Former FBI Agent Dan Vogel Should Testify About the OKC Bombing

CBS 60 Minutes II, Daily Oklahoman, New American Magazine, Channel 8 Dallas ^ | May 9, 2002 | Patick B. Briley

[Tymesup]

thanks for the info

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for the kudos and encouragement!

I agree that the facts at OKC don't add up, but I haven't gotten into the data gathering and analysis because there are already so many truly heavy hitter Freepers working on it.

The media should have done all this research long ago. I agree that the atmosphere today breeds evil because some are not doing their jobs, others are obstructing the effort, and much of the public doesn't care.

[Alamo-Girl]

You're quite welcome!

[Woodstock]

FYI

[OKCSubmariner]

Former OK State Rep Chrales Key just sent out a fund raising letter for his OKC bombing investigations committee asking for donations to continue his efforts to press Congress and use attorneys on the OKC bombing case.

In his letter Key also reveals that FBI agent Dan Vogel retained David Schippers as his attorney to represent Vogel in matters pertaining to the OKC bombing. Schippers is also representing FBI agent Robert Wright in matters pertaining to the 9/11 attacks.

Late last year Jayna Davis called me and threatened me to shut up about waht I knew about Vogels misconduct in the OKC bombing case. In the call Davis fully acknowledged Vogel's misconduct as it relates to the OKC bombing and my wife, but Davis persisted that I should shut up anyway. I took this as a complete disregard by Davis for the welfare of my wife (who has talked to Davis before) and me.

Now that Key has revealed that Jayna Davis attorney David Schippers is representing Vogel, it may explain in part Davis actions to call me late last year to threaten me to keep quite about the questionable things I know about Vogels conduct carrying out orders as an FBI agent.

I wonder if Schippers knows that Davis did this to me and if Schippers really knows the complete story about Vogel. I wonder if Vogel really intends to use Schippers to testify about what Vogel knows OR if Vogel wants Schippers to shield Vogel from having to testify about the most significant details possibly incriminating to Vogel and the FBI.

In other words I have concerns that Vogel will only tell the least significant parts he knows (if he is compelled to) and use Schippers to help Vogel avoid telling the worst things Vogels may know -damage control. I have similar concerns about how Schippers will be used in the Robert Wright case.

A source very close to Schippers has told me twice that Schippers really does not intend to do anything really serious about evidence pointing to FBI misconduct in the OKC bombing and 9/11 attacks. The source reiterated this again in conjunction to questions and info directed by Freepers to Schippers in conjunction with Schippers radio appearance with Doug on Freeper radio.

This source is in a position to know and the source is disgusted about what they have seen heard Schippers say about his handling of the OKC and 9/11 matters. If this source is correct then damage control for the FBI and FBI agents may be at play here in my opinion. If the source is wrong, then something is not right since the source is so close to Schippers that Schippers could have this person put out a false story to me. Or the source could just have an axe to grind with Schippers and be making the whole thing up.

But the source is so close to Schippers I would be remiss in not reporting this information-it is important because either the source or Schippers may be doing something very wrong here. I have let this story be known to Schippers through another channel to be fair to Schippers and yet still put him on notice that I know something is wrong.

I hope and pray the source is wrong and that Schippers is not behind this. The source did not want me to use the source name but held two lengthy phone calls with me about it and wanted me to know their story and their disgust over it.

Davis also threatened me in the past to shut up about what she and I both learned about the misconduct of FBI agents Zimms and Jon Hersely. These threats came twice ,just before (a few days) both of apperances before the OKC COunty grand Jury.

I hope Vogel does come forward and testify before COngress and the Nichols trials about what Vogel knows as my article in this thread states. But I hope is testimony is full and complete and will not be limited by the FBI,DOJ,White House or legal maneuvering by any attorneys trying to shield the FBi, Vogel and the government from the public learning of any misconduct they may have been involved in.

[Askel5]

Forgive my being utterly ignorant but what is the connection between the link and David Koresh?

[Askel5]

And while you're here ... what does Alamo-Girl mean by "WMD" theory. Thanks archy.

[Askel5]

The quote is from an article in the 3-20-1996 Strategic Investment Newsletter.

Something else I'd missed entirely ... even despite my fascination with the Colby death when first I arrived at this place.

[Askel5]

Thanks for the heads up. I'd missed this post somehow.

[Betty Jo]

If I didnt love ya sooo much, I woud hate you!

