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How the Soviets Won in Afghanistan; And how the U.S. will win
Politicalusa.com ^ | 9/17/2001 | Dr. Jack Wheeler

Posted on 09/17/2001 10:21:57 AM PDT by JoeGOP

Won? Huh? The Soviets lost in Afghanistan, didn't they? They were humiliated and defeated in the Afghan quagmire that the US would helplessly sink into if it invaded now, right?

Nope - the Soviets won in Afghanistan. The famed Mujahaddin had slunk back to the refugee camps in Pakistan, demoralized, dejected, and defeated. I was there, I saw it. It was August, 1986, and the Mujhaddin had given up. The Soviets had won.

But then, the Stinger missiles that Ronald Reagan had promised them finally arrived. On September 26, 1986, the first three Stingers were fired by the Muj and three Soviet aircraft were shot down out of the sky. The refugee camps erupted, the Muj poured back into Afghanistan aflame with renewed passion. Over the next 28 months, Stingers would shoot down hundreds of Soviet Hind helicopter gunships and MiG fighter jets. The skies cleared, the Muj fought with fury, and on February 15, 1989, the Soviets retreated back to the Soviet Union.

Ronald Reagan's Stinger missiles defeated the Soviets in Afghanistan, not the vaunted Mujahaddin. Before the Stingers, the Soviets had won. After the Stingers, they lost. So the question for the US military, as it contemplates sending ground forces into the "Afghan quagmire," is: what tactics did the Soviets use to demoralize and defeat the Afghan guerrillas as of August 1986? MORE


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1 posted on 09/17/2001 10:21:58 AM PDT by JoeGOP
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To: JoeGOP
Darn right they lost, to the tune of 100k men. That the US supported the Afghanis only gives proof to the fact that the fight against Communism gave rise to strange bedfellows.
2 posted on 09/17/2001 10:28:25 AM PDT by Catie
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To: JoeGOP
hrms - so the real question is: "how many stingers are left in afghanistan?"
3 posted on 09/17/2001 10:28:56 AM PDT by delapaz
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To: delapaz
"how many stingers are left in afghanistan?"

Exactly!!

4 posted on 09/17/2001 10:35:39 AM PDT by KayEyeDoubleDee
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To: JoeGOP
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains, Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,
Go, go, go like a soldier,

--Rudyard Kipling
5 posted on 09/17/2001 10:37:25 AM PDT by meandog
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To: JoeGOP
I agree with his assessment. Our infantry troops in Vietnam were cut to shreds in the jungle by fast-moving, hit-and-run enemy raids. You can't fight a guerilla war with infantry tactics. First things first: We need several weeks of intensive bombing of the areas known to be occupied by bin Laden's scum to loosen them up and disrupt their communications and supply lines. Then, send in special forces in small teams of 4 to 8 people, dispersed around the country. Hit-and-run. Beat the crap out of them. Demoralize them. Send them packing. As long as they don't have a backer (such as China, North Korea, etc) to send them weapons -- such as the North Vietnamese had in China -- they will be forced to retreat.
6 posted on 09/17/2001 10:39:19 AM PDT by Bush2000
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To: Bush2000
Somepeople are calling for "limited, measured, graduated, responses", such as what we did in Vietnam.
7 posted on 09/17/2001 10:42:12 AM PDT by waterstraat
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: delapaz
This is pretty scary: http://www.vantage-security.com/artsting.htm
9 posted on 09/17/2001 10:43:58 AM PDT by Bush2000
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To: waterstraat
We MUST keep in mind that most of the Afgan people hate the Taliban too. If we go in befriend and ally with the Afgans that want the Taliban out as much as we do, we will have made a very powerful and long lasting friend. Otherwise we will make a very powerful and long lasting enemy.
10 posted on 09/17/2001 10:47:22 AM PDT by clamper1797
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To: delapaz
"how many stingers are left in afghanistan?"

Actually, IIRC, without the proper maintence (performed by trained techs), the missles would have fallen into disrepair long ago.

Perhaps someone more familiar with the old Stingers can enlighten us.

11 posted on 09/17/2001 10:47:54 AM PDT by TomB
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To: Bush2000
I'm not happy about the prospect of seeing American boys sent home in body bags or maimed for life, physically and/or mentally.

President Bush's popularity rating is fleeting at best. He needs to use the bully pulpit when the time is right to put the blame squarely where it belongs.

At this time, it's the total lack of security at domestic airports, and the unpreparedness of the Pentagon in needing jets from Norfolk, VA, instead of "across the street" at Andrews AFB.

Heads should roll.

