Posted on 04/01/2002 8:50:31 PM PST by fortheDeclaration
As Ward Smythe said, the article is really aimed specifically at the Holiness movement and its obsession with outward actions as indications of spirituality. Dr. Reasoner most certainly is not advocating any surrender to liberalism, but simply trying to call the Holiness movement back to its roots in Methodism's grand call to "spread Scriptural holiness throughout the land." Hard to do that when you're so stuck on outward signs like not smoking or women not cutting their hair and wearing dresses.
TG
I would simply say that there is more depth in the Holiness movement than you might realize.
I think Independent, Fundamentalist, Bible Believing, Baptists have the same problem!
But I disagree with the author when he says While they continue to subdivide and separate from each other they are making no impact upon American society. We just have to look at The Salvation Army alone to see the error in that statement. In the first few weeks at Ground Zero, the Chaplain there, the one that prayed with the firefighters as bodies were removed, was a Salvation Army officer. I am personally acquainted with the former General of the Army. He relayed a story of one Sally worker at Ground Zero. She was standing there, taking a break. A rescue worker came up to her and said, "I've never believed in God. I feel like I need to pray, but I don't know how. Do you know how to pray?" The SA worker said, "yes I do and prayed with the worker and shared the gospel."
Amen!
There are many other examples. Yes, there's been a lot of hurt in the name of "holiness." But not from those who grasp the real message of the movement.
I think that is the essential message of the article, a return to what the original movement stood for. Now, what you noted above is fine, but Christians never do good just for the sake of doing good, but do good in order to show their Christanity.
These groups (i.e.Salvation Army) have gotten very secular. In order to do more good they have compromised the Gospel lest they offend anyone!
Whatever we do, must be in the name of Christ
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.(Rom.1:16)
The Apostles dealt with it quite well in providing the example of the Bereans. The exhorted their flocks to know the word and keep only to the Gospel they taught - warning to turn away from such as would preach any other Gospel. In short, if it ain't in scripture, ignore them. Indeed:
Titus 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
[2] In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
[3] But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
[4] To Titus, mine own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
[5] For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
[6] If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
[7] For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
[8] But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate;
[9] Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
[10] For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
[11] Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
[12] One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
[13] This witness is true. Wherefore * * rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
[14] Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. (I would interject "not giving heed to ANY fables")
[15] Unto the pure all things are pure *: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
[16] They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
Titus 2:1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
[2] That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
[3] The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
[4] That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
[5] To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
[6] Young men likewise exhort to be sober minded.
[7] In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,
[8] Sound speech, that cannot be condemned; that he that is of the contrary part may be ashamed, having no evil thing to say of you.
[9] Exhort servants to be obedient unto their own masters, and to please them well in all things; not answering again;
[10] Not purloining, but shewing all good fidelity; that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Saviour in all things.
[11] For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
[12] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly *, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
[13] Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
[14] Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
[15] These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.
This is but one of several places that an apostle broached the subject. If someone can't back up what they say 100% in scripture, give no heed to their words. Correct them and rebuke them as need be. We don't play games with the souls of men. Those who speak one word contrary to scripture are casting lots for the souls of men. Jesus stayed not his hand at the temple as the merchants made merchandise of the souls of men. Who then are we to allow any such thing?!
I have seen no compromise in the dozens of Salvationists I know personally, and the hundreds I know from a distance.
The antiquities of the Jews - Flavius Josephus 18.1
I think this sums up pretty well the many things that are said with regard to the Pharisees in the NT. Matthew 16 Shows Christ Warning of the way both of the Pharisees and the Saducees. Josephus Notes that the Saducees have different beliefs and ways of handling things; but, when raised to a position of importance, proclaimed the doctrine of the Pharisees because the people would not long stand their own doctrines. Would that they had not withstood either!
That may be the case, as I am an outsider looking in. But, as an outsider looking in, the only Holiness movement group that is in any way appealing to me is the Salvation Army.
That said, I'm still praying for a revival in mainstream Methodism....Oh, how we need people like Lorenzo Dow, Daniel Steele, Peter Cartwright, Joshua Thomas and Bishop Asbury again!
