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Re. your link - firstly, Bosnia and Kosovo are completely different events. The former was a terrible civil war where ALL sides did unimaginable things - Bosnian Serbs, Croats and Muslims.

Kosovo was a clampdown on separatists, and while atrocities were undoubtedly carried out by Serbian paramilitaries and police (and against Serbs, Roma and ‘disloyal’ Albanians by the Kosovo Liberation Army), you cannot compare it with Bosnia. I am by no means trying to belittle any terrible crimes that were carried out.

By linking to this clip, you are showing what terrible things happened in Bosnia, but it has no direct link to Kosovo. Ten years after the bombing of Yugoslavia, Kosovo legally remains a province of Serbia - as agreed by Nato, the UN and all parties involved in 1999 when UN Resolution 1244 was signed.

Serbia is now a democratic country under a new government and punishing the nation as a whole and taking their territory is immoral, illegal and dangerous.

My entire response to you seems to have been deleted for some bizarre reason.

There are no al-Qaeda in Kosova. "Genocidal means" were used by those who stand trial at the Hague. Kosova is not a "temporarily-conquered area", it is home to two million people with every right as you and me.

It is Kosovo. It is a province within Serbia and the name is KosovO, not Kosova, which is the Albanian language version. Genocide in Kosovo has been withdrawn as a charge at the Hague, where apparently it is acceptable to alter the charges after an arrest.

I agree that the inhabitants of Kosovo deserve to live peacefully, which includes the Serbs, Roma and non-KLA supporting Albanians who have been killed, terrorized or hounded out of their homes by the KLA post liberation (I hope that the 'international community' never 'liberates' us!!). The Serbian people should have the right to attend their own church within their own country without a military escort. Their children have a right to go to school without an armed guard. This is still Serbia as laid out in UN Resolution 1244.

Before NATO so ludicrously decided to support the KLA in its bid to annex territory from a sovereign nation as part of a well documented aim for Greater Albania, there was peace in Kosovo. All of the local signs were in Serbian and Albanian and the schools were mixed. If there was an argument about equal rights it could have been sorted out peacefully through diplomacy. The KLA wanted Nato to do its dirty work and NATO needed some ground soldiers. That alliance would not be so automatic if trouble kicked off again now.

I agree, and now it has paved the way for 'Bliar's Doctrine' http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3539125.stm

It is 'utter stupidity' to accuse anyone who was against the attack on Serbia as being 'Milosevic's defenders'... but then I'm sure that you know that anyway.

"Around my neck of the woods, we'd call a guy who takes money from an enemy of our nation a traitor"

At least we should wait until it's been investigated and proved.

They said 'coalition troops' - that could be British.

Yes, but the Tories badly need to get their act together. They are in a position to get back into power if they increase their appeal to the voters. IDS just doesn't get my vote - but others in his party would.

Sam - I would hardly compare Blair to Churchill. Away from the issue of Iraq, I am certain that very few Freepers would rate him at all - he represents everything that right wingers are against except when it comes to the current planned military action.

This is extremely bad news and places Serbia in very serious danger of spiralling into chaos. Apart from Djindjic there is no-one else to hold it all together.

Thanks for posting this reminder of the farce taking place at Den Hague. It's incredible that the prosticution can present a 'star' witness, fabricate statements, and then treat their own witness as hostile during cross-examination. Amazing.

But you must be so proud, A'Brit' - all those bombs, destruction, cluster bombing civilians, destroying a TV station and commuter train, breaking the Geneva Convention... and all for absolutely nothing. I notice that your entire response consists only of a few picked out cut & pastes and absolutely no comment from you at all. That’s a lazy methodology. Mind you, when you did add your opinion in the past it was to say things in support of revenge killings of innocent people in Kosovo by the KLA, so I don’t blame you for keeping your head low.

Let me tell you that I am against our troops being misused or used to break international law - this is one aspect of this which you have missed entirely throughout your pro-Blair stance over needlessly killing Serbs (and others) and attacking Yugoslavia. Troops sign up to defend Queen and Country, not to be used in this abominable manner so that Blaair can play evangelist draped in the colours of the Albanian flag in some camp in Macedonia. Those troops currently in Kosovo need not be there if the entire matter had been dealt with differently. Kosovo could have been resolved diplomatically.

It remains interesting to me why, with no ideas or thoughts of your own on the matter other than the official line, you vehemently hate anything or anyone Serbian (for whatever reason), and probably still think that the Kosovo ‘campaign’ was a success. Why can't you even consider anything outside of what President Blaair tells you? You should be able to visit and enjoy a nice relaxing holiday in the newly liberated province - then you can report back.

