Death penalty sought as Muslims convert to Christianity

Ananova ^ | April 24, 2002 | Ananova

[JeepInMazar]

There's no monolopy on idiocy.

I'll agree with you there!

However, it should be noted that the clowns you mentioned were not following the teachings of Jesus. But the Muslims in this report are following the teachings of Mohammed.

[Godfollow]

Dear God, Please set your angels of protection around Lawali Yakubu and Ali Jafaru for their faith in your son Jesus Christ. And like Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego may they not waver in their faith, even in the face of certain death. And confound their persecutors and all that worship the false God Allah.

[Doctor Stochastic]

They believed that they were following Jesus. There is no provision in the Koran for executing apostates. The Sharía has about as much to do with religion as did the Inquisition. Of course this doesn't stop terrorists from claiming spiritual justification.

[Dr. Frank fan]

....under Philip II. There's no monolopy on idiocy.

Especially when you lump together actions by people long dead with actions by people alive today as if they both have equal relevance to an analysis of our world today (which they don't).

[bjcintennessee]

Was it Rumsfield's choice to make Gitmo public? Or did the press pick up on the controversy created by bleeding heart, anti-american groups like amnesty international and the red cross. If Rumsfield initiated it, I am certain is it because he felt we had nothing to hide -- which we don't, BTW. Our soldiers who are guarding these outcasts from humanity are living in worse conditions than the prisoners.

[Birdwatcher]

All religions have their dirty laundry but the Christians got past the killing of the heathens a few hundred years ago. All Christians agree it was wrong. The Islamic world can't even figure out if a suicide bomber is a terrorist. Big difference.

[My Identity]

From the Palestinian Violence video:

"Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are.
Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them.
Wherever you are, kill the Jews, the Americans who are like them, and those who stand by them.
They are all in one trench, against the Arabs and the Muslims.
They should be slaughtered. They should be murdered.
Such is the word of Allah."
- an Islamic mufti, broadcast on Pali TV

---

From MEMRI:

Sheikh Muhammad Sayyed Tantawi, top Imam of Al-Azhar University [Egypt], demanded that the Palestinian people, of all factions, intensify the martyrdom operations [i.e. suicide attacks] against the Zionist enemy, and described the martyrdom operations as the highest form of Jihad operations. He emphasized that every martyrdom operation against any Israeli, including children, women, and teenagers, is a legitimate act according to [Islamic] religious law, and an Islamic commandment, until the people of Palestine regain their land and cause the cruel Israeli aggression to retreat

and

"The solution to the Israeli terror lies in a proliferation of Fidai [martyrdom] attacks that strike horror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah. The Islamic countries, peoples and rulers alike, must support these martyrdom attacks."

- Sheikh Al-Tayyeb, Egypt’s new "moderate" mufti

and

"If it be through the death of Sharon or the death of Bush,
please brighten-up our hearts, O Lord,"

- Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati, head of Iran's powerful Guardian Council

and

"We must not stand in the way of the intifada and jihad [holy war].
Rather, we must stand at their side and encourage them."

- Sheikh Akrameh Sabri, Mufti of Jerusalem

---

and

"Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled and incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of other [countries] so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world...Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says: Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured [by the unbelievers]? Islam says: Kill them [the non-Muslims], put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]. Does this mean sitting back until [non-Muslims] overcome us? Islam says: Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! Does this mean that we should surrender to the enemy? Islam says: Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Koranic] psalms and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war? I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim."
- Ayatollah Khomeini, responding to apologists for Islam
(Taheri, Amir, Holy Terror, London 1987, pp. 226-7):

---

And more:

"These suicide attacks are the weapon that God gave to this nation, and no one can take it away. We tell Palestinians, stay tough. Our martyrs’ operations are laying the grounds for the coming victory. Do not listen to those who say these types of attacks go against Muslim Sharia (law). Those who say there are civilians and soldiers in Israel are mistaken. There are no civilians in Israeli society. All of them are invaders, collaborators in crimes and massacres, and it is for this reason that you must continue on your path"

- Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, Hizbullah’s secretary-general

---

and in the US:

Fatima Hussein, Idara Jaferia Islamic Center: "They are martyrs."

