School Districts Try to Save Pre-K

You were right the first time Summer :) Well, here in Kentucky the only Pre-K offered by schools is for children who are at risk. Not because of income, but because they have "failed" one or more portions of the screening test to a fairly large degree. My son failed the vision screen and did not qualify. And because he was tongue tied he was speech delayed, but not enough to qualify.

For children who have special needs, I lean toward degreed teachers. Can non-degreed teachers do the job? Certainly! But if it were my kid, I'd want someone with a broad range of knowledge and ideas.

I am biased here. In recent years I have only seen 1 school based program and two private programs. The school based one was OUTSTANDING! The lead teacher was degreed, the aides were not and they were all wonderful. The lead teacher was an excellent resource for me. The two private programs I was involved with were dismal. The first was highly academic. FORCEFULLY so!! The teachers had mixed education, an associates degree was a huge thing. But they poured over curriculum books. They got results, but there was too much pressure. The second was the total opposite, very disappointing curriculum. The teachers were unimaginative and I rarely saw a real lesson plan. The teachers were mostly younger women with no child development at all.

I think there are too many variables here to give an definitive opinion. So much depends upon the individual teacher's personality and common sense. All the education in the world won't make a fussy person flexible. And I'd rather deal with a mom or a teen who is enthusiastic about preschoolers than someone who is unglued by finger paint or stopped up toilets.

And, one to way to impact and increase the level of student achievement is: early childhood education via pre-K.

Has this even been proven? As I see it, children whose home life is so impoverished as to make preschool a necessity, are unlikely to suceed in school in general because of the lack of support.

The only reason preschool could make an impact (in the early years (1st and 2nd grade perhaps) is because we've made Kindergarten so high powered. Preschooled kids may start out with an advantage, but I'd bet it doesn't last. And I think the whole thing severely hampers little boys.

I didn't get a degree so that I could turn little children into Einsteins. I think preschool is fun. And I'd like to turn back the clock to a time where children went to preschool to get a little socialization and have some different experiences from what they got at home.

Diana, Thank you so much for your posts! I am so happy to hear from you on this! And, not because I think you agree with every point I have made, but because your detailed and candid comments in your replies #44 and #45 add MUCH to this discussion.

Truth Addict, Diana is a pre-school teacher. Maybe your wife would like to respond to Diana's thoughts.

PS Diana, There have been a lot of studies and research done on the impact of early childhood ed. Of course, one can always debate the value of such research, but, yes, I believe such research has consistently shown that kids who come to school 'ready to learn' do better over time.

However, I know that a child's 'readiness to learn' is something that need not be obtained via a "pre-school" setting -- it can be achieved at home, with parents' interaction with a child. Yet -- and here again is the problem with these low income areas -- not all parents are doing that with their children.

TA, re your post #19 - I would just add that there are many changes happening now in several districts, including Orange, that do involve sidestepping certain state requirements. I will link a thread and show you the posts, so you can see what I am referring to.

As for private verses public schools -- again, I would say: there are some outstanding public schools, and there are some outstanding private schools. There are also schools, public and private, that have their share of problems, with public schools often having a greater share, partly because they do not have the luxury of quickly eliminating or rejecting what I will call "problem" students, for lack of a better word here.

It is a whole lot easier to control the learning environment when your school is set up to only accept the cream of the crop. That is a fact. Nevertheless, there are some private school that WILL take kids thrown out of public schools, and then, the problems surrounding that expelled student are transferred to the private school. I know this happens. Consequently, an important question for any parent considering any private school is this one: Does your private school accept expelled students from the public school? Because some private schools DO take those kids, and some private schools do NOT.

Of course, there are a zillion other considerations as well, but, I am not willing to agree with blanket statements often reduced to: "All private schools are of higher quality" and "All public schools are trash." I have spent too much time in too many public schools. Some public schools are lousy; but some are great -- and better than private schools. And, some private schools are great. It depends on a variety of factors.

And, yes - I always agree that a parent is the child's first and most important teacher.

TA, Check out posts #36 - #40 on this thread.

These posts concern the recent change in Orange County, making it a "charter district." With this new designation -- as approved by the State -- Orange can now sidestep many current state requirements, in exchange for higher student achievement.

