Posted on 03/30/2002 9:34:54 AM PST by forest
We're not talking about the choice not to interact.
We're talking about the situation where a particular group is forcibly kept down.
Not being allowed access to education (that is available to everyone else) or being intimidated from voting has nothing to do with the right to keep your own company.
From your post history on this thread, I can tell that you are unable to see this.
Violation of that principle is a criminal act against freedom and a free society. Forced integration at the implicit point of a gun is a crime against the freedom of people in this nation.
Forcing public/state schools to accept all citizens is not a violation of your right to be a racist. And, it is not a criminal act.
Also, as I said before, if one group did not have a similar chance at the American Dream, then it was not really a free society, was it? (not a rhetorical question).
I practice a type of segregation in my own life, and will continue to do so.
I can tell.
I have no idea what racial or ethnic group to which you belong. But, I can tell you you are a member of the inherently lower classes with whom I want no association, an who I want to have no control over my life.
Yes, you're right I do belong to a different class than you.
I don't support segregation.
other people through violation of their rights.
Discrimination is not a right.
people in a free society have a right to reject or separate themselves from other people on a reasonable, or sometimes unreasoned basis.
Sure they have that right, but they don't have the right to co-opt state laws to practice that right.
Basically, you are aggressively evil and have no respect for the principles of a free society.
You argue in favor of state-approved segregation and I'm evil?
Have you been to see your psychiatrist lately?
I volunteer you to be first in line.
And yet you espouse its virtues in post #7, "To be quite honest, if people aren't smart enough or enlightened enough to do the right thing, they need to be "bull whipped" into doing it." You must discriminate between those who 'aren't smart enough' and those who are. Then, in post #21, ("Yes, you're right I do belong to a different class than you"), you make a discrimination between yourself and RLK. Are you violating his rights with your discrimination?
One other exception I must take from your posts... you wrote, "Forcing public/state schools to accept all citizens is not a violation of your right to be a racist. And, it is not a criminal act. Also, as I said before, if one group did not have a similar chance at the American Dream, then it was not really a free society, was it? (not a rhetorical question)." How can you say that we are a free society, when you are "FORCING" acceptance? The real problem is that the state mandates education at all (the bull-whipping "for our own good" that you hold so dearly.... yet another aspect of 'free society'?). Free citizens do not owe the state ANY level of educational knowledge or ability. The Constitution does not say anything about mandating education... but the Tenth Plank of the Communist Manifesto surely does. Do you not see any glaring contradictions there? You start from the false premise that 'free citizens' must be bull-whipped into giving up their children to the state for one-third of their waking hours... then you state that (since they are forced into these schools) they cannot freely choose whom their children might associate with (or not) within that system. Do you seriously believe that you are espousing Freedom with these statements?!?
(Of course, desegregation was a decent solution for an explicit wrong (separate and unequal), but that does not mean that it made the system a workable part of a free society. The system itself was already fatally flawed when it was changed to the Communist model of compulsory, state-provided, and 'free' education.)
Fine.
As long as I can volunteer you right back.
What's the matter?
Can't you tell the moral difference (for example) between a murderer and an emergency-room doctor?
Then, in post #21, ("Yes, you're right I do belong to a different class than you"), you make a discrimination between yourself and RLK. Are you violating his rights with your discrimination?
Only if I ask my congressman to sponsor a bill that would squash RLK's rights just because I don't like him. (Thank you for helping make my point).
One other exception I must take from your posts...
How can you say that we are a free society, when you are "FORCING" acceptance?
First of all, I was talking specifically about the 50's.
Secondly, I never said that society in the 50's was free.
The real problem is that the state mandates education at all (the bull-whipping "for our own good" that you hold so dearly.... yet another aspect of 'free society'?).
You have a problem with having an educated population?
I bet you want hispanic immigrants to be able to read and write in English, even if they can in Spanish.
Free citizens do not owe the state ANY level of educational knowledge or ability. The Constitution does not say anything about mandating education...
Not explicitly, no.
