School Districts Try to Save Pre-K

The Orlando Sentinel ^ | 5/22/02 | Lori Horvitz

[summer]

No, the correct answer is what I ALREADY explained to you: GREED and PROFIT!

Here's a very sincere suggestion for you, because you sound more clueless with each of your posts: Go out there and get a teaching job at a private school that charges the highest tuition you can find -- and then post back to me! OK? Take care. :)

[On the Road to Serfdom]

You are the one who is clueless. Go study up on labor marked supply and demand. I don't care how much tuition is currently charged at particular schools, they can pay low wages because the wage of private school teachers is determined by the supply and demand for private school teachers. The demand for private school teachers is low, therefore wages are low. Why is the demand so low? Because there are fewer private shools than there would be if it were not for the unfair governemnt "competition". If there were more private schools demanding more teachers their wages would be higher.

[summer]

LOL...honey, you're talking to someone who has a lot more experience than you in these matters. Have a good day! :)

[On the Road to Serfdom]

Your right, I have never been a K-12 teacher. You have the experience; I have an understanding of economics. I guess well leave it at that. At least we can agree on Janet Reno :)

[summer]

Newsflash: You need a refresher course in economics as well. And, seriously -- go out there and find out more about high-tuition charges at private schools verses LOW teaching salaries at those same schools. You may have a stroke when you discover that Burger King managers and municipal sanitation workers often earn more money than private schools that charge parents a near fortune per year. It's a sad and sorry fact of life. As for Reno, maybe we agree on her. :)

[Salvation]

To your remarks about NEA:
Many people do not know what is really happening in the NEA -- even teachers.

NEA and GLSEN Seek to Stifle Free Speech

They just want to tell you how to believe.

[On the Road to Serfdom]

Newsflash: You need a refresher course in economics as well.

How so? You have not logically refuted even one of my economic assertions.

And, seriously -- go out there and find out more about high-tuition charges at private schools verses LOW teaching salaries at those same schools. You may have a stroke when you discover that Burger King managers and municipal sanitation workers often earn more money than private schools that charge parents a near fortune per year.

Since I have been trying to explain to you why private school salaries are so low, why would I have a stroke if I “go out there” and see that they are low? I don’t have the numbers but I would bet a typical Burger King brings in more revenue per employee per year than a typical private school. Of course, revenue does not completely determine salary. Supply and demand determines salary.

You never answered my question how movie star and professional athletes are paid so much even though they have greedy employers. Is it really your position that private school owners are greedier than sports team owners? Greedier than airline CEO’s who pay high pilot salaries? Greedier than Bill Gates who pays many people over a million dollars per year?

I am sorry, but differences in salaries between Burger King managers, Private School teachers, Pilots, and Computer Programmers are not due to differences in greed. The differences in salaries are due to differences in the supply and demand for the particular types of labor.

[Truth Addict]

The differences in salaries are due to differences in the supply and demand for the particular types of labor.

Another factor at work here is that most small private (especially religious or church-based) schools try very hard to keep tuition costs as low as possible to enable more families access to their school. Therefore, they just cannot afford to pay their teachers more, even if they wanted to.

They are still able to attract good teachers because there are many who are more motivated by a desire to work in a school that is not dominated by government control. They want the freedom to allow religious expression, to offer alternatives to evolutionary theory, to teach the religious underpinnings of our nation, and much more that is not allowed in public schools. These dedicated teachers are willing to forego the higher salaries offered by the public system in order to be free to teach without the burden of complying with government censorship. They are not "slave laborers", but are answering to a higher calling.

[On the Road to Serfdom]

Thank you TA, everything you say is true. I would point out that your explanation is not “another factor” in addition to Supply and Demand but rather is part of supply and demand. (I am not sure you meant to imply that so if not I apologize)

For example, when most schools try to keep tuition low this means less revenue and less quantity demanded of teachers at any given wage. This lesser demand for teachers means lower salaries. (Summer: That a few particular schools charge high tuition does not mean salaries at those school would be higher than the overall market salary for private school teachers. The extra tuition may be used to attract better teachers with higher salaries but just as legitimately, it could be used to buy expensive computers, nicer buildings, expensive field trips, etc. If it all goes to profit it is hard to see why the parents would continue to go along with it).

At the same time, more teachers being willing to teach at private schools because of the reasons you specified means higher supply of private school teachers which also lowers salaries.

[Truth Addict]

your explanation is not “another factor” in addition to Supply and Demand but rather is part of supply and demand.

Sorry I didn't make that clearer. Yes I did mean to say that it is another factor in the supply and demand equation, not separate from it.

[summer]

The differences in salaries are due to differences in the supply and demand for the particular types of labor.

No, it's due to Greed plus Profit plus the fact teachers are underpaid as they are not respected as professionals. That's why.

[summer]

I really don't want to post anymore, because you just have no idea what the facts truly are out there. Here is a fact for you that you have not yet acknowledged:

Business people are in business. And, they are in business for one purpose: to make money. Because if they do not make money, they are: OUT of business.

There are K-12 and K-8 private schools that charge a 5-figure annual tuition which rival than the cost of tuition at Ivy League universities. And, no, there are no brand new computer labs, sorry. Instead, after the parent forks over the 5-figure tuition, the parent is told: NOW YOU MUST ATTEND A FUNDRAISER SO WE CAN BUY A NEW COMPUTER.

Why? Because MONEY GOES TO THE OWNER OF THAT BUSINESS. And, if you ask ANY business owner, who is MAKING MONEY, they will tell you one way to make MORE money is to keep LABOR COSTS LOW.

