An Absolutely Disgraceful, Disgusting American

Nealz Nuze ^ | 6-18-02 | Neal Boortz

[Illbay]

I authorize NO ONE to barter my freedom for some promise of security.

Sorry, but by virtue of your birth, you "bartered away" certain responsibilities to your elected government (uh, remember the "elected" part, okay?)

To me, this is silly, college freshman-level gibberish. The way the REAL world works is, the citizens of a nation at war batten down the hatches and get serious. The time for silly little Philosophy 101 word-games is past.

Time for the grown-ups to take charge.

There's more than a little coincidence that Mr. Rumsfeld has emerged as everyone's favorite 'splainer.

[Illbay]

...show me WHERE it does authorize.

The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.

-- U.S. Constitution, Article I. Section 9.

[Japedo]

The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. -- U.S. Constitution, Article I. Section 9.

OH Thanks so much, Now post the part where congress has SUSPENDED the write of Habeas corpus post 9/11

[Bandolier]

The Constitution has absulutely nothing to do with issuing rights, we are born with them.
The Constitution is our leash on government so we can ensure that it does not soil where it is not supposed to.

[Bandolier]

absulutely=absolutely
read twice, post once. read twice, post once. read twice, post once.

[Japedo]

AMEN! That is exactly what I said to Kevin!

I was asking him a question because he gave me the Mantra (on another thread) of how the government can issue rights. That post I posted to him again on this thread was to ask him again to answer. I 100% agree to what you say! Some times with debating with People who don't fully understand what "rights" are, its best to pose questions, If they can not answer they will ignore what you say and move on to attack someone else. Its their M.O. LOL!!!!

[Illbay]

Funny. I don't recall the part about "Congress." In fact, the precedent was set during the rebellion of the slaveholding states, 1861-65, whereby the PRESIDENT has that power.

Um, you DID say something about knowing the COnstitution? So far, you ain't doin' so well provin' it.

[Illbay]

And there's a VERY GOOD REASON why that leash is CONSTITUTIONALLY allowed to let slip from time to time--and "rebellion and invasion" are PERFECT times to do so.

During World War II the government was IT. EVERYONE in practical--and real--terms was a government employee.

I'm sure you'd've sh*t your pants during those years, but the vast majority of the citizenry knew it was the right thing to do, knew we were fighting for freedom against an implacable enemy.

People like you don't seem to really understand where THEORY and college freshman rhetoric leave off, and the REAL WORLD begins.

[dcwusmc]

You need to learn to read. The Constitution gives the CONGRESS the authority to suspend habeus corpus, NOT the Executive, despite what Abe did during the war of Northern Aggression. And the Constitution applies to everyone in the country. Even the illegals, no matter how you FEEL about it. That illegals and terrorists should get the ABBREVIATED version before they are removed is another story.

[Bandolier]

I think you are assuming we are at cross purposes when we probably are not. Believe me, I hold no sympathy for the terrorists or those who support them. I think my preferred method of retaliation might be much more vengeful than yours.
I just don't see a need to suspend the Constitution in order to defend the country.

[Japedo]

A) EX Parte Milligan addressed what LINCOLN did..

"The Constitution itself never yields to treaty or enactment; it neither changes with time, nor does it in theory bend to the force of circumstances." - Ex parte Milligan, 4 Wall. 2, 120

B)10th Amendment say's they DON'T have the power, (regardless of what you "FEEL")

C) Question? how does USSC rule on (Fill in blank) ...if they are denying him due process and etc?

D)The Writ Of Habeas Corpus Is general not specific...this means the power is to suspend everyone's Habeas Corpus not pick and choose....that is why the power is with congress.

E) The constitution doesn't allow them to buy up land for purposes other than needful buildings...but I guess because it's not there...they can buy up land. CARA.

The constitution doesn't allow them to make a law restricting the(1st Amendment)free exercise of religion etc...but I guess because it's not there...they can make a law. CFR.

The constitution doesn't allow them to tell a property owner what he/she can do with his property...but I guess because it's not there...they can force them to rent to HOMOSEXUALS.

The constitution doesn't allow them to make legislation about quotas...but I guess because it's not there...they can force businesses to hire quotas.

Depending on what philosophy You follow, YOU just enabled all the things that have been done and sanctioned them.