Also, BTW, I am familiar with CDA requirements, and in no way do these limited requirements compare to those of a certified FL teacher. In addition, current teaching requirements for a teacher with a Bachelors in no way compares to a teacher with a Masters degree, as a teacher with a Masters is someone far more likely to do research in the classroom, to find more effective ways to teach. A person with a Bachelors will usually not attempt to engage in any classroom research, and I think classroom research is very important. I realize others may disagree, but, that is my opinion.

Does this mean that a person without a CDA or a certification can not be a good teacher? No, not in my opinion, because there are always those people who are gifted in teaching and reaching kids, and no amount of education makes such people any more gifted. But that is a unique group of people.

BTW, I think one quality of homeschool parents that makes some homeschool parents such great teachers is the following quality: these parents are willing to learn, along with their children. In short: They are learners as well as teachers.

By contrast, there are some teachers, certified, who are NOT willing to learn. Seriously. Ask any person who has ever conducted a class or seminar for TEACHERs and they will tell you that teachers are often the WORST learners. I have seen, up front, and firsthand, unbelievable rudeness and disinterest by teachers at training sessions, to the point where I felt embarassed to say "I am a teacher." And, in my own classes in education, I am embarassed to this day to say how many teachers-in-training came right out and admitted they do not consider themselves readers -- and they hate to read. It was then, and continues to be, disturbing to me.

I agree with your sentiments. In fact, I would argue that it is not necessary for teachers all the way up to the high school level to have college degrees. It's not rocket science to teach kids to read and write and most parents with a basic high school education are more than capable of teaching their own (or other) children. Of course, the teacher unions (who are also against homeschooling) would have you believe that schoolteachers are especially gifted and belong to an "elite" group. Not to disparage schoolteachers, but that is just not the case. Anybody with a basic education and a little patience with children can be a good teacher from Kindergarten all the way up to at least the 8th grade level.

We seems to be getting off the subject into fun to discuss areas. The article we are looking at is about the public school trying to work around not having funding to keep a hold on 4/5 years olds.

The officials speaking in the article list that the drive to hold on to Pre-K is to meet the need of poor students and that the public system does a better job than private.

Both statement are incorrect. In central Florida they could not get enough children that are low income (not sure how?) so they started to let any child come in and pay tuition to fill the empty spots. This is a big stepping stone that has mostly gone unnoticed. I think public school Pre-K do a good job but are hindered by the vast thinking that Pre-K and K-5 should be only fun and teaching social skills.

In a long day in the classroom for a child there should be lots of fun and lots of running around to burn off energy. Any one in a room of 4 year olds will soon learn this if they did not before. No 4/5 year old should be made to sit for long periods of time and be drilled. But let's not throw the baby out with the dirty bath water. Having a captive audience of intelligent little minds, and to not give them skills they will need as they move up the school ladder is worse than boring them with drills. A little drill on phonics and letter, number recognition will go a long way.

We know there are good and poor teachers and schools in both public and private. We all hopefully want to strive to help children achieve and grow in the right direction. The question is how?

All the students in my preschool are there because the parents work and their child needs somewhere to go all day. I feel our role is to keep the children busy, happy and safe. As long as we have them, the academics that the parents demand are an added bonus. For the public school to want to meet this need to me is misguided. I again say they need to put money and resources to improving the grade the K-5 and up better.

School readiness is the new scapegoat of why children are getting to 3rd and 4th grade not reading. I do not understand how being in a totally non academic preschool should help K-5's learn to read. A child who knows nothing entering K-5 should be able to learn to read if proper curriculum and methods are used. Private schools have been doing this with less money for a long time. It's called accountability. When parents are paying out of pocket instead of paying by tax dollars results must be shown or the child is gone.

TA's Wife

current teaching requirements for a teacher with a Bachelors in no way compares to a teacher with a Masters degree, as a teacher with a Masters is someone far more likely to do research in the classroom, to find more effective ways to teach. A person with a Bachelors will usually not attempt to engage in any classroom research, and I think classroom research is very important.

