The Nazis weren't Christians.

Opinion Journal ^ | MONDAY, MARCH 25 | ROBERT L. BARTLEY

[Pietro]

"Those few Germans who actually did worship Wotan were rounded up fast. Hitler did NOT like them."

Its funny but of all the histories I've read of Nazi germany this is the first time I've read that statement. Perhaps you have a source?

[anniegetyourgun]

You are still of your father, but I will pray for you.

[Hajman]

Sigh. Because he had a religious faith that the Jews were a distinct race and that they were subhuman and that pure Germans were supermen.

Yes, that's what he believed, but there's nothing religious to it. The closest theory that different groups of people could be different levels of humanity is macro evolution. If believing there's different levels of humans is religion, macro evolution could be shoved into that. As for Christianity, the theory that stems from that is that all men are equal, and none are any lower on the humanity chain then others. Unless I missunderstood your comment, which is possible. What's the evidence for the link between believing in the SuperRace and religion in this case?

-The Hajman-

[Pietro]

How ironic that you should list Liebelfels, von List, and Sebottendorf as victims of the Nazis when these men had as much to do w/ the philosophic underpinning of Nazism as Hitler himself. Hitler was spoon fed his rabid anti-semitism by these idiots. Surely you don't count them as your co-religionists? The Thule Society? This is bad company indeed.

The fact that they were later persecuted by Hitler only shows the nest of vipers that this was.

Steiner was a spiritualist/mystic more associated w/ Madame Blavatsky than Odin, he was attacked because he was an enemy of Nazism.

The others I've never heard of, but the statement that it wasn't until June of '41 that persecutions of religious minorties began is laughable.

Something just occurred to me. I first ran across your name on a thread concerning Nazism and the Occult. You were attempting, as you still are, to tie the atrocities of the holocaust to Christians, and pulled the discussion away from the primary subject w/ spurious insults to Christians and religion in general. That's where I got the idea that you were an atheist.

However, these very names that you've dredged up are the links between Hitler and a dark subaltern society. Hitler studied the occult under a disciple of von List in Vienna, Sebottendorf was the mystical leader of the Thule Society prior to and immediately after WWI. Liebenfels was an author of "The Prayer book of Ariosophic Race Mystery and Anti-semitism" ; a book found in Hitler's library.

Were you trying to throw us off the trail by hijacking the conversation? I surely hope not, but it is curious.

[a history buff]

The notion that Pius XII was a Hitlerphile is, simply put, crap.

What, however, do you make of Loftus' claim, corrobarated I believe, that Pius XII was so intent on keeping Communism out of Europe that he did do some horsetrading to bolster the prospects of Catholic politicians in the Intermarium area between Dansk and Trieste?

I think it's an interesting story, and one wherein he cames away looking good, willing to deal with a vanquished devil, and Croatian thugs in particular, to do battle against a new eveil

[Romulus]

I'm not familiar with Loftus; maybe you can elaborate.

On the Pius XII Blamed, Praised at Major Conference thread, I have a conversation with Milburn Drysdale about the Vatican's dealings with the Slovak president (and priest) Josef Tiso. Also, in Bosnia's top war crimes fugitive Radovan Karadzic doing fine, writing books I spar with spar about the archbishop of Zagreb, Blessed Alois Stepinac and his dealings with the CINO dictator Ante Pavelic.

I'm not aware of other important Catholic politicians in the area whose cooperation was sought by Pius, but am always willing to learn. This is a longstanding area of interest for me, but only very recently have I begun to read seriously and build a library on the subject.

[Romulus]

The most comprehensive treatment I know of concerning Pius's dealings with the communist threat during the war is The Vatican and Communism in World War II : What Really Happened?, by the late Robert A. Graham, SJ., whom I had the good fortune to meet during my student days in Rome. A very nice and modest man.

[a history buff]

Loftus & someeone else wrote "Unholy Trinity," a book whose facts are true and interesting, but the exegesis a tad bit pretentious. Pavelic was not quite a CINO, at least after the war.

[Romulus]

Following up on your "intermarium" question. I don't know where my head was yesterday, that I forgot to direct you to the dialogue between the Holy See and the Regent of Hungary, Admiral Nicolas Horthy. (I don't know for a fact that Horthy was Catholic, but it seems a reasonable supposition.) Until he was shoved aside by the Nazis in their March, 1944 invasion, Horthy seems to have done a decent job of impeding deportations of Jews to the death camps. I'm sure the constant prodding in this direction at the hands of the Holy See, its nuncio Archbishop Angelo Rotta, and the Hungarian conference of bishops, all helped put steel in his spine.

Here are some links to the relevant chapters of Robert A. Graham's book, Pius XII and the Holocaust: A Reader (A Catholic League Publication)

Hungary

More Jewish Appeals
Msgr. Rotta Rebuffed
The Pope's Telegram

Hungary after Horthy

Papal Address

[a history buff]

Intermarium was more than a region, as you know.

Even the Italians were not that cooperative with the Germans around when it came to deporting gli ebreici italiani. The Germans had such a low opinion of the Italians that they didn't realize that the constant SNAFUs were intentional.

[Romulus]

If I recall correctly, only the Danes (who executed a heroic and well-coordinated overseas evacuation to Sweden) saved a higher percentage of their Jews than Italy.