Posted on 04/03/2002 9:52:50 AM PST by r9etb
Simple, Congress has the power to mediate disputes between states of the Union, it's part of the Contract if you will. Seccession would be withdrawing from the Contract, due to previous violations by the other party or parties to it. Once a contract has been violated by one party, the other party has no obligation to uphold it. The North always wanted to have it's cake and eat it too. The Constitution also says that no state can be created out of another without that state's permission. West Virginia was created out of Virginia, without its permission. Virgina was still a state of the Union, if one also asserts that the Constitution forbides secession. You can't have Viginia be a state, and thus Lee and other be traitors, while at the same time it be OK to rip W. Va. away from Va.
Walt, no person, no state, no country has the right, to compel a behavior on another. If your statement here is correct, and 49 states chose to seceed, and Wyoming wanted to exercise its right to maintain the union, then the union would have to stay. Conversely, if Wyoming wanted to leave the other 49, it would be wrong to compel Wyoming's allegiance. What of the concept of free association?
"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. "
is generally quoted as supporting the right of secession. The argument is that since secession is not expressly prohibited in the Constitution, the power to secede is reserved by the States.
I cannot see how you believe that the cited articles address this option.
Where in the Constitution is such a power granted? By the tenth amendment, the Federal government only has such powers as explicitly granted, while the states only have such restrictions as explicitly laid out. IOW, for the feds, if it's not expressly permitted, it's forbidden, while for the states, if it's not expressly forbidden it is permitted. Within the limits of their own Constitutions of course.
The Constitution created a stronger federal government than existed under the Aricles of Confederation, but not an all powerfull one, rather one strictly limited in its powers and purpose.
Where in the Constitution is that?
I don't believe it has such a power. The pre-amble states the reasons for establishing the Constitution, it does not grant powers to the federal government, any more than the "pre-amble" to the second amendment restricts the right to keep and bear arms to state militias. By your arguement, Congress can do anything they darm well please, as long as they sprinkle on some "general welfare" pixiedust, much as they attempt, and usually get away with, regarding the interstate commerce clause. If you are correct we do not a have a Republic, but rather a few hundred dictators meeting in the Capital building.
If a government has become abusive, then the people have the right to dissolve themselves of that union. One reason the government has grown so big is that they are under no threat from the states.
However, if a civil authority is being abusive and rebels against a government so it can pursue its abuses, then natural law kicks in and the fed's have to step in and protect the people's rights. That is the debate over the civil war.
I am not going to take a position here but the justification that there is no reason for succession is wrong on the norths part. Vice versa, it is wrong to think that a state can leave for any reason.
What is the right reason? well thats the debate
Which was provided for by the Constitution in at least a couple of places. Strictly speaking the Confederacy allowed humans to be held in bondage, it held none itself. The federal government however did hold the majority of the people of the states which wished to seceed in a sort of bondage, didn't it?
While speed is an admirable quality, effectiveness is better. The way it was done, in violation of the Constitution itself, in several areas, was not a good thing. Something like taking the slaves with compensation and then freeing them, would have been much better. Besides Lincoln was not all that interested in freeing the slaves, he only freed those in the states "in rebellion" but did not free those in other states, such as Maryland, (and Kentucky ?? IIRC) that were not then "in rebellion". This is the the clearest indication that his interest was in preserving the Union, not freeing the slaves.
In my opinion the slaves would have been freed in the next few decades anyway, as they became uneconomical. They were likely already uneconomical before the Secession War ever began, but certainly the handwriting was on the wall.
No it doesn't, follows Art. 1 Sec. 10:
Section. 10. No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility. No State shall, without the Consent of the Congress, lay any Imposts or Duties on Imports or Exports, except what may be absolutely necessary for executing it's inspection Laws; and the net Produce of all Duties and Imposts, laid by any State on Imports or Exports, shall be for the Use of the Treasury of the United States; and all such Laws shall be subject to the Revision and Controul of the Congress. No State shall, without the Consent of Congress, lay any Duty of Tonnage, keep Troops, or Ships of War in time of Peace, enter into any Agreement or Compact with another State, or with a foreign Power, or engage in War, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.
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You may be thinking of this from Art. 2 Sec. 8.
Congress shall have the power ... To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
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Secession need not be insurection. Sucession is an act of the duely elected government of a state. Insurrection is an attempt to overthrow such a government, or that of the United States. Sucession in not an attempt to overthrow the government being seceeded from, just an attempt to not be part of it any longer.
