The rise of neo-paganism (No, this one is NOT SATIRE)

National Review Online ^ | 27th September 1999 | Roger Scruton

[LiberalBuster]

>>Surely you agree that Christianity must be supreme 
>>above pagan, immoral superstition?
>>
>>Now that's funny! Christianity leads to selective 
>>stupidity, like how the author of the article 
>>conveniently forgot that Jim Jones and David Koresh were 
>>Christian nutcases.
>>
>>The current idiocy in the Catholic church

What a waste of time. You can find examples/extremes in each religion to "disprove" its legitimacy. For every Christian extremist/whacko you reference, I can find a Muslim, Jewish, Atheist counter-part. So, what's the point? There is none! Using fringe examples is pointless. After all the spin from all sides, we return to the same point. Uncertainty reigns. The weak will gravitate towards an explanation/religion to deal with the uncertainty. The rest will accept the uncertainty as being part of life.

[Cleburne]

Eh, they probably were:) But the South, in general, has tended to be more open towards other faiths. Of course, we do not agree with them, but tensions between religions have tended to be rare in the South. Now, as some have commented, this may be true, but the South has had the distinct racial relations, not found elsewhere in this country (as in blacks and whites), to make up for it unfortunately.

[ladyinred]

I did enjoy reading this article in spite of the controversary it has caused on this thread! (gee, what a surprise!:) )
One of the sad things to me is, not only has this country turned from it Christian roots, they now deny we were founded on them to begin with.
You know, the old "repeat a lie often enough, and people will begin to believe it."
A good read, thanks for posting it.

BTW: I do know something about wicca, and more important to them than "do no harm" is the tenet, "Do what thou wilt." (meaning, do what you want.)

[LiberalBuster]

>>They make no secret of any of this. It is part of Wiccan 
>>belief. Just ask anyone who knows about it.

I'm not going to let you off that easy. I need an explicit reference to demonstrate/prove your assertion that: "Wicca is a cult that encourages liberalism, moral relativism, witchcraft, abortion, homosexuality, lesbianism, feminism and the idea that your daughter can screw around as much as she likes without it mattering a jot."

[Cleburne]

Ah, but Chesterson was right! You state that you believe in yourself. Of course, I doubt you see yourself as a god, but you do believe in something. And, I suspect, though perhaps you have not had it yet, you will one day find yourself like Casca before Pompey's statue, believing in something very foolsih, but needed under tense situations. Perhaps you shan't. But I believe you will, though you may surpress it. There is One in whom our belief should lie, you know. Though I must ask your pardon of my brothers here who may not wish to show it to you in the finest terms. They do not truely mean harm, I believe.

[Dimensio]

America was founded by Christian Puritans

An overly simplified and woefully incomplete telling of history. Some colonies in North America were created by rather nasty and rude Christian Puritians, other were created by far more "liberal" (ie, not imposing the death penalty for missing church) types. Some of the colonies settled by the more "liberal" Christians were overrun by the Puritians who establishsed their hard-core rules...

...of course none of that matters, since that was all prior to the United States of America's existence.

[discostu]

"Do what thou wilt" is from Crowley and his Golden Dawn group. While there is a lot of crossover (a lot of Wiccans are also Golden Dawners and both groups use a lot of the same pagan gods) they are two seperate groups. Crediting one with the tenents of the other is like blaiming Catholocism for Lutheranism.

[Dimensio]

And if it is your daughter, or your niece, or your neighbour's kid, do you start to care then?

What you recommend? Compulsory Christianity by the government? Outlawing any expression of non-Christian religious belief?

[EternalVigilance]

As long as neither neo-paganism nor any other "belief system" infringes on my person or property, I don't give a rat's @ss what people believe/preach/practice/etc.

Ah, but there's the rub...it always will, eventually.

What one believes about God will always find a way to work itself out into the body politic.

Every culture that rejects the Light sinks further and further into the darkness...examples from throughout history abound, for those who care to look with the blinders of their preconceived notions off.

[discostu]

Hmm... how to respond to such a scatter post. And yet another attempt to read my mind. Oh I know.

Whatever.

[JMJ333]

You're nothing more than a bigot. And as usual, you won't adress me. Typical for a mental midget.

[Cleburne]

Yes, but uncertainty need not reign. I am not uncertain, I am quite certain of these "uncertain things". Certainly (durn!) there are some things of which I am unsure, but my faith is neither blind, nor does it lie- my beliefs- lie only on faith, though that is a great deal of it of course (And, incidentaly, a part of uncertainty, for faith can not be proven- here- but is actually never fully certain, as our reason would have it. But reason is not the sum of the human, no, not the whole sum.)

[wimpycat]

Do you actually know anything about Wicca? Of course not. The highest precept of their faith is "do no harm". Not a bad start for a moral foundation I think.

"Love thy neighbor" is a much better moral foundation.

[Dimensio]

I've been an atheist for 20 years and haven't played with any of that stuff.

Many believers insit on telling you that you have some belief about yourself being a god or being all-knowing or some other such nonsense. Basically they accuse you of arrogance and presume to know exactly how you think and act without ever meeting you.

Cal Thomas did a lovely op-ed on atheists and how foolish they were. A perfect example of mindless arrogant diatribe devoid of logic.

(Note: I am not accusing all Christians of behaving in this manner).

[discostu]

Love thy neighbor is nice. But as Letterman used to say: this is an exhibition not a competition, please as always, no wagering. I've spent a fair amount of time looking for the ultimate moral foundation, what I've found is that most religions share most of their tenents. They might express it differently but for the most part the rules are the same. And oddly enough they're also the same as The Social Contract. Everybody has to find the way to learn these rules that works best for them.

[EternalVigilance]

Haiti is a nation that as a body rejected Christ, and openly chose witchcraft. Their tropical paradise became a barren wasteland full of starving babies.

The other half of the same island, known as the Dominican Republic, chose Christ; and remains a lush and productive oasis to this day.

That little island is one of the best illustrations of the importance of whom a society chooses to serve imaginable.

[EternalVigilance]

I've spent a fair amount of time looking for the ultimate moral foundation, what I've found is that most religions share most of their tenents. They might express it differently but for the most part the rules are the same. And oddly enough they're also the same as The Social Contract. Everybody has to find the way to learn these rules that works best for them.

Read C.S. Lewis' 'Mere Christianity'.

He pretty much says what you say in this particular post...but then he clearly explains the ramifications of that similarity of belief.

[discostu]

And, to show I'm a nice guy and can see both side of the arguement, there are a number of atheists out there who will go into great detail on what you must think to be a Christian. Like with so many conflicting groups I think if we just shot the loud mouths and then sat down to talk like grown-ups we'd find we have a lot more in common.

[discostu]

There are different interpretations depending on what your starting point is. I've read a number of Christians who have come to the conclusion that God did this to help people find the way. IMHO these are just plain good rules that are absolutely necessary for the survival of a society and it strikes me as quite natural that most sub groupings of humanity have figured it out. Of a much greater mystery to me is how so many societies figured out distilled liquor, if you know anything about distilling you know that doing it wrong is very dangerous, I definitely would not have wanted to be involved in those early experiments.