Fighting has broken out near Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity

BBC News Ticker ^ | 13th April 2002 | BBC News

[hangin' chad]

You must be getting your news from the IDF website. Try a little dose of reality from the BBC News website regaarding the situation:

The Vatican has issued a stern warning to Israel to respect religious sites in line with its international obligations, following a gun battle around Bethlehem's besieged Church of the Nativity.

Spokesman Joaquin Navarro-Valls said the Vatican was following events "with extreme apprehension" and trying to establish the truth about the fighting that flared early on Monday.

Several hundred Palestinian gunmen and civilians fleeing Israeli tanks have been holed up in the church complex for nearly a week, along with a group of monks and nuns.

A spokesman for Catholic monks in the Holy Land said earlier that Israeli soldiers were guilty of an "indescribable act of barbarity". Israel had broken its international obligations and risked "long-term and incalculable" consequences, Father David Jaeger said. Christian clerics from Jerusalem were kept by Israel from entering Bethlehem on Monday

Speaking from Rome, he said monks at the church had reported damage to "sacred spaces" and evidence that Israeli troops had entered the church.

The Pope, who has urged people to pray for peace in the Middle East, on Monday described the violence in the Holy Land as having reached "unimaginable and intolerable" levels.

Father Sabbara estimated that there were 240 people in the church. Some were armed, he said, but they were "not using their arms".

In Britain, Foreign Office Minister Ben Bradshaw described Israeli actions in the area as "totally unacceptable".

The Vatican is reported to be working out an agreement with the Israelis on safe passage for the Palestinians inside the church to the Gaza Strip.

[Phil V.]

Anyone who takes what we say on this forum to heart needs to get a life

Were that true then this place would be even more of a zoo than it already is - nobody would be tossed. I can't say that I agree with this site's majority. But I CAN say that it's present constituency is preferable to chaos.

[Phil V.]

It would have been far better to lose a few hundred Americans trying to take it the old fashioned way.

"You're silly. And getting even more silly by the minute."

[Phil V.]

Then I enjoy the distinction of being a disgusting idiot. I don't care if every religious edifice on the planet gets blown to rubble

You win the prize. You ARE #1!

Your self evaluation is precisely on the mark.

Your reward is that your "temple" (yourself) deserves EXACTLY the same consideration/fate that you recommend for other's.

[Lent]

So you're a backwoods Jihadist same thing.

[Phil V.]

Equal pleasantries, imperialistic colonialist!

[Lent]

I went outside and sat in th' swing and rolled me a joint

Oh but you are proud of toking though. Such a poetic weed-head.

[Phil V.]

Oh but you are proud of toking though. Such a poetic weed-head.

Ahhhh! A bit of context is required. End of the '70s. Do your own thing! If it feels good do it. Living "better" through "chemistry".

I rode that insane ride as long as I could.

By some form of Grace that I do not claim to understand my life changed on November 5th 1986.

As of today I'm so dry I'm fartin' dust. Coffee and cigarettes remain to be mastered.

I'm proud to say that Dubya and I were standing in the same line for the same "ride" . . . good company!

[archy]

USAF-style Close Air Support, possible because the hostage-takers in the church likely have no or very limited supplies of SAM-7 or later model Strella ground-to-air antiaircraft MANPADS rocket launchers and ammunition, is not the way to go here, and the Israelis know it. They're clearing ruined and abandoned vehicles along the route to the church, as those make swell hiding places for the 200-kilo+ command detonated bombs that have destroyed three Israeli tanks since the outbreak of the terror campaign. And it may be tanks that they use, either as fire support for infantry teams or sayeret special forces units that go in and take care of business, probably during the hours of darkness. Alternately, they may use armoured vehicles as stand-off locations where snipers can deal with the armed terrorists as they appear- that seems to be working so far.

But based on my own experience, I'd hope they're bring in something better. Direct fire from 155-mm self-propelled artillery is just what's called for, and about 4 SP guns could quickly end the difficulties, no problem. Even one of the helicopter-carried airborne units wheeled guns should handle the job.

[Robert_Paulson2]

No... but I did see them talking on the television... they said they WERE hostages and folks ARE being held against their will at gunpoint.

[Lent]

Hey I'm not your father-confessor. Sounds like you were reminiscing then over those haze-filled grass days. Hmmm. Looks like they're still haze-filled.

[Phil V.]

Hey I'm not your father-confessor.

There IS a God!

[history_matters]

As I said, the Franciscan monks and nuns stay because it is their calling from God to protect the holy site and to do whatever they can to protect it. At the moment, their presence is all that is preventing a blood bath from taking place inside the sanctuary.

[history_matters]

Thank you for your unreasoned and rude post. It makes its own point about your grey matter.

The Franciscans of the Custody of the Holy Land have made the statement time and again that in the fighting that was taking place between the IDF and the Palestinian Authority police a group of Palestinian civilians together with these 200 armed Palestinians poured into the Church during the fighting. The IDF is surrounding the Church of the Holy Nativity in violation of accords signed with the Vatican, Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Bethlehem is a Palestinian Christian city. Once given partial autonomy it is perfectly understandable that not one Palestinian Christian would want to surrender that autonomy back to the Israeli DF.

[sobieski]

Apparently not.

[sobieski]

WHen did I say anything about the men holed up in the church? I did write about the sniper hitting a monk.

[sobieski]

How? When you are on someone's payroll, you listen when told to do something. I'll repeat: President Bush decides what's good for America, and he's decided that an Israeli pullback is in our interest. It's good enough for me; how about you?