Your selections from the report (which isn’t even the same report, but never mind) are absolutely meaningless, they are mostly rebuttals by the likes of Cook to the original findings from the overall report that you have picked out.

eg) “50. The number of refugees and internally displaced people continued to grow, reaching 300,000 by September 1998”

…300,000 is nothing in the big scale of things… as I said earlier, the mass exodus of people started after the bombing began. This sort of number (300k) took place from Kosovo by Serbs and others fleeing the KLA after Nato entered; and also matches the number of Serbs kicked out of Krajina during the Bosnian war. The international community did not react to either of these situations (except to help during Operation Storm and not to stop the exodus while they were actually occupying and ‘protecting’ Kosovo).

eg) “86. It is clear that, as some predicted, there was an escalation in the violence against the Kosovo Albanians after the bombing began… …"They go on to report that "summary and arbitrary killing became a generalised phenomenon throughout Kosovo with the beginning of the NATO air campaign against the FRY on the night of 24/25 March."[201] The FCO itself has said that "around 10,000 Kosovo Albanians, many of them civilians, were killed by Yugoslav forces between June 1998 and June 1999…”

No-one denies that there were killings, but 10,000 ‘civilians’ between June 1998 and June 1999?? What nonsense - even now the numbers are not given as anywhere near 10,000.

In Jan 1999 Robin Cook said himself that up until that point there had been more killings by the KLA than vice versa (ie. by the state police). Hmm, separatists or police - I wonder which you would support in leafy Surrey under attack from a terrorist group?!

eg) “87. We cannot know exactly what would have happened if NATO had not launched its campaign when it did…”

Oh yes, the crystal ball phenomenom - we acted when we did because of what may have happened.

A’Brit’ you must be one of the few people left who even now think that the US and UK spent $billions to ‘save the Kosovar Albanians’ - if that was true why have they not responded to the even greater number of deaths and acts of violence post ‘liberation’? How nice to be able to believe that war is waged to ‘help’ people which have nothing to do with your own country whatsoever. And in order to justify an attack on a non-threatening nation, lies can be told on a massive scale to create the impression that genocide is under way - no questions asked.

For an overview, why not refer to the Blair Broadcasting Corps which did a summary of the Select Committee Report (and they are hardly know for having been open-minded about the entire ‘not-a-war’)? I won’t post the entire pieces, but here are selected highlights:

Tuesday, 24 October, 2000, 11:26 GMT 12:26 UK
UK Kosovo role slammed

The contribution of air strikes was 'at best marginal'

The British contribution to the Nato air campaign in Kosovo was disappointing, according to a report published on Tuesday.
The Commons Defence Select Committee report said the UK air forces were badly equipped and responsible for less than 5% of the Nato sorties flown.
…Britain's major contribution to the campaign was to drop unguided 1,000lb cluster bombs, which the committee condemned as "of limited military value and questionable legitimacy".
The 2% confirmed as hitting their targets was "distressingly low", it said.
…The whole Nato air campaign came in for criticism from the committee.
"The strikes against fielded forces in Kosovo failed in their declared primary objective of averting a humanitarian disaster," it said.
"The limitations of airpower in pursuit of such humanitarian goals were clearly demonstrated and this lesson must be learned."
The report added that there had been a "poor kill rate" and that the contribution of air strikes to the alliance's military objectives was "at best marginal".

Wednesday, 7 June, 2000, 13:51 GMT 14:51 UK
Kosovo campaign 'illegal', say MPs

Nato's bombing campaign was not sanctioned by the UN
A committee of MPs has issued a report strongly criticising the conduct, strategy and judgement of Nato's war against Serbia.
The Commons Foreign Affairs Select Committee said the military campaign was of "dubious legality", but added that Nato's intervention on behalf of Kosovo's ethnic Albanian population had been justifiable on moral grounds. {I know that you’ll love that bit!}
The MPs said Nato had made a "serious misjudgement" when the alliance failed to predict the mass expulsions from Kosovo that followed their air strikes on Serbia.
…The cross party committee is now urging the government to publish Nato's assessment of why it had not foreseen Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic's response, given the "over-riding public interest" in what happened.
The MPs concluded that Nato has no powers under its treaty to conduct a war on humanitarian grounds without the consent of the United Nations.
…The report said: "We conclude that Nato's military action, if of dubious legality in the current state of international law, was justified on moral grounds." {Break the law and then judge yourself on moral grounds.. that should be interesting!}
It added: "We believe a very serious misjudgment was made when it was assumed that the bombing would not lead to the dramatic escalation in the displacement and expulsion of the Kosovo Albanian population."
…The committee urged the government to reconsider the use of cluster bombs given the risk posed to civilians.
It also called on ministers to justify the controversial bombing of a Serb broadcasting station in which 16 people died, and to disclose the outcome of the review into the error which led to the accidental bombing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade by US warplanes.