I realize that research is necessary in determining which methods and curriculum work and which don't, but I am not comfortable with teachers using my children as guinea pigs in their classrooms for their research. Research should be the province of teaching colleges where the subjects (and/or their parents) are aware of the process and agree to participate. The fact is that we have an abundance of research, and know what works best, but educators frequently ignore this research because it conflicts with their agendas.

I would much prefer to have a competent non-degreed teacher using methods that work, than a masters degreed teacher using unproven and controversial methods to experiment on my children. I strongly disagree with your support of this "research" in the classroom.

TA, I realize that word "research" is a loaded word, but what you are thinking of is not really I am talking about here.

In the briefest terms, I mean: a teacher who is constantly assessing his or her own teaching methods, using a variety of strategies, and keeping track of the results in order to utilize the most effective methods and variety of strategies. All good teachers 'experiment' -- and, by that, I mean they are trying to find out what works best. There is a huge number of decisions a teacher must make, and some teachers, who are not as good, will make the same tired decisions over and over, not caring that such strategy is failing the students each and every time. To that teacher, students are getting "dumber." But a more astute teacher is considering a wider set of factors, and adjusting their teaching methods. Maybe the problem is the teacher is talking too much. Or there is not enough hands on activity for the students. Whatever. A teacher interested in 'research' approaches the challenges of teaching in a different way, willing to see many sides.

In addition, the very complaint you made in your reply to me about 'research' is, in fact, the same objection that I once made about a certain well-known educational company. Their reading product had NOT yet been tested in the schools -- and, without disclosing such, they were out in the schools, tyaking up my time away from my classroom, demanding extensive feedback from teachers because: the students in fact were being used as guinea pigs. This is wrong, IMO.

Anybody with a basic education and a little patience with children can be a good teacher from Kindergarten all the way up to at least the 8th grade level.

SamAdams76, you make valid points, but here is where I part ways with you, and Truth Addict, on what you said above: Multiply by 30 students, in your presence all at once, what you just said above. That is a new situation. That is a classroom situation. That requires an understanding of classroom management, working with small groups and individuals and a classroom, and a lot of OTHER knowledge.

So, yes -- one on one can be done. But as a public school or private school teacher, I am NOT teaching "one on one" for most of my day. That's a fact, and a fact not often taken into account by people who express the sentiment you did. Ask a homeschool parent to go in for a day and teach a class of 30 kids. Some homeschools parents would probably do OK for the day. But some will not, because there are new and overwhelming factors now in the picture, when you have 20 or 30 or whatever number of learners to deal with at once.

Re post 353 --It's called accountability. When parents are paying out of pocket instead of paying by tax dollars results must be shown or the child is gone.

Some (not me) would argue with you that accountability is thrown out the window in private schools, because NONE of these private schools in FL are regulated, nor required to participate in any way in state testing -- and, the state is actually holding private schools LESS accountable than the public schools.

I am not making this argument to you, because I see private schools as being different than public schools in many ways, and one significant way, is that as a private business, they are not required to disclose a great deal of information -- including whether their teachers have a criminal background, or have had a criminal background check, etc. Parents must proceed at their own risk in a private setting. In a public school, by contrast, in FL, a criminal background check and an FBI fingerprints check is done and required of every teacher, and can not be hidden prior to employment. Private schools have no legal requirement to do this. That's OK with me, because I recognize: they are different.

TA's wife, I found this thread fascinating, and I appreciate your input, and here are my conclusions:

(1) The fact that public schools are offering pre-K is having an impact on private school pre-K programs.

(2) The private school pre-K programs may, time, somehow change as a result. Perhaps they will raise tution and now pay their teachers more, or, maybe they will hire certified teachers, if they truly believe they are losing busines because of this factor.

(3) Paying private school teachers more is a GOOD thing, IMO, because private school teachers are WAYYYY underpaid.

(4) Competition between private and public continues to be a good thing, because there will ALWAYS be differences in the educational experiences offered.

(5) There is plenty of room in the educational arena for everyone -- private, public, private pre-K, public pre-K, single-sex public school, you name it. The 'big mix' continues to be a good thing. What works for one student may not work for another, so -- it is great that parents in FL continue to have more and more options.

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