Shamshad A. Nasir, Imam of Bait-Ur-Rahman Mosque: "[the Palestinians] are protecting their country."

An anonymous cleric, Masji dush-Shura mosque: "suicide is [wrong], except... in a war."

---

and in Saudi Arabia:

Ghazi Algosaibi, Saudi Arabia's ambassador to London, the suicide bombers are "martyrs"

Sheik Saad-al Braik, Saudi cleric, supports "martyrdom operations against Israel"

---

So...
Muslim "True Believers" see the Arab-Israeli conflict as religious.
Therefore, any compromise with the Israelis is a heresey.
Therefore, any "peace process" that requires compromise is heresey.
Therefore, only complete surrender or complete victory will bring peace.

So far, the US has not let the Israelis obtain complete victory.
Therefore, Israel's only options are surrender or death.
And if Israel goes, the US is next on the islamists' list.
Or as they famously put it: "After Saturday comes Sunday".

If anyone can explain how Islam isn't the issue here, I would be eager to listen.
If anyone can explain how this isn't a clash of civilizations, please post away.

[Savage Beast]

So-called "Christians" who committed atrocities--under the Inquisition et al.--perhaps thought that they were serving God. They were not. They were serving Satan, to use a Christian and Muslim metaphor. Christianity has since evolved and expunged itself of devil-worship.

Muslims who commit atrocities today perhaps think that they are serving God. They are not. They are serving Satan, to use a Christian and Muslim metaphor. Islam should evolve beyond and expunge itself of devil-worship--or be abandoned by people who wish to serve God and do His will.

[Doctor Stochastic]

Good points. Seems like religion can be misused as easily (or maybe even more so) as other ideas. Really dangerous groups though are those like Al-Quaeda which combine Mafia like tactics and organization with religious fervor.

[JeepInMazar]

They believed that they were following Jesus.

True, but one who reads the teaching of Jesus can plainly see that Jesus did not teach His followers to behave that way. There is no provision in the Koran for executing apostates.

Although the Quran, when it stands on it's own, is not as clear on this issue, I do offer the following quote from Abu Ala Mawdudi, who is a well-known, respected Islamic scholar. In his book called "The Punishment of the Apostate According to Islamic Law" he writes:

"To everyone acquainted with Islamic law it is no secret that according to Islam the punishment for a Muslim who turnes to kufr (infidelity, blasphemy) is execution. Doubt about this matter first arose among Muslims during the final portion of the nineteenth century as a result of speculation. Otherwise, for the full twelve centuries prior to that time the total Muslim community remained unanimous about it." (translated by Syed Silas Husain and Ernest Hahn, 1994, p. 17)

The Sharía has about as much to do with religion as did the Inquisition.

I beg to differ with you on this point. The Quran, the Hadith, and Jurisprudence are the three pillars of Islam. Remove any of them and you don't have Islam. There is no major movement, and there never has been, among Muslims which call for the Quran and the Quran only. Muslims always look to the Hadith regarding issues which the Quran is either unclear about or does not address at all.

Make a study and compare the two on their face values: the life, teachings, and character of Mohammed and the life, teachings, and character of Jesus. By doing such a study, one can learn who are the true followers of each teacher. The true followers are not the ones who say they follow him, but are those who act and behave in the manner which they taught.

[BlackVeil]

Your post is scholarly and well-informed, but I would add some opinions on the other side. The death penalty for apostates was declared non-valid even in the early centuries of Islam (in Moorish Spain for instance) and Saladin, the 11th century warrior, denounced apostacy, because, he said "he never saw a bad Muslim become a good Christian, or a bad Christian become a good Muslim." The fact that Saladin spoke of seeing and knowing these people suggests that they were living among his community. The Islamic world has seen the emergence of several new religious forms, from the 11 century till now - such as the Druze and the Bahai. The people who converted were considered to be apostates from Islam, but the religious authorities often tolerated them on the grounds that only a "rebellious apostate", making war on an Islamic state, should be executed.