I keep reading, and keep getting more confused.

Please excuse my ignorance,but could you answer these questions in a short,short format?

Official name of report Bodansky gave to the House?

Date?

Was it in a Classified session?

Is this report in the public, unclassified, domain?

If in closed session, who was on the committee?

Can we not say that those that received this nfo,therefore, know this nfo and have sat on it for years?

Therefore, these members have lied to the public for years re:ME's at Murrah?

Have you personaly communicated to these members that you know that they know of ME's at Murrah?

If these members know, and Clinton admin and Bush admin know, then do we not have an allmost total cover-up of murders?

Do we not have evidence of obstruction of justice of murder?

Sorry for being soo dumb, but if you can answer these questions in my format, my weedle head can maybe start doing sumpin with the nfo. Thanks!

[backhoe]

This just went out in a mass email to letters to editors and "opinionators"- like Rush & Hannity. It will get seen, at least.

[backhoe]

I also wanted to throw out a WAG ( wild-a$$ed guess ) that's been kicking around my thoughts for years. That's all it is- a theory.

First time I saw an overhead view of that building, I exclaimed to my wife, "Heaving charge, Hell! That was a cutting charge!"

Ammonium nitrate ( AN ) and fuel oil make a demolition charge of medium brisance, or shattering power. This refers to the speed of the detonation wave in meters per second, and obviously, the lower it is, the more of a "heave" it gives; the higher, the more of a triphammer, shattering shock it yields.

Where this gets interesting is this: if, rather than fuel oil, you mix the AN with nitromethane or hydrazine ( both are liquid rocket fuels ) you get variants of Astrolite, the most powerful common non-nuclear explosive known today. It is commonly used as a "liquid mine"-- pour some in the ground, cap it, and you have a mine. Cloth can be saturated with it and detonated, as drapes and rugs in a house.

My point being, the AN-fuel oil bomb would certainly have wrecked the building, but an Astrolite bomb would have shattered it more-- perhaps accounting for the overhead view where it looked "cut."

[OKCSubmariner]

You make good technical points in your reply #32 backhoe.

General Partin's analysis ( he sent it to every US Senator) showed that no matter what the mixture was or its shock velocity, the pattern and distribution of damage to columns (there was evidence of brisance on some key support columns) in the building was not explained by a single truck bomb. The single truck bomb alone also does not explain photographic and eyewitness evidence of very heary debris (large boulder that hit Journal Record building about three to four stories up the side of the building) being thrown OUT of the Murrah building.

Prosecutor Beth Wilkinson and FBI inspector Danny Defenbaugh vistied PArtin at his home in 1995. The interview was taped and I have listened to the tape. I also arranged to have PArtin's attorney present during the interview. Defenbaugh at one point said cryptically, suppose I tell you that where the truck bomb crater is is not the location of the source that did the damage to the Murrah building? Defnbaugh also said to Partin that the only way his anlayis could be correct is for the columns to have been drilled for explosives. Defenbaugh's statement was very incorrect. Partin tried to explain to Defenbaugh that charges could have been put close to the colums and cut the colums without the columns ever being drilled.

The man who I think could possibly have given direction to the OKC bombing planning ,ALi Mohammed (Egyptian lieutenant for Bin Laden and FBI informant), was arrested in 1998 having documents showing how to plant explosives in public buildings

[backhoe]

Thanks- it is just one of those weird ideas that pops up unbidden- I could not account for the "cut" appearance from overhead without resorting to some sort of Monroe-effect shaped charge... or multiple demolition charges.

FWIW- this?

Defenbaugh that charges could have been put close to the columns and cut the columns without the columns ever being drilled.

is correct. Drilling is seen in commercial demolition operations to most efficently demolish/shear/cut, but standard military practice ( and bear in mind my training was long, long ago ) is to simply wrap charges- usually 2 staggered opposite each other, off-center, to "push" the structural member in two directions at once to shear it. It's also much faster to place charges that way.

[carenot]

Defenbaugh at one point said cryptically, suppose I tell you that where the truck bomb crater is is not the location of the source that did the damage to the Murrah building?

I remember that the crater under the truck was not as deep as it should have been and it was covered over.

I also remember they cleaned it all up real fast.

Like they did at Waco.

[lawdog]

You have mail !

