability to deceive even God's people. Come to think about it, you never did answer my earlier question. Do you think that you are immune from satanic deception?

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

There is lots and lots of self deception as well as demonic deception is the church today..

[Ward Smythe]

I know that you have heard the gospel. The tomb is empty. The living God is risen and holds the keys of Hades and Death. Are you inscribed into the palms of His hands?

Stuart,

Woody and I disagree on many things in our interpretations. But here we speak as one. What Christianity has that no other religion or approach to God has is the evidence of the empty tomb. Jesus is Lord, and he is the one way to the Father.

Don't let our family squabbles keep you from seeing that. We are passionate in our beliefs because Christ has radically changed us. In our human natures we may violently disagree. But Christ is our bond and we all long for the day when we will be with Him forever.

Ward

[RnMomof7]

Wesley makes valid inferences from the end results of the teachings of calvinism. Why would hell recruit when everything is already determined? They need only stand by and wait.

Matthew 4
1 Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.

Perhaps we need to ask Satan how it is he could get the Son of God himself to fall before him?

Remember the sin of Lucifer was pride.....

[RnMomof7]

OPPS I ment to flag you to 50

[xzins]

Jerry, you're the one to suggest Wesley was hypocritical in his gracious remarks at Whitefield's funeral. (Post #15).

Since Jerry insists on mentioning my name and SATANIC influence in the same breath, and Since we're discussing the lives of these early Christians, the readers must be aware of the following:

The entire report is found at: His Ashes Cry Out Against John Calvin

You are about to read an important part of church history from the Reformation period that has been so concealed in our day that very few people know the facts. Brace yourself for a shock.

On October 27, 1553 John Calvin, the founder of Calvinism, had Michael Servetus, the Spanish physician, burned at the stake just outside of Geneva for his doctrinal heresies!(1) Hence, the originator of the popular doctrine of "once saved, always saved" (known in certain circles as "the perseverance of the saints") violated the cry of the Reformation -- "Sola Scriptura" -- by murdering a doctrinal heretic without Scriptural justification. This event was something Calvin had considered long before Servetus was even captured, for Calvin wrote his friend, Farel, on February 13, 1546 (seven years prior to Servetus' arrest) and went on record as saying:

"If he [Servetus] comes [to Geneva], I shall never let him go out alive if my authority has weight."(2)

Evidently, in that day Calvin's authority in Geneva, Switzerland had ultimate "weight." This is why some referred to Geneva as the "Rome of Protestantism"(3) and to Calvin as the "Protestant 'Pope' of Geneva."(4)

During Servetus' trial, Calvin wrote:

"I hope that the verdict will call for the death penalty."(5)

Let it be noted that the Calvinists of Geneva put half-green wood around the feet of Servetus and a wreath strewn with sulfur on his head. It took over thirty minutes to render him lifeless in such a fire, while the people of Geneva stood around to watch him suffer and slowly die! Just before this happened, the record shows:

"Farel walked beside the condemned man, and kept up a constant barrage of words, in complete insensitivity to what Servetus might be feeling. All he had in mind was to extort from the prisoner an acknowledgement [sic] of his theological error -- a shocking example of the soulless cure of souls. After some minutes of this, Servetus ceased making any reply and prayed quietly to himself. When they arrived at the place of execution, Farel announced to the watching crowd: 'Here you see what power Satan possesses when he has a man in his power. This man is a scholar of distinction, and he perhaps believed he was acting rightly. But now Satan possesses him completely, as he might possess you, should you fall into his traps.'

When the executioner began his work, Servetus whispered with trembling voice: 'Oh God, Oh God!' The thwarted Farel snapped at him: 'Have you nothing else to say?' This time Servetus replied to him: 'What else might I do, but speak of God!' Thereupon he was lifted onto the pyre and chained to the stake. A wreath strewn with sulfur was placed on his head. When the faggots were ignited, a piercing cry of horror broke from him. 'Mercy, mercy!' he cried. For more than half an hour the horrible agony continued, for the pyre had been made of half-green wood, which burned slowly. 'Jesus, Son of the eternal God, have mercy on me,' the tormented man cried from the midst of the flames ...."(11)

The remainder of this horrible affair, and the footnotes, are at the weblink posted above. Let it be noted that Servetus didn't hold a correct doctrine of the trinity.

Also, one additional note:

"Two other famous episodes concerned Jacques Gruet and Jerome Bolsec. Gruet, whom Calvin considered a Libertine, had written letters critical of the Consistory and, more serious, petitioned the Catholic king of France to intervene in the political and religious affairs of Geneva. With Calvin's concurrence he was beheaded for treason.

Bolsec publicly challenged Calvin's teaching on predestination, a doctrine Bolsec, with many others, found morally repugnant. Banished from the city in 1551, he revenged himself in 1577 by publishing a biography of Calvin that charged him with greed, financial misconduct, and sexual aberration."(18)

[xzins]

bump to #52

[winstonchurchill]

[I]f a sick man knows that he must unavoidably die, or unavoidably recover, though he knows not which, it is unreasonable for him to take any physic at all. He might justly say, (and so I have heard some speak, both in bodily sickness and in spiritual,) "If I am ordained to life, I shall live; if to death, I shall live; so I need not trouble myself about it.

This is my favorite quotation from Mr. Wesley. It slices right through the rhetorical dodging of the Calvinist construct with unanswerable Truth.

[stuartcr]

I too feel that God is why I am the way I am.
I cannot accept an empty tomb, thousands of years ago, as proof of resurrection.
Why do you squabble?

[Ward Smythe]

RE #52: Wow.

[stuartcr]

All this because someone refused to believe in God as another. Pitiful

[CCWoody]

Because if they are, they can mean nothing else but that God created some individuals for the sole purpose of condemning them to eternal torment.

You and Wesley are choking on what is not Calvinism.

Would you say that God is the creator of all? Yes
Would you say that God knew his elect from the foundations of the world? Yes
Would you say that God knew the non-elect from the foundations of the world? Yes
Would you say that only the elect can come to God? No

You make an interesting point: God knew his elect from the foundations of the world! God just didn't know about them, He knew them altogether.

Before, I continue to clarify our position, please answer your own 4 questions.

[Ward Smythe]

I cannot accept an empty tomb, thousands of years ago, as proof of resurrection.
Why do you squabble?

Stuart, our faith depends upon our acceptance of the empty tomb. It is the very essence of what we believe.

We squabble because, while we are redeemed by the blood of the Lamb, we are still human.

1 Corinthians tells us: "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." - 1 Corinthians 13:11-12.

God has given us his Word to live by. But just as we can read the same posts here on FreeRepublic and have different opinions, different intrepretations, we do the same with the Word of God.

Just as what you know, what you've read, what you've experienced, has formed your opinion of God, we come to different conclusions when we read His Word. That doesn't reflect on His Word, or His Truth. It reflects on us.

[Ward Smythe]

Would you say that only the elect can come to God? No

Really?

Before, I continue to clarify our position, please answer your own 4 questions.

I'm on my way out the door and won't be back online for a few hours (at least). I'll try to get back to you later this evening.