TG
I've checked them out, as well as the Confessing Movement within the UMC. I'm glad that they're fighting against liberalism and, especially in the Confessing Movement's case, trying to get the Book of Discipline down as a binding confession for the UMC as a whole.
The problem is, the UMC has really lost its theological compass. And that's what I'm praying gets revived, and what would set the UMC back on fire: the theology of Asbury, Dow, Cartwright, Steele, Wesley, Watson (Richard, mind you--not G.D.), Adam Clarke, etc.
TG
Right. And Pigs Fly. No repentance needed, no changing ones ways, no praying, no church going, no singing, no nothing. Just keep on doing whatever is your little heart desires. Why change for God? Why do what HE wants you to do? Why do what he commands? After all..its only faith right? Just Believe.
Even the fallen angels believe, and "tremble with fear". But hey, who cares when we can just beeeeelieve, right?
Retch!! Its this faith only crapola that is staining the church. When people don't change, and DO WHAT GOD HAS COMMANDED, should they be surprised when he doesn't involve Himself in their life?
Sola fide, but also viva fide. Faith only, but living faith. Faith that shows itself in works of love (see James 2:14-26).
Although...you do hit upon an interesting point with the charge about "no repentance." The Bible's consistent commands are "Repent and believe." I'd say that if there's no repentance, then there's probably not any true faith either. It also brings up a Calvinism-Arminianism issue about which comes first, but I'm not going to go into that....
Change comes after one is born again, not in order to become born again (2Cor.5:17, Tit.3:5)
It is too bad that you are not in charge of salvation, I am sure it would be a lot tougher. Scripture is very clear, however,
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, Not of works lest any man should boast (Eph.2:8-9)
There may well meaning people still working in the organization, but the organization ceased to be regarded as being 'Christian' long ago. Not unlike the YMCA. The Salvation army today would be regarded like the Red Cross by most people. At least that has been my impression.
Amen! Espically since they had their Messiah to show them the truth. (Jn.14)
They were so careful to avoid breaking God's commandments that they built a fence around them.
Ironically, this is precisely what Jesus does in Matthew 5. He teaches that not only must you avoid adultery, but merely looking with lust is committing adultery in one's heart. Similarly he teaches that anger is committing murder in one's heart. "Building a fence around the Torah" means avoiding situations in which one is likely to be tempted to sin. This idea is preserved in the Christian notion of "avoiding the near occasion of sin".
They added 248 commandments and 365 prohibitions to insure they did not even approach the original ten.
The 613 mitzvot (commandments) were not "added" by the Pharisees; rather, they are all found in the Torah. Judaism reads the Torah such that anytime God says to do something (or not to do something), that thing is considered a commandment. You would agree that there are many times outside of the 10 commandments that God commands something? For example, the first commandment found in scripture is to "be fruitful and multiply". Another commandment is the observance of Yom Kippur. A significant portion of these commandments have to do with the priesthood and the temple service, and thus are inapplicable when there is not a temple in Jerusalem. Others only apply within Eretz Israel, or under other particular circumstances. For the typical Jew living in the diaspora, probably only a few dozen of these 613 commandments would apply to him.
The Pharisees put the emphasis on externals. They wore special clothing to attract attention to themselves.
This is that kind of statement that bothers me. Does he really mean to suggest that all Pharisees were like this?
Scripture emphasizes the need of Love in everything the Christian does (1Cor.13) and Faith (Rom.14:23). The mature Christian must always be asking if what he is doing has both those elements. 'Pharisees' do neither.
you shall love your neighbor as yourself (Leviticus 19:18)
you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (Deuteronomy 6:5)
For an observant Jew, love of God and neighbor are considered commandments.
It is too bad that you are not in charge of salvation, I am sure it would be a lot tougher. Scripture is very clear, however, For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, Not of works lest any man should boast (Eph.2:8-9)
Interesting. Do you think you can be 'saved' without repenting?
if my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin (2 Chronicles 7:14)
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