12 posted on 09/17/2001 10:48:58 AM PDT by DCPatriot
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To: JoeGOP
Most of the Russian regular army forces in Afghanistan were poorly trained and unmotivated draftees and they performed like poorly trained and unmotivated draftees. I don't expect US and allied forces to have those deficiencies.
13 posted on 09/17/2001 10:49:16 AM PDT by yoswif
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To: JoeGOP
You have to stop reading Pravda on the Potomac. I guess the Compost didn't get word from the Information Minister of the [former] Soviet Union that they got their collectivist butts kicked in Afghanistan.
14 posted on 09/17/2001 10:50:05 AM PDT by VoodooEconomist
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To: JoeGOP
Ronald Reagan's Stinger missiles defeated the Soviets in Afghanistan, not the vaunted Mujahaddin.That was definitely a huge reason. There were other things Reagan "did" vis-a-vis classified security directives, that helped undermine the Soviet Effort on all fronts (including at home). SOURCE: http://www.conservativebeacon.com/reagan/cold_war_victory.html

Almost nobody predicted the demise of the Soviet Union ... certainly none of the experts. In fact, I only recall one voice sounding the theme of the imminent demise of communism. But he was mostly ignored because he was just a "B movie actor," not especially smart, and quite possibly senile.

Ronald Reagan vs. "The Experts"

1980 - Reagan - "The Soviets can't compete with us. I'll get the Soviets to the negotiating table." (June 1980)

1981 - Reagan - "The years ahead will be great ones for our country, for the cause of freedom and for the spread of civilization. The West won't contain Communism, it will transcend Communism. We will not bother to denounce it, we'll dismiss it as a sad, bizarre chapter in human history whose last pages are even now being written." (Ronald Reagan, Commencement Address at University of Notre Dame, May 1981)

1981 - Expert - "It is a vulgar mistake to think that most people in Eastern Europe are miserable." (Paul Samuelson, Professor of Economics, MIT, Nobel Laureate, Economics, 1981)

1982 - Expert - "The Soviet Union is not now, nor will it be during the next decade, in the throes of a true systematic crisis, for it boasts enormous unused reserves of political and social stability that suffice to endure the deepest difficulties." (Seweryn Bialer, Professor of Political Science, Columbia University, Foreign Affairs Magazine, 1982/3)

1982 - Expert - "I found more goods in the shops, more food in the markets, more cars on the street ... those in the United States who think the Soviet Union is on the verge of economic and social collapse, ready with one small push to go over the brink are wishful thinkers who are only kidding themselves." (Arthur Schlesinger, Jr., 1982)

NOTE: This is an example of liberal rationality going out the window as a result of its fascination with the mechanistic Communist economy. If Schlesinger had stopped to consider the pattern of propaganda eminating from the Communist regime (a fact continually pointed out by conservatives), he would have realized that he was merely observing a scripted show to propagandize the West. And this gullible liberal/soviet-romantic (an alleged enlightened intellectual) fell for it hook, line, and sinker.

1982 - Reagan - "In an ironic sense, Karl Marx was right. We are witnessing today a great revolutionary crisis - a crisis where the demands of the economic order are colliding directly with those of the political order. But the crisis is happening not in the free, non-Marxist West, but in the home of Marxism-Leninism, the Soviet Union. What we see here is a political structure that no longer corresponds to its economic base, a society where productive forces are hampered by political ones. It is the Soviet Union that runs against the tide of history by denying freedom and human dignity to its citizens. A march of freedom and democracy will leave Marxism-Leninism on the ash-heap of history." (Ronald Reagan, Address to the British Parliament, June 1982)

1983 - Expert - "All evidence indicates that the Reagan administration has abandoned both containment and detonate for a very different objective: destroying the Soviet Union as a world power and possibly even its Communist system. [This is a] potentially fatal form of Sovietphobia ... a pathological rather than a healthy response to the Soviet Union." (Stephen Cohen, Princeton University Sovietologist, 1983)

1983 - Reagan - "Let us pray for the salvation of all those who live in the totalitarian darkness - pray that they will discover the joy of knowing God. But until they do, let us be aware that while they [Soviet rulers] preach the supremacy of the state, declare its omnipotence over individual man, and predict its eventual domination of all peoples on the earth, they are the focus of evil in the modern world.... I urge you to beware the temptation ... to ignore the facts of history and the aggressive impulses of any evil empire, to simply call the arms race a giant misunderstanding and thereby remove yourself from the struggle between right and wrong, good and evil." - (Ronald Reagan, Speech to the National Association of Evangelicals, March 8, 1983)

1984 - Expert - "That the Soviet system has made great material progress in recent years is evident both from the statistics and from the general urban scene...One sees it in the appearance of well-being of the people on the streets...and the general aspect of restaurants, theaters, and shops... Partly, the Russian system succeeds because, in contrast with the Western industrial economies, it makes full use of its manpower." (John Kenneth Galbraith, Professor of Economics, Harvard University, 1984)

1984 - Expert - "On the economic front, for the first time in its history the Soviet leadership was able to pursue successfully a policy of guns and butter as well as growth ... The Soviet citizen-worker, peasant, and professional - has become accustomed in the Brezhnev period to an uninterrupted upward trend in his well-being ..." (John Kenneth Galbraith, Professor of Economics, Harvard University, New Yorker Magaine, 1984)

1985 - Expert - "What counts is results, and there can be no doubt that the Soviet planning system has been a powerful engine for economic growth...The Soviet model has surely demonstrated that a command economy is capable of mobilizing resources for rapid growth." (Paul Samuelson, MIT, Nobel laureate in economics, 1985)