But how're you gonna make sense of your yearly tax forms, apply for credit cards or loans, or vote if you can't make out what the ballot says?
but the Tenth Plank of the Communist Manifesto surely does.
Unsuprisingly, you seem to be more familiar with totalitarian ideology than I am, so I'll take your word for it.
Do you not see any glaring contradictions there? You start from the false premise that 'free citizens' must be bull-whipped
I said nothing about 'free citizens'.
I was talking about stupid rednecks, with backward ideas (see my Murderer/ER Doctor analogy above).
into giving up their children to the state for one-third of their waking hours...
I believe home-schooling is allowed.
then you state that (since they are forced into these schools) they cannot freely choose whom their children might associate with (or not) within that system.
You're saying that because they're being forced into desegregated schools, they are (as a side-effect) being forced to associate with people they don't want to associate with.
I can't argue with that.
Do you seriously believe that you are espousing Freedom with these statements?!?
Do you seriously believe that you are espousing Freedom by supporting legally-enforced segregation?
My sympathies.
The last 40 or so years must have been a real b!+c# for you.
(Of course, desegregation was a decent solution for an explicit wrong (separate and unequal), but that does not mean that it made the system a workable part of a free society. The system itself was already fatally flawed when it was changed to the Communist model of compulsory, state-provided, and 'free' education.)
Free education, was the quickest and practical way to obtain a largely literate, and educated population.
It has nothing to do with communism or any particular ideology.
You think we live in heaven, where everybody holds hands and loves one another?
If the "free citizens" (as you like to call them) could barely read or write, then they wouldn't be free for long, cuz the Russians or Chinese (who by the way do and did have mandatory education) would have developed better technology and would have beaten everybody else over the head.
That's an argument you can't argue with !
When the government comes in to take people's children and bus them miles into a school dominated by Jesse Jackson Al Sharpton, rap music type values to mix the races by force, it a criminal act against those parents and those children. This is the type of degenerate environment intelligent parents attempt to insulate their kids from.
When the leftist government comes in to my business and forces me to hire various proportions of people agains my will, it's an intrusion into my life and a a crime against my freedom.
Got it, goof with the bull whip?
rwb: Fine. As long as I can volunteer you right back. (with my bull whip. )
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Bold talk for a loudmouth safely hundreds or thousands of miles away.
What has happened in the past is I post whoever it is an invitation to meet me near my place where bodies are easily disposable and bring something to fill their hand with. Then the moderator here threatens to ban me. I've also had the local sheriff's department admonish me about sending people on the long trip. This time, as a demonstration of personal reformation, I'm not going to take the bait. Instead I'm going to show the world I've truly reformed. So...
Have a nice day rwb from hundreds or thousands of miles away, and for both our good, please stay there.
Wasn't that sweet? See, I've changed my ways.
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It isn't the schools that need improving. It's the people and subculture at the schools that wear degeneracy as it it were a Nobel Prize and are recalcitrant to change.
See, when you actually say something reasonable, I agree with you.
However, the people and subculture are part of the school.
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The exact characters weren't there, but the equivalent was. Martin Luther King was in bed with two women other than his wife a few hours just before he was killed. That's according to Ralf Abernathy. Same scene, trash, different name. What was to happen was obviously visible on the horizon. You can't see the fundamental trashiness and degeneracy, let alone object to it, because you are part of it.
rwb: Fine. As long as I can volunteer you right back. (with my bull whip. )
Make it a habit of assigning to people, sentences that they didn't say?
Do you doctor photographs and plant evidence too?
Bold talk for a loudmouth safely hundreds or thousands of miles away.
I can say the same about you.
When I cheekily muttered disparaging remarks about the quality of the stuff to my boss, he exhorted me rather firmly. He collected rare posters, pamphlets and other ephemera from pre WWI and pre WWII Germany. He had a mother-in-law in East Berlin at the time of our working together. He noted that it was the flakey organizations and flakey publications which MOST ACCURATELY AND EARLIEST PREDICTED HITLER'S VALUES AND ACTIONS TO COME.
