Private Governments? Critics Say Homeowners Associations Can Be Too Strict

ABC NEWS, 20/20 ^ | April 20 | ABCNEWS.com

[Excuse_My_Bellicosity]

True enough. If you're going to buy a house, you better do your homework and take a good serious look at what you're getting into. Better check out the neighbors, the convenants, and all that stuff.

[southern rock]

That to me is the ULTIMATE property right. The right to form communities and live around like minded people.

That right exists VOLUNTARILY. There is no right, however to COMPEL others to live in a manner pleasing to you.

[gcruse]

Once you own your property, why can you not use it
for whatever purpose you wish, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else?

The libertarian argument in a teacup.  I agree with you.  However,
having experienced Houston, where there are no zoning laws,
I am prepared to go in the direction of libertarian ends, without
necessarily coveting the final destination.  Know what I mean?
Zoning is better than no zoning.  I don't want a factory
built next door to my house.

[FITZ]

I think once you sign those home owners association policies or buy a house in a gated community, you did voluntarily give up certain rights ---so you shouldn't do it and I shouldn't, but others can if they want I think. Where I live, there's everything from colonias with no rules followed at all (even no sewers or septic tanks, no housing codes followed) all the way to strict-rules gated communities so I feel I have a choice. I can have a bonfire in my front yard if I want--my neighbors don't care.

[TaRaRaBoomDeAyGoreLostToday!]

If someone has this many dogs without a breeding/kennel license, they will be stopped,fined and punished. Why join the nazi police we have enough laws.

[southern rock]

For people who can't seem to understand that 16 dogs in a neighborhood is unreasonable and ridiculous, there are large tracts of land available. It's called living in the country.

Excellent idea. If you don't like your neighbor's 16 dogs, MOVE TO THE COUNTRY!

[southern rock]

The association derives it's authority through contract law. If you don't like the contract, then don't sign the contract.

The ONLY contract involved in buying a home is that between the buyer and seller. The neighbors are NOT involved, unless it is them you are buying the house from.

[small voice in the wilderness]

But on the other side of the coin, it's out of control when a guy faces jail time for flying the American flag on a flagpole in his own front yard, or because he wants to paint his house gray instead of the shade of brown that everybody else in the neighborhood has under the rules.

That's what I was TRYING to convey in my original post: We moved here NOT KNOWING the war that was going on about the flag. That's why I applaud what he's doing. I hope he wins and I hope the association realizes that flying the American Flag cannot be DENIED someone because they don't like the size of his pole.

[FITZ]

The right to form communities and live around like minded people.

It's a lot easier if people just pick neighbors they can agree with ahead of time. When you buy a house or property, you should look around before you sign and see what type of people there are. Let the uptight live together ---they can report on each other, but they should stay out of my area ---that's the only thing that bothers me ---that they might start going outside their gates with their rules.

[Kaslin]

You don't have the right to do anything you want with your property. For example, there probably are covenants on your land that prevent you from using your residential property for commercial uses.

These are called Zoning laws if I am not mistaken

[FITZ]

If someone moves to inside the city limits --should they have the right to bring their chickens and geese and horses with them? There isn't really any good reason certain animals are prohibited in some zoning areas.

[southern rock]

I think once you sign those home owners association policies or buy a house in a gated community, you did voluntarily give up certain rights

Agreed. But then please let's not use the word "buy". The home is not really "bought" in such cases. Let's just call it what it really is - a security deposit.

[southern rock]

If someone moves to inside the city limits --should they have the right to bring their chickens and geese and horses with them?

Personally, I don't see why not. Since when is a city private property?

[sinkspur]

So you recognize the "right" of others to compel you to live in a manner pleasing to them??

You recognize the right, too, when you sign a contract to buy a house that is governed by the rules of a homeowner's association.

You may as well give up on this rock. These HA's are legal, and they are perfectly within their rights to set rules.

As has already been said, if you don't like these kinds of restrictions, don't buy a house in one of these bergs, or move. But don't move in, sign a contract, then act like you can do whatever you want, because you can't, unless you want to be taken to court.

[supercat]

Case in point: I'm fond of motorcycles. I've ridden all my life. When I was looking for a condo, years ago in my hometown, many condo's didn't allow motorcycles on the property. That was fine, I just read the contract, decided that the community rules were not to my liking, and looked elsewhere. It made my life better, as I didn't have to live around a bunch of biker hating snobs, and it made their lives better as they could choose not to live around my loud scooter.

What happens if, after you move to the community, the HA decides to outlaw motorcycles?

[southern rock]

You recognize the right, too, when you sign a contract to buy a house that is governed by the rules of a homeowner's association.

But who the hell am I signing the contract with and what is this person's or these people's legal standing for entering such a contract if they are not the present owner's of the house in question??? The ONLY valid parties to a home sale contract are the buyer and seller. The neighbors, i.e. "association" can go to hell!

[Melas]

That right exists VOLUNTARILY. There is no right, however to COMPEL others to live in a manner pleasing to you.

It does exist voluntarily. I contend that one of the ultimate property rights is to sell your property to who you choose to sell it to. I don't believe in the authority of government to tell you that you must sell your property to anyone. You the owner should be able to pick and choose who buys your property.

Now that being said, it logically follows that you would have the right to sell your property only to those people who VOLUNTARILY signed a contract prior to purchase, agreeing to future use of the property. Nothing is compelled, nothing is mandated. It's a choice made by the seller and the buyer.

You seem to be operating under the impression that the home owners in question, at no time VOLUNTARILY committed themselves, when in fact that isn't true. The truth is that anyone who buys these contested pieces of property, through free volition of each individual will VOLUNTARILY agreed to contractually obligate themselves to the rules of the covenants.

To examine this dispute, we first have to undertand what's taking place. You say that owners are being compelled to follow rules that they do not agree with. I say that they're being compelled to keep their word which they freely gave. I would whole-heartedly support your position if the property owners had not already agreed to the covenants.

If there is a case where someone who did NOT commit themselves to such rules prior to purchase, and is being persecuted, prosectued, or otherwise suffering harrassment for not obeying a covenant he/she did not agree to beforehand, then I am on your side 100%. However, I have little sympathy for those who gave their promise to obey the rules beforehand, and then wish to go back on their promises.

In short, there is a time to object to the rules of a covenant, and that time is before you agree to obey them.

[southern rock]

if you don't like these kinds of restrictions, don't buy a house in one of these bergs, or move. But don't move in, sign a contract, then act like you can do whatever you want, because you can't, unless you want to be taken to court.

As I stated above, then let's not use the word "buy". The home is not really "bought" in such cases. Let's just call it what it really is - a security deposit.

[sinkspur]

In the interest of full disclosure, you ought to let the thread know that you are against schools mandating school uniforms. Not only that, but you are also in favor of allowing a minor child to wear t-shirts, no matter how obscene, because no one has a right to tell your kid how to dress.

You're a pure libertarian, and you are being consistent.

The only problem is, pure libertarians compromise all the time by doing what their bosses tell them to do, buy buying auto insurance and having licenses, and observing zoning laws.