This stuff is not a secret. But, parents who shell out this kind of money are very unaware of how low the teacher salaries truly are, and, are very much into the "social" scene of that private school, because ALL the rich people in town send their kids there, and ALL the parents will certainly be at the fundraiser, even if it costs $500 per ticket to attend. There are a lot of factors in the private school scene that you know nothing about, and I am not talking about tiny religious pre-Ks that operate on a shoe-string budget. I am talking about the private school BUSINESS.
Also, FYI, even those teachers who hear a "higher calling" as some say still have to pay their bills. In NYC, which has a sky-high cost of living, a Catholic high school teacher in a Catholic high school earns, after ten years, LESS than $40,000 per year. So what did these teachers do? They actually went on strike last year. Here's the article:

CLICK HERE.

[summer]

Oh, a correction -- after 21 (TWNETY-ONE years) the Catholic private high school teacher is still earning LESS than $40K. From above link:

Many teachers said they had to work second jobs to make ends meet. One of those, Patricia Conklin, who was hurrying from Cathedral High School on the Upper East Side to her second job as a private tutor, said she had taught math at Cathedral for 21 years and makes $38,000 a year.

[Truth Addict]

I am not talking about tiny religious pre-Ks that operate on a shoe-string budget. I am talking about the private school BUSINESS.

Summer, sorry to jump in here on your post to OTRTS, but this line caught my attention.

If all the comments that you have been making regarding private schools were directed at what I would consider elite academies (with five figure tuition), then I can understand your attitude. You need to be aware that all of my comments have been from the perspective of the religious or church-based private schools. These schools do not operate out of a greedy motivation, but one of offering a service that many parents desperately need.

These religious or church-based schools constitute by far the majority of private schools across the nation, so why direct all your comments towards these elite schools? Everything you say about them may very well be true, and if so, there is much to criticize them for, but the religious schools are far different and don't deserve the same criticism.

[summer]

You need to be aware that all of my comments have been from the perspective of the religious or church-based private schools.

TA, Thank you, and I meant my sentence in a polite tone. I am well aware of what you said above, and I thank you for pointing out to others that there is a big difference between religious private schools and secular private schools. What is you say is true.

But, my original point is also true: when public schools improve, such improvement causes private schools to likewise improve.

A brief and true example: I know someone who was considering placing his three children in a very elite private school, not a religious one, BTW. I told him to also check the public school programs, and compare, because I knew the public schools in his area were excellent. He did that, and decided the public schools in his area had more to offer than the pricey private school, and he explained that to the private school. This person now has his three kids in an outstanding public school, and his wife volunteers -- get this: EIGHT HOURS per day at that public school, in the classrooms, and running the after-school program. Believe me, that person, and his wife, know exactly what is happening in that public school, and are the ones setting the agenda for their kids' education. Meanwhile, the private school which charges a fortune but is too cheap to compete with the public school, just lost business. IMO -- too bad. Maybe now they will compete.

[summer]

why direct all your comments towards these elite schools?

I think it started because that poster insisted there are just "hundreds" of "high-paying" private school teaching jobs out there somewhere. Well, you and I both know: forget the religious private schools if you are a teacher seeking a high paying teaching job. :)

[On the Road to Serfdom]

I think you are referring to me. Unfortunately for you I never said that. I will quote myself: “Why were there not hundreds of other better high paying private school jobs out there for you?”Please note specifically the word “not”. I read it again if necessary. I said the OPPOSITE of what you keep saying I said. It was a rhetorical question because I had already given you the answer- because demand for labor of private school teachers shifts left when public schools give away their services for free.

It is hard for me to understand how you do not believe that supply and demand determine wage levels. It is basic economics. If supply of labor shifts right wages go down. If demand for labor shifts left wages go down. If you don’t believe this we will have a hard time communicating further on this issue.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and try to address your “greed” issue. Lets start with and example. Suppose you go to the store and buy some soap for $2. You would have been willing to pay $4 for the soap but the price was only $2. Should you pay $2 or $4? I guessing you would pay $2. The reason is you are acting in you own self interest. Now, you could be generous to the Walmart sharholders and pay $4 but you would not be greedy if you did not. Another example suppose someone comes to your door and offers to mow your lawn in an hour for $10. In you mind you know you would pay $30 but you just say “yes”. Are you greedy for only paying $2 for the soap and a $10 per hour wage to the lawn mower? I would say no but id depends on the definition of greed.

What these examples hopefully demonstrate is the difference between greed and rational self interest. If you define "greed" so broadly that it includes all rational self interested behavior then you would be partially correct in you claim that all wages are determined by greed. But this is not necessarily a bad thing, and it does not negate supply and demand. If you have such a wide definition of greed then it is no longer a negative term. By that definiton of greed, greed is what keeps us supplied with food and shelter.

Now, in your past private school job you agreed to work for a certain wage. You consider them greedy for not giving you more. But were they really greedy? How is their behavior greedy? Why is it greedy to pay you what you are willing to work for? On the other hand they may have actually been “greedy”. You could have worked for the greediest jerks alive. They still would not be responsible for your wage being so low. What set your wage so low is there was NOT a higher paying alternative for you at that time. Your wage was low not just because that one school refused to pay you more. Your wage was low because no private school was willing to pay you more. And the reason NO private school was willing to pay you more is that they did not have to. The reason they did not have to was that there was a large supply and low demand for that kind of work.

[On the Road to Serfdom]

OOPS, "I read it again if necessary" should be "Read it again if necessary" :)

[summer]

Let me know how you feel after you teach in a private school. :)