Certainly not all the rantings of such groups are gospel. However, there are threads of import for those wise and diligent enough to ferret them out.
I'm increasingly convinced that the truth is readily available for most interested in seeking THE TRUTH out.
I'm increasingly convinced that it's not the lack of truth being available that's the problem--as usual--it is the heart of man. Some of us are not the least bit interested in the truth. Some just want to do what they want to do; when they want to do it; the way they want to do it--and to blazes with any detractors.
My reading of reality is that God will allow them the destination of their choosing--AWAY from HIM. In between time, they will plague the planet and those of us more interested in sanity, a healthy society and a genuine relationship with Almighty, Loving God.
The old "if it feels good, do it--as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else" mantra is an ignorant rationalization for those hell-bent on various forms of mental, personal, social and physical masturbation--whether by hand or using various handy victims. They want to talk about interdependence only as it relates to their getting someone else's goodies at little expense or responsibility to themselves. The idea of restraint or "NO!" is anathama to them.
We now have the society they strove for so energetically--where only the insane are sane in Eric Fromm's words. In due course they will discover what reaping the whirlwind entails. Until then, they are a plague on us all. . . . as too much of what's in them is also in the person in our mirrors. The pollution is extreme and pervasive.
Only The Blood of Jesus washes it away. But He can't be one's Savior without being one's Lord. And for too many, there's the very unorgasmic rub.
They know little to nothing of FREEDOM IN RESPONSIBILITY; Joys unwordable in submission to the TRUE LIBERATOR [from death, the world and the devil]; PEACE that passes understanding in the midst of raging war crossfires; True Serenity in the face of monster quakes, volcanos, meteors and ET's that go bump, thump, probe & extract in the night.
The dark is getting darker. The Light is getting brighter. Choosing not to choose will be increasingly seen as a stupid, wimped-out, deadly choice. In one Scripture passage, "cowards" are among the murderers, homosexuals et al rejected of God.
At some point, the greased slides will have deposited their charges in the eternal cesspool. Choice will no longer be much of an option. The reaping will have occurred. And the chaff will have been incinerated.
Until then, one is wise to prayerfully consider the evidence--and learn to walk humbly with brokenness and contrition hand in hand with The True and Eternal King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
Thomas Jefferson had kids with his slaves.
Oh! And then there's:
King David and King Solomon
Led merry, merry lives,
With many, many lady friends
And many, many wives;
But when old age crept over them,
With many, many qualms,
King Solomon wrote the Proverbs
And King David wrote the Psalms.
Flawed people can have good ideas too, and that's not according to Ralf Abernathy.
Dead on.
Freedom without responsibility, results in anarchy and abuse.
You dispose of your strongest argument here. It is well-documented that the public schools were intended to fail from the beginning in order to bring us socialism. That it is compulsory is precisely the perfect refutation of rwb's assertion. It also demonstrates that a system that denies that first freedom to families, to raise their children as their own, is to socialize all citizens as public property. rwb likes his ability, as a member in good standing of the mass-claque of like-minded control freaks, to control that property. It's simple greed for power, and not much deeper than that.
rwb is in that regard a demonstrably archetypal product of that very educational system. It HAS worked, and will collapse into tyranny right on schedule.
THERE IS NO FREEDOM WITHOUT RESPONSIBILITY.
He didn't mean, per se, that it's not appropriate to have freedom without responsibility.
He did not mean that responsibility OUGHT to go with freedom.
He did not mean that freedom is most comfortable or looks better or flows more smoothly with responsibility.
He did not mean freedom was dressed best in responsibility.
He did not mean that freedom was lonely without responsibility.
He meant that there is
It just doesn't exist.
Oh, it may APPEAR to exist for a limited time. . . the reaping can be much too delayed for a Skinnarian behaviorist. . . but the chickens always come home to roost.
One always reaps rice from planting rice.
One always reaps chaos from planting chaos.
One reaps violence from planting violence.
One reaps destruction from planting destruction.
And rebelling against the Rule Book and it's Author is plain destructive.
Love and Creation are HIS turf.
Go against Him if your goal is the opposite.
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