[OKCSubmariner]

Response to reply #30:

From a NEwsMAx article posted on FR describing Bodanskys statements made during his appearance on Fox News:

The official warning memo indicated that there would be an attempt by ME terrorists to attack a Federal building in the Heartland of AMerica using "lily whites". Bodansky said the memo included a list of likely targets and the Murrah building was one of the targets on the list. The reference to lily whites has been widely interpreted as a reference to Americans who had no criminal records and who were Caucasians. SOme have suggested it may have even been a reference to McVeigh , Nichols and other domestic John Does.

Bodansky indicated his memo went to those Federal law enforcement, intelligence groups and members in COngress with a need to know. I do not know specifically who he was referring to. But...

Bodansky was the Director of the House Task Force on Terrorism at the time he prepared and sent out his memo. Bodansky's boss was the Chairman of the House Task Force on Terrorism, Republican COngressman James Saxon of New Jersey. Presummably Bodansky would have sent his memo to Saxon, Bodasnkys boss, and to other members of the House TAsk Force.

According to the LA Weekly, Bodansky called KFORTV reporter Jayna Davis in 1996 and asked/told her not to go public with BOdanskys memo because it was "too hot". Bodansky had either given Davis a copy or read/described to her a copy of his memo or both. "Too hot" may have been a reference to the embarassment and cuplability of elected and law enforcement officials who had seen the memo before the bombing including Saxon and other members of the House TAsk Force. In effect, BOdansky was covering up then and covered this up until after 9/11.

Davis helped Bodansky in the sense that she did not reveal the specifics of the Bodansky memo for almost six years even though she had the details and was urged by investigators, attorneys and journalists to reveal the details. She also had the opportunity to reveal the details at the McVeigh trial and the OKC COunty grand jury but did not to my knowledge. She could have revealed the details of the memo several years before her pregnancy and several years after her pregnancy but did not.

I have spoken personally to OK COngressman Istook and Senator Inhofe about information they allegedly received pertaining to a ME connection to the OKC bombing. Istook is to have told two Sherifffs deputies the night of the bombing that the government had received a threat from a local ME terror group on APril 9, 1995 and Istook said "we blew it". The deputies were to have testified before the OKC County grand jury. One of the Sheriffs, Dave Kochendorfer, was threatened by FBI agent James Carlisle before his testimony before the grand jury. The two sheriffs held a news conference in Dec 1997 about their encounter with Istook on the night of the bombing.

Inhofe's chief of staff, Herb Johnson, wrote a letter describing the fact that an FBI agent at the FBI command center in OKC told Johnson the week of the bombing that the DOJ wanted to keep the ME involvement out of the press and from the public. I spoke directly to Inhofe about this in January 1999. So far he has taken no adequate action with the information.

I have written and posted several articles about IStook and Inhofe on the FreeRepublic since 2000.

[OKCSubmariner]

One important detail I accidently omitted from my reply #36:

Bodansky said on Fox News that the date of his warning memo was March 3, 1995, more than a month before the OKC bombing on April 19, 1995.

[Nancie Drew]

I guess that Schippers would not return OKCSubmariner's calls so he is going to trash Schipper's reputation. If this keeps up, no one will be able to carry the banner for truth. I am very disturbed that OKCSubmariner would post something that may have been given to him for disinformation purposes. That is very reckless. He obviously does not try to really check out what is told to him. I have finally figured OKCSub out. Obviously,someone is feeding him information and he is buying it hook, line, and sinker. That is evidently what he is doing to Jayna about insisting that she told Pat that she was working FOR someone. For him to keep on insisting even when told otherwise, he must have some "insider" information that contradicts the truth. I am reposting what I had put on another thread. He also will not accept that Jayna was forthcoming with the Grand Jury on the prior warning. He is only going to continue to spew another untruth.

[Nancie Drew]

I was able to find a response that I had given to Honway on April 18, 2002. I am reprinting all of it this time because it gives some background on what is going on. The entire thread was pulled so this response was pulled when the thread was pulled. I know there have been some questions raised about Pat's background and he has responded. I am not sure what his present occupation is because he had said recently that he is still unemployed. He had said that he has been unemployed since 1986.

Here is what I posted on April 18:
A while back, I said something to you about responding to Pat Briley’s comments on Free Republic about Jayna Davis. This thread seems to have fizzled out, but maybe the people that are interested will still see it. If you find my comments helpful, please flag anyone you know that would be interested. Some of the comments I am responding to are on other threads. I know you feel that people should not be attacking one another, but also Freepers should not be allowed to get away with posting such lies.