1985 - Expert - "It's clear that the ideologies of Communism, socialism and capitalism are all in trouble." (James Reston, New York Times, 1985)

1987 - Reagan - "In the Communist world, we see failure, technological backwardness, declining standards... Even today, the Soviet Union cannot feed itself. The inescapable conclusion is that freedom is the victor. General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!" (Ronald Reagan, Speech at the Brandenburg Gate, 1987)

1989 - Expert - "Can economic command significantly compress and accelerate the growth process? The remarkable performance of the Soviet Union suggests that it can. In 1920 Russia was but a minor figure in the economic councils of the world. Today it is a country whose economic achievements bear comparison with those of the United States." (Lester Thurow, Professor of Economics, MIT, The Economic Problem, 1989)

1989 - The Berlin Wall came tumbling down just as Reagan said.

1991 - The Soviet Union and Communism collapsed and were placed on the ash heap of history just as Reagan predicted.

1991 - "We are very happy that the coup failed because we have now really destroyed the communist empire, the Soviet state, and of course, as Ronald Reagan said, it was indeed an evil empire and we are glad that it is gone from the earth." —Andrei Kozyrev, Yeltsin Foreign Minister

Post-1991 - "Ladies and gentlemen, if it had not been for the Reagan defense buildup, if the United States had not demonstrated that it is willing not only to stand up for freedom but to devote considerable sums of money to defending it, we probably would not be sitting here today having a free discussion between Russians and Americans." —Boris Pinsker, Soviet Economist.

Post-1991 - "Reagan was the main author of the victory of the Free World over the Evil Empire." - Radek Sikorski, Poland's deputy foreign minister, head of Solidarity during the Cold War, member of committee to rechristen one of Warsaw's central squares "Reagan Square."

Post-1991 - "American policy in the 1980s was a catalyst for the collapse of the Soviet Union." —Oleg Kalugin, former KGB general

Post-1991 - "[Reagan administration policies] were a major factor in the demise of the Soviet system." —Yevgenny Novikov, former senior staff member of the Soviet Communist Party Central Committee

Post-1991 - "Ronald Reagan's appeal ['Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!', Brandenburg Gate, Berlin, June 12th 1987], laughed at in the East as reverie and dismissed in the West as being a utopian dream, was to become reality a good two years later with the collapse of East Germany. After the fall of the Wall on 9 November 1989, Brandenburg Gate was officially opened on December 22nd of that year." —Germany's Berliner-Morgenpost International, From Fantasy to Wonderful Reality, 1997

I ask you: Who had more wisdom and foresight? The simple-minded "airhead"-actor from California? Or the pointy-headed intellectuals from universities of "higher learning"?


15 posted on 09/17/2001 10:52:35 AM PDT by VoodooEconomist
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To: yoswif
Most of the Russian regular army forces in Afghanistan were poorly trained and unmotivated draftees and they performed like poorly trained and unmotivated draftees. I don't expect US and allied forces to have those deficiencies.

The husband of a woman who works for my girlfriend was a soldier in the Russian army during the war in Afghanistan. He spent over six years as a prisoner. The prisoners were kept underground the entire time. Talk about a "hanoi hilton".
16 posted on 09/17/2001 10:54:30 AM PDT by LetsRok
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To: Bush2000
Actually, the Red Chinese were not supplying weapons to the North Vietnamese. Most of the aid came from East European Communist Bloc nations with a sprinkling of North Korean fighter plots. The Chinese were fighting with the North Vietnamese along their common border before during & after the war with U.S. They are traditional enemies.
17 posted on 09/17/2001 10:55:03 AM PDT by SgtSki
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To: waterstraat
And unfortunately, that is exactly what is going to happen. I am all for a strike right now, while the sentiment is on our side. But I also realize that this will not happen. Anyone waiting for the bombing to commence will be waiting a very, very long time I'm afraid.......
18 posted on 09/17/2001 10:56:52 AM PDT by CAPPSMADNESS
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To: Bush2000
Brother, you have been watching too many gunho movies. Bomb and loosin them up then sent in small teams. It ain't jungle over there with lots of cover. Who do you think will own the mountains, that is where the Mujahaddin hid.

If we go to Afghanistan, its going to be messy. Best option is to force them to hand over the main culprits.

19 posted on 09/17/2001 10:57:40 AM PDT by mrmax
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To: Bush2000
"Our infantry troops in Vietnam were cut to shreds..."

A number of reasons for that:
1)Difficulty in identifying the enemy.
2)Democrat-controlled government micromanaged war effort.

When the US became experienced - not including elite forces that already could beat the cong at their own game - the enemy could be defeated. ***But victory was not the goal of the Johnson administration - they had NO definite goal defined.***

In a conflict such as this, if it occurs, the US military must NOT be hamstrung by leaders wishing to make 'symbolic gestures' using the flesh & blood of the troops to accomplish the same.

20 posted on 09/17/2001 11:00:32 AM PDT by NoClones
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