Posted on 02/25/2002 11:01:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
Stuart, these folks want you to become a Christian. So do I. But I want you to be a "sermon on the mount" Christian; one who believes "blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy."
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved....
Not at all. I hold to the traditional, classical Calvinist theology, same as Jesus, same as the Apostle Paul, same as Augustine, same as John Calvin, same as John Owens, same as Jonathan Edwards, same as C.H. Spurgeon, same as John Piper. You would have a difficult time coming up with a dime's worth of difference between us.
As far as your thinking tht we are mounting some type of personal attack against you, let me say this: Just because you think someone is out to get you doesn't mean that they are. (I know, there are a slew of jokes that can be made with this as a starting point.)
Base lies that have been refuted elsewhere. You appear to not be cognizent of several things:
1) The Roman Catholic church had already condemned Servetus as a heretic, and had ordered his execution.
2) John Calvin was not the civil authority in Geneva, and did not condemn Servetus.
3) John Calvin argued that Servetus should not suffer death by burning, but was overruled.
4) In most places, heresy was a capital offense, and the death penalty was often given in many places. If Servetus is the worst you can offer, than Calvin was certainly ahead of his times.
5) Freedom of religion had its roots in Geneva, and we owe that to Calvin. Just think how bad things would be, even today, without this influence.
Nice try, but no reward. (Do you know how bad it makes you look to dredge this stuff up as if it is some awful revelation. Think about the spirit in which you do these things. I think you will discover that it isn't one looking for unity.)
Let's approach this from this standpoint:
Was John Calvin perfect? No, he was a sinner, saved by grace, just as Saul of Tarsus, complicit in the murder of Stephen, was a sinner, saved by grace.
Was John Wesley perfect? Well, he did argue for "complete sanctification, and wants us to believe he was pretty darn close to becoming perfect in his earthly life, but I would argue that he was also a sinner, saved by grace.
Just how much sin does it take to send a man to hell?
(Also, you keep insisting that you have been called "satanic". Very disingenuous of you, it has been stated that you might be subject to "satanic deception", and that is something completely different. The fact that you won't admit that you are susceptible to this deception is more troubling to me than anything you could post about John Calvin. Besides, when did any of us ever claim that "Calvinism" was anything other than a descriptive nickname for the truth of the Gospel?)
Up until the end of the 19th century, many crimes in Europe carried a death sentence. You could be executed for stealing a loaf of bread in some places. Do you honestly think that we can understand that world from our present place in history?
Please help me understand this. If our Sovereign God created some without the hope of salvation's grace, would they then not be considered obedient to His purpose and not be considered "lost in sin"? Do I not understand correctly that all disobedience to God is "sin" - and if by reason this is true, would the "disobedient" which were predestined to that end, not actually be "obedient" to God's purpose? Whew! I'm dizzy from going in circles.
What happened to mankind's choosing the paths of destruction as many of the OT prophets so sincerely warned of doing? Why would God directly tell Cain that if he chose to do well, Cain would be accepted but if not, sin lieth at his door? And lastly, why would Joshua ask Israel to choose this day whom they would serve?
I know, all that's Old Testament scripture, but the New Testament is the record of the OT fulfilled by Christ's work, isn't it? In the NT, we are told that it is the Lord's will that all come to repentance (2 Pet. Ch. 3 V. 9). I take the words "not willing" to mean the Lord's will. Does this indicate His will is a failure? Certainly not. Why? Because the freedom to choose seems to play a huge part in the consequences.
In this sense, Calvinism really confuses me. So I think it's best I stick to the simple - to love my God with all my heart, soul, mind, and strength. And at my best, to love others as myself. I believe it is this "soul" purpose to which we were predestined as brothers in Christ...
Az
In the NT, we are told that it is the Lord's will that all come to repentance (2 Pet. Ch. 3 V. 9). I take the words "not willing" to mean the Lord's will. Does this indicate His will is a failure? Certainly not. Why? Because the freedom to choose seems to play a huge part in the consequences.
Who are the us in that verse. Who is the Lord talking about? BTW, according to your reading, does the will of man supercede that of God?
Good News For The Day
‘But now that you know God-or rather, are known by God.’ (Galatians 4:9)
The Galatians have inherited a new situation, in the gospel. They have come to know God. But having said as much, Paul checks himself, realizing that there is another way of saying that, which is closer to the truth: "Rather, now that God knows you." The first statement has the human agent in view. The second, centers on God. In Christianity, the work is not so much done by us, as upon us. It is not our recognition of God, but his recognizing us, that counts for everything.
It is always possible for Christians to lose this perspective. They can become busy in service; anxiously involved in many programs; vigorous in their promotion of sacrifice, commitment, decision and loyalty. The result can be a hectic, stressful life, without serenity or assurance.
Peace for the soul does not come from a religious experience that majors in what we are doing for God. The things we are doing are often not very good, and often they are fruitless. Spiritual rest comes from trust in what God has done for us.
The human quest for God, is not and never will be the gospel. The gospel is God's quest for humanity. God, seeking us; God, finding us; God, not willing to let us go.
Let me no more, my comfort draw,
From my frail hold on thee.
In this alone rejoice with awe,
Thy mighty... grasp---of me.
Thy mighty grasp of me!
Do you propose that God did not foreknow that Cain would kill Abel? Please remember that the plan of salvation was made before the foundation of the earth..God knew that Adam ate the fruit.Yet He asked Adam "Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?" . And in the same way he warned Cain what his life would be when he sinned, just as He warns both the saved and unsaved today.
That is an apt description of what Calvin felt about Servetus and what he did to him.
1. Calvin WAS the authority in Geneva; he could start or stop anything he wished. He was known as the POPE of Geneva.
2. Calvin did make statements ahead of time that he would see Servetus dead. They are preserved in post #52. He followed through on his promises.
3. Calvin did stand by and permit this cruel punishment when he had the power to change it.
Servetus' crime: instead of believing that Jesus was the eternal Son of the eternal God, Servetus believed that Jesus was the son of the eternal God. He was turned around backward on his doctrine of the Trinity....but to KILL him for it! God forbid that any Christian would affirm such merciless hardheartedness.
For such a crime as this a PHARISEE would kill someone; and for similar doctrinal disagreements PHARISEES today like to LABEL their opponents as satanic just as Calvin labeled this opponent as satanic.
What charge such as this can be laid at the feet of Jesus? These charges against John Calvin have not been laid to rest. They are a continual SINFUL, HATEFUL mark on his record. Only for "true believers in John Calvin" have they been set aside, and that of necessity.
Calvin did not teach the doctrine of Jesus, Paul, Peter, or any of the early church. He certainly didn't practice it. He taught a hard, unloving and unforgiving God and THAT is what he became himself, hard, unloving, and unforgiving.
Skip that comment. I posted in a hurry and realized it driving down the road about 30 minutes later.
Imagine burning alive for all eternity because someone refused to believe in God and trust Him for their salvation.
Revelation 14:10 ..he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.Do you even entertain the idea that you are wrong; that you really do need to be saved because you have sinned against God?
Perhaps Woody because an honest search for the truth will lead us to it...
azhenfud - Calvin confused a lot of people. You'll meet many of them here.
My father & pastor used to do the same thing to me all the time in childhood.
How does that square with your answer to question #2? If the non-elect can come to God, does he change his mind in midstream and make them elect?
I'm not being a smart aleck. Tell me how it fits.
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