Regarding the Sins of Catholics, and a Paradigm Shift in Catholic Apologetics

Dr. Brian Kopp

[Proud2BAmerican]

Terror works with children. I don't use it on adults.

Although I can understand your pragmatic, jaded, "seen-it-all-done-it-all" attitude towards this topic, I couldn't help but be reminded of a biblical passage at your mention of the word "terror" -- the words of St. Paul, where he talks about working out his salvation in "fear and trembling."

If you wont' answer my other question, at least tell me if you dispute these facts:

Fact 1: Cohabitating before marriage is a mortal sin.

Fact 2: A single mortal sin, unrepented, will damn someone to hell for all of eternity.

[Iowegian]

All I've seen is personal opinion and twisting of belief to justify words of blasphemy and insult against the mother of Jesus Christ.

I'm gonna call you on this one. What was blasphemous about it? Sex between a married couple is a gift of God and an ordained union which God said he commands. Your teaching seems to be the one which calls Mary into question, not mine. If you can't comprehend this, have somebody explain it to you, I've already tried.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Thanks for the heads up. I guess when individuals have already made up their minds about something no amount of Scriptural validation is going to open a closed mind.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

I don't terrorize children. I'm sorry if your mother did. There are plenty of ways to teach children appropriate behavior without resorting to terrorizing them.

[sinkspur]

So you do think it's a good idea to withold the truth of the gravity of their situations?

People who are cheating on their spouses, or embezzling money, or beating their wives know they're doing wrong. I try to get them to see what they're doing to themselves RIGHT NOW, as human beings.

That usually works.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

1)You still have not asked me a specific question about Mary. You are still telling me what I believe.

2)I believe we both comprehend what's going on here and it has nothing to do with having an open minded discussion. If in the future you wish to have one, I'd be happy to oblige.

[sinkspur]

If you wont' answer my other question, at least tell me if you dispute these facts:

Fact 1: Cohabitating before marriage is a mortal sin.

Yes.

Fact 2: A single mortal sin, unrepented, will damn someone to hell for all of eternity.

Yes.

But when I talk to engaged couples, I try what works.

Threatening with hell just doesn't work for me.

Maybe it does with you.

[Iowegian]

I believe we both comprehend what's going on here and it has nothing to do with having an open minded discussion.

I agree, your mind is not open to anything other than the party line, so it is not a discussion.

[Proud2BAmerican]

I meant not telling the truth to couples who were co-habitating (a mortal sin)? Do you think it's a good idea that they not be aware that it's a mortal sin, and that they will go to hell if they don't repent and turn away from it? Or do you think it better to withold this truth from them, and give the impression that the Catholic Church condones such behavior?

[Iowegian]

You still have not asked me a specific question about Mary.

I asked what was blasphemous about my post and you haven't answered it. What, no facts here either?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

With all due respect, where did I hurl insults?

BigMack

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

You have not asked me a specific question about Mary. You are consistently changing the focus and ridiculing, which is a common fundamentalist debating tactic. Now, do you have a specific question or are we going to continue to play games?

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Since this is obviously pointless, I'll just say I'll pray for both of you to awaken to the Light of Christ and we'll just leave it at that. I have better things to do than play games with the two of you.

[Iowegian]

Now, do you have a specific question or are we going to continue to play games?

I'm not playing games you are avoiding questions. You said I posted blasphemy and told you what you believe, so what did I say you believed that you don't believe? And what was blasphemous?

[Proud2BAmerican]

But when I talk to engaged couples, I try what works.

Can you elaborate on what you mean by it "working"? By that, I mean, what constitutes the experience being a success: the couple proceeding with the formal, official Catholic marriage? Is that the determination of success? (Or conversely, a couple who, after going through the preparation process, determine that they are ill-suited for marriage, and so break up -- would that be considered a success?)

[Iowegian]

When you pray, remember there is only one mediator between man and God, Jesus. No saints, no priests, no Mary.

[sinkspur]

I meant not telling the truth to couples who were co-habitating (a mortal sin)? Do you think it's a good idea that they not be aware that it's a mortal sin, and that they will go to hell if they don't repent and turn away from it? Or do you think it better to withold this truth from them, and give the impression that the Catholic Church condones such behavior?

I tell them that the Church doesn't condone living together; that it violates the sacredness of the sexual relationship, which is proper only in marriage. I also tell them, as I said before, that sex may be all there is to their relationship and it would be a shock to realize that after they took marriage vows.

I suggest that you volunteer to work with engaged couples in your parish, then you can talk about hell in a "loving, caring way" to your heart's content.

I use what works. Threatening people with hell doesn't work, for me.

[sinkspur]

Can you elaborate on what you mean by it "working"? By that, I mean, what constitutes the experience being a success: the couple proceeding with the formal, official Catholic marriage? Is that the determination of success? (Or conversely, a couple who, after going through the preparation process, determine that they are ill-suited for marriage, and so break up -- would that be considered a success?)

What "works" is what I can have a conversation about with the couple.

Talk about hell usually ends the discussion.

In most cases, the couple proceed with the marriage; in a few, they decide, after much discussion, primarily using the results from the questionnaires they fill out, to break up.

[Proud2BAmerican]

I use what works. Threatening people with hell doesn't work, for me.

Threatening people with hell..."slamming" people with mortal sin. Reading the way you re-phrase the teachings of Catholicism makes it seem as though you believe this particular truth of Catholicism as something awful, outdated, out-moded, Medieval and cruel?

It's truth, right? And, judging from the possible consequences, it's a pretty essential truth, right? But somewhere between an essential truth and pre-marital counseling, it suddenly becomes something that would be mean, judgmental, insensitive and therefore it's inadvisable to let people know that they are toeing the line of Hell, lest they think that the Catholic Church isn't with it.

Have you ever tried explaining the risks and consequences of their actions, according to Catholicism? Or has your method worked 100 percent of the time from the very first time you ever performed this service, and so you've never had the need or curiousity to try educating these people on the faith that they're marrying within? Do you care, one way or the other, whether or not they know it's a mortal sin? Do you care, one way or the other, whether or not they stop this mortal sin? Do you think they are in danger of hell? Or do you think that, technically, yes it's the official teaching of the Catholic Church that they are committing mortal sin, but really, in God's eyes, it's not that big of a deal, and they just don't know any better, and you are sure that it has no affect on their salvation, and their actions are doing zero harm to the state of their souls and the measure of grace within them?

[Proud2BAmerican]

No saints, no priests, no Mary.

But there are many intercessors, like St. Paul, who said that he intercedes with his prayers. And like friends who pray for you, who intercede on your behalf, in imitation of St. Paul.