[JeepInMazar]

Thank you for your post. I appreciate what you have stated correctly. From my perspective, these are exceptions under to law of apostasy in Islam.

A big reason this is an important issue in our time is because many people who have left Islam are living in secret as followers of Christ. They are living under the sentence of death in places like Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia and if they would be caught, they will be killed, period.

In addition, there are many former Muslims living in the United States who fear speaking out publicly because they know and understand the clear teachings of Islam. I have many, many friends in the category. They are effectively living under the threat of persecution and even death right here in the U.S. I know two families who have moved because of the threats, one of these even leaving the United States!

If the points you have raised in your post are an accurate reflection of what Islam really teaches about this issue, then I say this: 

If there has ever been a place where Muslim leaders could speak out with tolerance about Muslims leaving Islam, 

and if there has ever been a time when Muslim leaders could speak out with tolerance about Muslims leaving Islam, 

this place is the United States and the time is right now. 

Were are the Muslim leaders in America who are speaking about this type of tolerance?

[FR_addict]

Even in the most democratic, tolerant forms of Islam the penalty of one who leaves Islam is death. There are different words for apostate in Islamic law. One who leaves Islam is called a murtad and a murdad should be killed, according to Islamic law. This is a very clear point in Islam, the religion of peace.

Needs to be repeated until everyone knows what murtad is.

[BlackVeil]

You wrote: "these are exceptions under to law of apostasy in Islam... this is an important issue in our time". I do agree, and I was only citing the historical examples to show that the current thinking is not inevitable, and probably not canonical to the religion. However, what is the use of the words of some long dead Sultan if no one now follows his example? Moreover, notions such as the death penalty for apostacy seem to be GROWING, not diminishing. The former President of Indonesia, AbdulRahman Wahid (sp?), himself a Muslim cleric, he recently gave a speech against this misuse of the death penalty, and he pointed out that it is an offence against freedom of conscience. But when people like him speak out, they often get called apostates themselves.

[JeepInMazar]

Thanks for your response and clarification. What you have said makes a lot of sense to me.

[Quila]

Sort of like the Inquisition did with relapsed Conversos. Spanish Jews and Moslems forced to convert to Christianity who were suspected of keeping Jewish or Moslem traditions were subject to the death penalty under Philip II. There's no monolopy on idiocy.

Yep, stuff like this is a trademark of most theocracies.

[Quila]

He emphasized that every martyrdom operation against any Israeli, including children, women, and teenagers, is a legitimate act according to [Islamic] religious law, and an Islamic commandment, until the people of Palestine regain their land and cause the cruel Israeli aggression to retreat

I would love for one of these guys to point out exactly in the Koran where murder of the innocent is allowed. I couldn't find it, and it doesn't seem to go in line with the resot of the Koran. Murder of innocents does, however, seem to be very inline with this guy's politics. Politics and religion: a scary mix.

If anyone can explain how Islam isn't the issue here, I would be eager to listen.

Islamic and Jewish fundamentalist issue, yes, those guys are scary. OTOH, Israel's done some pretty bad stuff in the recent days, but nothing compares with the sheer cowardice of purposely suicide-bombing women and children.

[Quila]

Muslims who commit atrocities today perhaps think that they are serving God. They are not. They are serving Satan, to use a Christian and Muslim metaphor. Islam should evolve beyond and expunge itself of devil-worship

Except for the technicalities on the devil stuff, I have to agree on the general point.

Unfortunately, Christianity is over 600 years ahead of Islam. And since it got overall relatively civil only in the last few hundred years, that might mean Islam has about 300 years of growing up to do before it becomes overall civil. But I don't think it will. As soon as there are no more really Islamic states, things may get better much more quickly.

[Attillathehon]

There's no monolopy on idiocy.

I'll agree with you there!

However, it should be noted that the clowns you mentioned were not following the teachings of Jesus. But the Muslims in this report are following the teachings of Mohammed.

It also didn't take place in the twenty-first century!

[Quila]

Really dangerous groups though are those like Al-Quaeda which combine Mafia like tactics and organization with religious fervor.

Sounds familiar. (mirror)