The derogatory postings did not begin until this year. Pat had never criticized Jayna or BlueDogDemo until January of this year. The problem began because Pat was mad at them for not returning his telephone calls. He felt cut out and started lashing out on the Internet. He also felt like he was not getting credit for contributions he had made to the investigation of the OKC Bombing. His January postings give his motives for the sudden turn-around. Jayna has not been in any situation to acknowledge everyone that has helped her, so it is a shame that he is directing his anger at her.

Pat is also angry because no one has investigated for him his Traveler’s Aid evidence and feels like a lot of repercussions will come from this failure. He is lashing out at many people for this failure. He sees a lack of cooperation (His characterization) between different investigators as an impediment to getting the complete truth out. This makes him extremely angry. He has a lot of harsh criticism towards Jayna because of this. He wants to draw Jayna away from all she is doing to answer these accusations. Besides the physical toll that all this has taken on her, she frankly needs to devote her energies elsewhere right now. Free Republic is an important forum, but it is obvious from the comments that the Freepers still have great respect for her. However, I thought I would give it a shot to try to respond to some of the accusations. I will not try to do all of them, but I hope my answers will give you a sense of how Jayna operates and why I have such profound respect for her investigative abilities.

Since September 11, there has been renewed interest in the Middle Eastern connection to the OKC Bombing. Jayna is fielding calls from interested parties, and this has led to several articles being written. Fox News has done an outstanding job of bringing the issues to the public. She has made two trips to D.C. to meet with key people so she has had to spend countless hours updating her investigation. The part that she has left with several important groups and individuals has around 2,000 pages. Keeping in touch with witnesses, sending out press packets, “making copies”, is a full-time job. It has been since 1995. There is a limit to how much one person should be expected to do. She also has a 4-year old to raise. She cannot investigate all the information that is given her. She is doing her very best.

Jayna’s investigation has focused mostly on the Middle Eastern connection. The first lead came from a call to the station from a lady who was concerned that the FBI did not seem to be investigating a lead she felt was very important. That led to the initial story that was aired on KFOR. That initial tip would lead Jayna to start asking questions and one thing would lead to another. That is usually the nature of a good investigation. KFOR did not ignore the domestic side. In fact, there were several stories done about domestic terrorism.

I have had the privilege of observing Jayna first-hand in her investigation and have the utmost respect for her abilities. Unlike the amateur investigators, she was trained at the University of Texas as an investigative reporter. That was always her specialty and KFOR hired her as an investigative reporter. Her 2,000-page investigation is incredible! She has an extremely high standard for information to find its way into that report. She does not put in everything that comes her way.

One of the things that we were aware of early on is that there would be agents of disinformation sent our way. You had to do a lot of questioning of information knowing that 90% of it could be the absolute truth, but were these people giving you 10% lies in order to discredit you. It was hard to know whom to trust. It was also obvious that there were people willing to lie about Jayna to trash her reputation. A call fielded by the late Jack Eden, a radio talk show host in Oklahoma City, woke us up to that reality.

Pat mentions J.D.Cash in an earlier posting and how Cash threatened Pat’s life. So it does surprise me that Pat would want Jayna to work with him. I will not go into the reasons why, but Cash came under suspicion right away as being an agent of disinformation. Pat says that Jayna tried to steer Pat away from domestic terrorism. Since Jayna definitely believes in the domestic terrorism angle of all this, she would not steer Pat away from it. She would try to steer him away from certain individuals, like J.D. Cash. Pat says that Cash expressed disdain for his talking to Jayna and the Middle Eastern connection. The Clinton administration had a definite agenda and did not want the M.E. connection to come out. If Cash was an agent of disinformation, it makes sense that he would trash Jayna. In fact, I have seen information on Free Republic about Cash that indicated that others were suspicious of him. I would also put Roger Charles in the camp of the Clinton administration.