But I assume you're still a "Conservative" Right? :)

[Japedo]

P.S. I'm still on the edge of my seat waiting for This Post,

Now post the part where congress has SUSPENDED the write of Habeas corpus post 9/11

[Wonder Warthog]

"In 1942, we tried eight German saboteurs before a military tribunal. Two of the eight were American citizens. One was executed - the day after the verdict was read."

Sorry, but that was a period of declared war. The legalities are different. (And don't feed me any c*** about the "Joint Resolution" being the same as a declaration of war--it isn't).

"I don't see where that led us to "Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot"."

Give it time. Incrementalism is the name of the game. The Second World War removed some of our freedoms, this one will remove more. The end of that road (like the road to Hell, paved with good intentions) leads to murderous tyranny. The Founding Fathers knew it, even if you don't---THEY had lived through the same thing. All it takes is a president more unscrupulous and less cowardly than Bill Clinton.

Wait 'til they tell you you can't own firearms "for national security" because said firearms "might get in the hands of terrorists".

[Illbay]

You and I aren't disagreeing over the fact that Constitutional protections have been relaxed, but about WHEN and HOW and WHY.

Ironically, the REAL assault on the Constitution has taken place over years, and in areas not related to the current crisis (to your credit you mentioned a couple of good examples).

My real problem with this whole argument is, now that there's ACTUALLY a Constitutional basis for tightening our belts, and suspending some "freedoms" temporarily, NOW the "Conservatives" are all up in arms about it.

It's just too much of a coincidence, and I think it has more to do about discrediting Bush than about a real concern for the law.

[Illbay]

You put out a bunch of mumbo-jumbo that "proves" that "only Congress" can do this, and that's supposed to be something I'm obliged to refute?

Sorry, your say-so ain't good enough, so I'll rely instead on historical precedent. Some guy saying "Lincoln shouldn't have done that" is a lot different from it's being upheld by the High Court time after time during the rebellion.

[Illbay]

Sorry, but that was a period of declared war. The legalities are different.

NO, they're not. As I mentioned earlier, anyone who doesn't believe we're at war is just a d&mn fool, and needs to go back and revisit the archives re Beirut, WTC '93, the African embassies, the U.S.S. Cole, etc., because somehow you're missing something.

Yes, a "joint resolution" is a declaration of war. And BTW, Article I. Section 9. doesn't say a bloomin' thing about "declared war."

Go and reread.

[Japedo]

You put out a bunch of mumbo-jumbo that "proves" that "only Congress" can do this, and that's supposed to be something I'm obliged to refute?

LOL! what???????? Excuse me? You OWN POSTING OF "Article I" Goes as Follows...

To: nonsporting

...show me WHERE it does authorize.

The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it. -- U.S. Constitution, Article I. Section 9.

122 posted on 6/18/02 6:57 PM Eastern by Illbay

beings though you posted Article 1 Section 9 I also assume that you know that Article 1 PERTAINS TO THE LEGISLATIVE BRANCH??? Because Had you bothered reading the CONSTITUTION instead of pretending or assuming to know what it means, In Article 1 Section 1 You would have read this Section 1.

All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives.

I will take your Colorful words of "mumbo-jumbo" as an accident, THIS TIME! LOL

[jwalsh07]

That was clinton era foolishness. The testimony should have been kept secret, as has been done often in the past. The Constitution does not state that the evidence against you must be made public domain, merely that you have the right to be faced with it, at trial, with counsel. The Constitution really is not as much of a hindrance as many seem to think.

Think again Bandolier. You see, you are willing to suspend some Constitutional Rights to murdering terrorists, you just don't know it yet.

Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense

[jwalsh07]

Why do you ever assume I'm a "GUY", you profiled me wrong.. Oops....

It doesn't matter whether you are a guy, a gal or one of those half and half things that runs around in San Francisco, you're wrong.

[Japedo]

Yes, a "joint resolution" is a declaration of war. And BTW, Article I. Section 9. doesn't say a bloomin' thing about "declared war."

LOL! Illbay, Please Please I beg of you stop you're cracking me up, that's Because Its in Article 1 Section 8 (Article one still being under the Legislative branch! LOL) As posted here Please Note that all BOLD is MY emphasis

Section 8.

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States; To establish Post Offices and post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of Particular States, and the Acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards and other needful Buildings;--And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.