Posted on 05/04/2002 4:43:38 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Psa 106:4 Remember me, O LORD, with the favour [that thou bearest unto] thy people: O visit me with thy salvation;
Does your question imply that (your) God isn't strong enough to be omnipotent in a universe that contains free wills other than His own?
My God encourages independent free will and thought and still is in total control of His creation.
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. - Romans 3:10-18
Paul is quoting from the Septugaint Psalms here. I don't have a version to see what context this Psalm was written in, but it's clear from Pauls use of it that he's using it to show that man is a sinful creature, which I don't think any Christian would deny. He's describing the general state of mankind, not establishing that we are incapable of submitting our will to God.
Some things never change:
And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. - Genesis 6:5 (In other words, "all evil, all the time".)
Face it, we have already rejected God, we already have His judgment upon us, and we all deserve death and hell. It is only by His grace that He chooses to save any of us. Salvation is of the LORD - Jonah 2:9b
Agreed.
No. But there's a difference between being called and being chosen. Many are called, but few are chosen. Those chosen are the ones who heed the calling.
Many are called, but a few choose.
It's telling to notice exactly for whom Jesus had his harshest words. He was very gentle with the humble / teachable sinners, but he absolutely slammed the legalistic, politically correct, "religious zealot" _sinners_ who presumed to think that they knew better than he did what love is, and how people "should behave" if they want to be "pleasing to God".
If you notice --- Jesus' words and behavior never could measure up to their standards. :D
Exd 10:2 And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I [am] the LORD. :
He is the one that all glory goes to Shadow...Never to man
He made us He knows us, He formed us and He knows exactly how we are made...He made us in a way that we will make the choices we make..there is nothing we can do that will surprise or amaze God
LOL!!!!
Sorry Doug that makes no sense..God says I chose you BECAUSE you choose me...Just who is God in all of this...sounds alot like "ye shall be as gods " to me
Once again: Huh?
(BTW, Paul is quoting from Psalm 14, which is an indictment of sinners, present company included. Whether you read from the Septuagint or the Masoretic text, this fact is clear.)
What is there that resides within your sinful flesh that would ever want to submit to God? The whole point of Romans 1-3 is the fact that all of us stand guilty before God, and that we are totally undone in our sin. If you continue reading in Romans you discover that we are saved only because of the direct intervention of God into our pathetic sinful lives. Paul also shows us the ongoing battle between the work of the Spirit and the flesh in which we still reside in chapter seven. Even after regeneration we still have this struggle due to the wickedness of our flesh.
Let me ask you this: Why are you so determined that it is you who has submitted yourself to God? Why not concede that this is the result of the working of His Holy Spirit within you, and that this would have never taken place without the application of His grace?
Agreed. I never claimed otherwise. That does not, however, negate our totally free will in our choice. He allows you to do and think and decide whatever you want to. That includes sinners seeking out God and the Gospel.
Jesus did not come for the elect--He came to earth for the sinners. He said so Himself. Yet He never forced anyone to make the choice for Him. Reference the rich young ruler. He knew the ruler would not make the correct choice--yet he never once screamed at him, called him satanic, or otherwise abused him. Was Jesus civil? Yes, he was. Was Jesus civil to sinners he knew would not make the correct choice? Yes, he was. Was he civil when rebuking teachers of the word when they were knowingly wrong? No, he wasn't.
Be careful how you rebuke fellow believers.
Well, just remember:
One Riot; one Ranger!
One Calvinist; one Riot!
I have talked with the leader of my Bible study and I may be having a lot to say tonight when we meet. I don't expect what I say to be exactly well received given that last week when somebody said they "felt" unworthy, the conversation end up being about improving self-esteem enough to go to church and be baptised. To be quite honest, people need to hear that they really are unworthy and there is no such "work" of self-esteeem to be done before approaching the Lord. Fall on your face, admit your worthlessness and cry out for mercy.
Me neither. And look at who some of his greatest admirers are (from the article I excerpted, and linked to, in my previous post):
Another excerpt:
"Jerry Falwell calls him "one of my heroes and a hero to many evangelicals, including Billy Graham." I recall wandering through the Billy Graham Center some years ago, observing the place of honor given to Finney in the evangelical tradition, reinforced by the first class in theology I had at a Christian college, where Finney's work was required reading. The New York revivalist was the oft-quoted and celebrated champion of the Christian singer Keith Green and the Youth With A Mission organization. Finney is particularly esteemed among the leaders of the Christian Right and the Christian Left, by both Jerry Falwell and Jim Wallis (Sojourners' magazine), and his imprint can be seen in movements that appear to be diverse, but in reality are merely heirs to Finney's legacy. From the Vineyard movement and the church growth movement to the political and social crusades, televangelism, and the Promise-Keepers movement, as a former Wheaton College president rather glowingly cheered, "Finney lives on!"
That is because Finney's moralistic impulse envisioned a church that was in large measure an agency of personal and social reform rather than the institution in which the means of grace, Word and Sacrament, are made available to believers who then take the Gospel to the world. In the nineteenth century, the evangelical movement became increasingly identified with political causes--from abolition of slavery and child labor legislation to women's rights and the prohibition of alcohol. At the turn of the century, with an influx of Roman Catholic immigrants already making many American Protestants a bit uneasy, secularism began to pry the fingers of the Protestant establishment from the institutions (colleges, hospitals, charitable organizations) they had created and sustained. In a desparate effort at regaining this institutional power and the glory of "Christian America" (a vision that is always powerful in the imagination, but, after the disintegration of Puritan New England, elusive), the turn-of-the-century Protestant establishment launched moral campaigns to "Americanize" immigrants, enforce moral instruction and "character education." Evangelists pitched their American gospel in terms of its practical usefulness to the individual and the nation.
That is why Finney is so popular. He is the tallest marker in the shift from Reformation orthodoxy, evident in the Great Awakening (under Edwards and Whitefield)to Arminian (indeed, even Pelagian) revivalism, evident from the Second Great Awakening to the present. To demonstrate the debt of modern evangelicalism to Finney, we must first notice his theological departures. From these departures, Finney became the father of the antecedents to some of today's greatest challenges within the evangelical churches themselves; namely, the church growth movement, pentecostalism and political revivalism."
Yep! :D
Rnmomof7 states: Was Jesus "civil" I don't think so
Matchett, Id have to agree with you. I dont have a Bible at hand. Did he cast the demons into the pigs with civility?
LOL!!!!
Then, by your own admission, we have no basis for being civil to those who proclaim as gospel something that is not the Gospel.
There are plenty of false teachers here, and they need solid rebuke. Those who would minimize the devastation of the fall of man ("Dead? Heck no, you are just a little bit ill"), and maximize the authority of man ("God votes for you, the devil votes against you, and you cast the deciding vote") need stern rebuke.
That is the difference.
And because I am a "non-conformist", I don't do it. :D
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