Pat mentions Charles Key in his posting. Key is one of those amateur investigators that did not filter out things, which may have been given to him to discredit him. He had a lady on his staff named Kate McCauley, who absolutely fit the profile of an agent of disinformation. I received a call from a relative who had heard Key speak. Kate was with him. My relative has had extensive experience investigating disinformation agents. She had investigated one such agent that was used after Waco. She said that she visited with Kate after Key spoke and was disturbed by how she ended up coming to Oklahoma City to help Key. Something did not add up to her. I also visited with Kate, and realized that she was another one that was trying to steer the investigation away from M.E. involvement and focus only on domestic. I am not sure how much harm she did to Key’s investigation since I was not personally involved, but I do know that Key was a late-comer to making the M.E. connection an important focus. Another problem is that he did not filter out the inconsistencies in the witnesses that he presented to the grand jury. His desire was that the grand jury would figure out the truth. This may have caused him to lose credibility. I do not know how much Kate had to do with his decision. If she was an agent of disinformation, then her goal may have been to try to discredit his investigation. Give him 90% truth, but ruin him with the 10% of lies. I have seen people lose their credibility with Freepers when there was just one little inaccuracy. It does not surprise me that Jayna would find it hard to work with Key, and I am sure that Kate wanted it that way, too. Kate McCauley was asked by McVeigh to be one of his witnesses when he was executed. She had started corresponding with him while he was incarcerated. She also assisted Lou Michel and Dan Herbeck with their book on McVeigh that spouted the official government line.

Another problem in investigating the domestic side was the long list of government informants, Carol Howe, Millar, Mahon, Strassmier, to name a few. Pat has mentioned these and others. The M.E. connection was easy compared to the mess on the domestic side. Jayna does not have the resources to begin to whack through that mess. She is comfortable with the accuracy of what she has on the M.E. side. It is not as simple as Pat makes it seem. It is a shame that he is criticizing her for not doing this investigation the way he wanted it done. It is O.K. to have a difference of opinion but he is publicly criticizing Jayna in a most vicious manner. This is bewildering.

Jayna has fought to maintain her credibility. When you are lumped in with people that have lost their credibility, it can be hard to overcome. Nita Nupress has had some very wise comments and some instruction on how to get people to listen. Glory girl also had some suggestions. Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS). You cannot just dump all you know on people and you have to use wisdom. Jayna has tried to use wisdom in every decision she has made. Others are second-guessing her, but I think she has done an outstanding job. She has had to negotiate minefields.

Pat has commented numerous times that he was responsible for Jayna going to the FBI in 1999. The reason she decided to try again in 1999 had nothing to do with Pat or anyone else who had been telling her the same thing. It had to do with one call from a witness. I cannot go into details but Jayna called the FBI after this witness called and said, “I am not the Department of Justice, I am not the FBI. I will not be responsible if something else happens. You need to investigate what is going on.”

Pat also takes credit for getting her with Schippers. Several of us had read Schippers book and all of us who had read it (Jayna, her husband, me) were saying, “Call Schippers”. Great minds think alike. Pat may have called Schippers and told him to call Jayna but Schippers did not call her. Jayna initiated the call. Pat was one of many that recognized in Schippers the qualities that Jayna needed.

Another accusation involves Pat taking credit for Al Hussaini information in late April of ’95. Actually, this was before the stories even aired on KFOR, so he may have his dates wrong. The Republican Guard information that was on Hussein was in the Gazette so many people had that information including Jayna. He may be talking about the information on the prisoners captured during the Gulf War including the Republican Guard that were later brought to the U.S. during the Clinton administration. He accuses Jayna of taking this information off another reporter’s desk. Jayna said that this is an absolute lie.

While I am writing this small book, sorry about the length, I did want to point out another inconsistency in Pat’s recent postings. He mentions on February 18, Post #20, Paul Bedard. Pat writes the following, “At the time, the author, Paul Bedard, told me that the original source of his information came out of the Assistant Secretary of Defense’s office for Paul Wolfowitz.” That was also what he told Jayna. There is a huge difference in what he says in other postings where it was Wolfowitz himself. Bedard denied that he told Pat that it was Wolfowitz himself. No wonder Bedard was upset with Pat. It looks like another door closed to Pat.

Pat obviously has alienated many people, (by his own admission). He has now alienated Jayna by his accusations. This posting does not begin to address all the untruths that have been told by Pat. For a while, I did not choose to respond to the untruths, hoping that his hurt and anger would subside. I have tried to respond in a way where I gave some information on how this investigation has progressed and why certain decisions were made. I tried to keep the attacks on Pat to a minimum although I am extremely angry with him. (You should have read my first draft!)

Free Republic is an incredible forum but it can be misused. In this case, it has been. I am glad that there are people listening to Jayna.