The Church They Love To Hate

lewrockwell.com ^ | March 20, 2002 | David Dieteman

[PBRSTREETGANG]

Your "unarguably legitimate question" to which I responded was whether the media bashed the Catholic Church because, among other things, "...it demands such devotion of its adherents that when it says white is black they are forced to compel their minds to accept the absurd."

Since you feel the need to pretend that you are incapable of seeing the presuppositions which you insert into your "plain-sense" questions, I leave you to your smugness.

[Campion]

JESUS said it flows from what you DO, not from an organization. By their fruits you WILL KNOW them.

That would be the same Jesus who pointed to the Pharisees and said "Obey their teaching, because they sit on Moses' seat, but do not follow their example"? And "by their fruits you will know them" tells you nothing about where moral authority comes from, but about how to tell a false prophet, of whom you are to beware, from a true one. I repeat: moral authority comes ultimately from God, not from any human's deeds. How you recognize that authority is a different question.

Of course, what Jesus said matters little here. Right?

Wrong. Just be sure you consider everything that Jesus said.

There are folks that worship an invisible Christ, and those that worship visible, man-made, unbiblical religious structures and institutions.

And then there are folks who make uncharitable accusations against others on the Internet. "Judge not, lest ye be judged" is in the same chapter, of the same book, in the same Bible as "you will know them by their fruits". Why do you follow one, but not the other?

Pedophiles do NOT represent Christ.

Tell me, at what point during his affair with Bath-Sheba did David cease to be the King of Israel?

Taking the body of Christ from the hands of a man who, moments before has been fondling the unmentionable aspects of an altar boy's privates... is blasphemous to some of us

I'd venture to say that it's blasphemous to all of us, and that is as it should be. However, the sacrament remains what it is because it is what it is by the power and grace of God, not by the virtue of the priest.

[heyheyhey]

...If the shepherds are pedophiles, and they are the one and only true voice speaking for God...

I have never met a pedophile priest, and I don't know personally anyone who has. I am a Catholic, and Newsweek or New York Times would be the last publications for me to search for the "truth" about my Church and my "shepherds."

...I think we see the fruit of organized religion manifest in so many perversions and distortions...

From your many biblical quotes I would think that you know WHO founded this "organized religion." One/twelfth of this organization was Judas, too.

...When leaders behave, moral authority is a given, and no article is needed to "prop up" the faithful…

The moral authority of the Church comes from her faithfulness to Christ and His Gospel, not from the behavior of one or two disturbed individuals.
The article is needed to expose the misinformation contained in the other publications.

[Pablo64]

Thanks, Bustard, for the calm reply. I will agree with you about the priests at the local parish level not being the ones I was referring to, and perhaps I could come up with a better term than "lord it over" (just the first thing to pop to mind). I certainly don't ever remember Father Larry from my local church acting that way (yes, I'm one of those dreaded born-again ex-Catholics...never thought I'd have that many hyphens associated with a description of myself!) It has more to do with how I perceive the highest echelons of the church (Rome).

I would love some good, solid, discourse on this kind of a subject but I'm still undecided if this is the best forum. I also have learned from experience here that even the slightest statement from someone critical of the RC church can draw some of the nastiest flames (and, to be fair, I've seen it go the other way, too).

Catholics on this forum may ask that since I am an ex-Catholic if maybe I don't have "issues" to work out. That may or may not be; I believe my issues are of a doctrinal nature mostly, and therefore born out of a concern for my fellow brethren who are still "in the Church", not any horrible experience that I had growing up in the Catholic church. On the contrary, I was very involved and, at the time, very committed to it, and I have fond memories of many of the priests and nuns that I knew.

I will agree with one aspect of this particular post, in that right now, it does look like the media is sort of "piling on", but I think that comes and goes, with the flavor of the day. A few weeks ago, it was Billy Graham, now it's the Catholics, next it will likely be some Protestant church/leader/? that gets dumped on.

[Pablo64]

Please bear with me if I'm a little dense today (I had to work all last night and was up for almost 24 hours straight, so am a little slow today). Could you give me a little more clarification on your position? I read the referenced scripture and am familiar with it, but I'm not sure if I understand if you are defending the Catholic church with that, or if you were agreeing with my statement (you probably were clear, but I'm just missing it today).

[Campion]

To put it briefly, my point was that what you describe is exactly the Church that Jesus told us to expect, warts and all. And you'll note that when Jesus talks about a "chief steward" who "drinks and abuses the servants," he doesn't add "and you should separate yourselves from him quickly, because that isn't 'the Church' anymore, 'the Church' has moved to Grace Bible Fellowship down the street." He says that "that servant will be cut in two and his portion appointed among the unbelievers".

The tares, sown by the enemy, which grow amidst the wheat aren't just a figure of speech.

[Pablo64]

OK, thanks for the clarification. I will agree with you on that point. I have seen too many church splits over things that are not doctrinal issues, but personal tastes.

I left the Catholic church due to my beliefs that serious doctrinal error crept into it centuries ago, and they have not been corrected, but in fact have been added to. I know that I don't stand a chance of convincing the RC defenders on this forum, but I do enjoy some of the dialogue. Also, that was an excellent scripture you chose to make your point (now that I understand your point!).

[heyheyhey]

What would constitute an answer to that prayer [for Christian unity], from the Catholic perspective? IOW, what does "Christian Unity" mean to the Catholics that pray for it?

Unity of Christians will be possible only alongside a true conversion of all Christians. Conversion means following Christ in a committed way.

I guess, someone could ask this question:

- When will the Catholic Church loosen up the Gospel requirements so that they may become acceptable to everybody? ;-)

[VoiceOfBruck]

Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I long for unity among Christians as well, in terms of loving acceptance of one another despite doctrinal disagreements, but I realize that it probably won't happen here on earth.

[Salvation]

Where the news media is concerned, the Catholic Church is a rival.

The Catholic Church will stand up and speak out when others are quiet. Don't worry about this current flap -- it will prove to be a bonanza for the Catholic Church as it tightens regulations within to be more in line with the teachings of Jesus Christ.

[Salvation]

Our Lord's will was "that they may be one."

The Catholic Church states again and again in its teachings that it will bring the Good News of Jesus Christ to all in the human race.

[ltlflwr]

It may sound strange but I think the media is doing the Church a favor by spotlighting these perverts. For all the pro-homosexual propaganda the media spews, isn’t it fitting that they’ve actually struck a death blow to NAMBLA’s efforts to “normalize” pedophilia. What the Church does with these perverts is nothing compared to what Christ will do to them on Judgment Day if they don’t repent and reform.

[Steve0113]

What the Church does with these perverts is nothing compared to what Christ will do to them on Judgment Day if they don’t repent and reform.

Indeed. Can you say "millstone"?

[Steve0113]

the American news media is not in any moral position to render judgment on the Church.

I missed this the first time I read the article. This has to be the understatement of the year.