Once a state seceeded, it would no longer be a state of the Union, and it would not be bound by anything in the Constitution.
Actually when they rebelled they were not a nation, nor even 13 separate nations. Separation (secession?) did not occur for over a year after the rebellion started. The Declaration of Independence was an act of secession however. The difference however was the the 13 states/colonies had no legal sovereignty before separtion, the states of the Union are legally sovereign, in all but a limited number of areas laid out by the Constitution. You'll note that the list of limitations on the states is much shorter than the list of powers granted to the Congress, which is still quite finite. Neither the limitation nor the powers would seem to prohibit, nor give Congress the power to prohibit, peacefull secession. (The shooting didn't start until after secession in 1861, and was initially more a case of local overzealousness (by Citidal cadets in at least one case) and by a local militia commander in the critical one rather than an act of official policy of the state in question, South Carolina, or of the Confederacy. The states all seceded separately, as individual acts of their legislatures, spread out over some time. Lee for instance was serving in the Federal Army and stationed in Texas (San Antonio) when Texas seceeded, but he did not make his decision to turn down command of the Union Army, and take command of the Confederate one, until his home state of Virginia seceded some time later.
BTW, I would like to see the source and context of that January 1861 quote from Lee.
Horse puckey. The events at Ft. Sumpter actually showed that both the state of South Carolina, and the Confederacy, were not in full control of their local militias, which understandably were not happy about a foreign military presense in their harbor, one that refused to leave when asked. Why would the Confederacy *want* to go to war with the Union, if secession could be done peacefully? They knew they stood little chance of beating the Northern Armies, since many of the leaders had at one time or another been officers in the Army. Once the shooting started, they knew the only chance they had to preserve the Confederacy was to win big early, and then negotiate an end to the war, perhaps with help from the British and French, and they almost pulled it off.
I doubt that you would have the same patience if it were you or your loved ones being held in bondage. Also, you can't credibly argue with Lincoln's effectiveness. He was sworn in after most of the Confederate states had seceded and before his term was over he had managed to suppress the insurrection and get the 13th Amendment through Congress and on the road to ratification by the states.
The way it was done, in violation of the Constitution itself, in several areas, was not a good thing.
Name one Constitutional violation involved in emancipation. And tell me, if it were you or your loved ones being held in bondage, would you bend the Constitution as far as you could to free them?
Something like taking the slaves with compensation and then freeing them, would have been much better.
As I noted in Post #275, the Confederates placed a value of $3 billion on their slaves -- equivalent to $58 billion in current dollars and $3 trillion as a percentage of GDP.
Lincoln was not all that interested in freeing the slaves, he only freed those in the states "in rebellion" but did not free those in other states, such as Maryland, (and Kentucky ?? IIRC) that were not then "in rebellion". This is the the clearest indication that his interest was in preserving the Union, not freeing the slaves.
As I noted, Lincoln was instrumental in the passage of the 13th Amendment as soon as possible, but he didn't think he had the Constitutional authority to abolish slavery by Presidential proclamation and he knew that he could not free slaves under Confederate control unless and until the war effort was successful -- and the success of the war hinged in part on keeping the border slave states from joining the rebellion. Nevertheless, in early 1862 he signed laws (a) pledging financial aid to any state that undertook emancipation and (b) abolishing slavery in the District of Columbia. Numerous other military measures which helped to free slaves as Confederate areas were liberated also preceded the Emancipation Proclamation.
In my opinion the slaves would have been freed in the next few decades anyway, as they became uneconomical. They were likely already uneconomical before the Secession War ever began, but certainly the handwriting was on the wall.
As noted, the Confederates put a high value on slavery and also put a high value on maintaining white supremacy in the South. You'll have to explain how that would change in "a few decades" to lend any credibility to your assertion. Also, I'd bet that you'd be willing to take up arms to avoid serving even "a few decades" under whip and chain.
That would be a good point, if true. However what the Constitution really says is:
(Art. IV) Section. 3. New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress.
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This clearly indicates that states have territorial sovereignty. The Congress has powers over matters affecting mulitiple states, and admission of new states, but not absolute powers and may not act without the consent of the states concerned.
Please. The early parts of an exponential growth curve always look fairly constant when plotted along with the latter parts. It's due to the fractal nature of the exponential curve, that is it looks the same at all time scales. Try plotting just say 1850-1900 and see if that doesn't look very similar, ignoring specific events liek the 1860s war, WW-I and most especially WW-II.
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