Torie - all Destro's sentence lacked was punctuation. He was mimicking Robertson's famous words which caused so much controversy in 1999: "Serbs out, Nato in, Refugees back".

As for your comment about Mexico, it smacks of 'it could never happen to us'. Of course, it couldn't happen in the US because it's far too powerful for outside influences to play puppet master as they did in the Balkans. But the point is absolutely valid.

If there was a separatist movement in the States where its members started killing policemen and carving the insignia of their group on their bodies before dumping them to be found, I'm sure that there would be a VERY violent reaction. This is exactly what was happening in Kosovo (as was confirmed by Robin Cook in the British Parliament in Jan 1999 if you want to look it up).

The mass displacement of people (called 'genocide' at the time by a warmongering Western press) did not happen until after the bombing started. This was also stated by the UK Commons Defence Select Committee after the 'war', at the same time that they confirmed that the attack had been illegal.

Not all Albanians wanted independence. It wouldn't have mattered if they had been 'proud to be Serbian' (the equivalent to your Mexican analogy where you pressume, probably rightly, that immigrants are 'proud to be American'). That would be usual for a group of people who had chosen to live in another sovereign state. The point is that hardliners in what became the Western-backed KLA stoked up violence, hatred and terrorist separatist activities. That can happen anywhere in the world, even on your own doorstep.

The British troops in Northern Ireland have been clamping down on IRA terrorists over decades, and nobody threatened to bomb Britain unless they handed over the territory. Another very similar analogy.

By the way, do you know how many Albanians in Kosovo have been tortured, murdered or beaten by the KLA because they were seen as 'collaborators' or because they refused to join the KLA? There were thousands of innocent people, Serbs, Albanians, Roma, who were terrorised or killed by these thugs after the so-called liberation.

Kosovo is in a mess - it is run by gangsters who trade in people, guns and drugs. They are causing a major headache and rise in crime throughout Europe.

Elsewhere in Serbia, people are poor and things are very tough. There are Albanians living peacefully in Belgrade, but not a single Serb living peacefully in Nato's 'multicultural' Kosovo, even though it remains in their own country.

Finally, let's just remember that Resolution 1244 allowed for the return of Serbian troops and police to the province of Kosovo. This is not something which has come out of the blue. It was agreed by the UN and Nato. Why is it that so many people can't see this situation away from the political line spewed out? Serbia was never a threat to any other country - it only refused to lose its independence and provided a good non-aligned, non-threatening target for Nato to reassert itself in its 50th year. The whole thing could have been sorted out peacefully after the Serbs signed the Paris peace agreement which specified that UN, and not Nato, troops would be allowed into Yugoslavia.

As much as I detest Blair, the alternatives at the moment are non-existent on either side.

Yeah, but wouldn't it be great if my 'wish list' could be fulfilled?!

"Bush is rounding up Clinton/Blair's allies."

Call me a cynic but I'll believe it when the likes of Thaci and Ceku are arrested; others such as Izetbegovic appear before the ICTY for their crimes in Bosnia; the footage of Bin Laden and the mujahadeen in Bosnia is realeased and questions are asked about links to terrorist groups around the world; and the ICTY is run by someone who is not totally biased with a deep-seated hatred of Serbia.

Smokegenerator is 100% right in his ascertion that Kosovo is Serbian - this is accepted internationally, the boundaries remain in place and sovereign ownership of the territory rests with Serbia under Resolution 1244.

Of course the vast majority of Albanians are never going to accept this, but that's not going to change anything. Even Dole and McCain's powerful pro KLA lobby won't change anything. The KLA has shown itself to be a murderous bunch of thugs which are running the province of Kosovo as a smuggler's paradise. The whole of Europe has been affected by the high rate of crime and no European government is about to support independence (even Blair).

"Re-establishing entire control over Kosovo is a double-edged sword, as the international community won't allow that to happen."

Djindjic has it right though - the troops may well be needed elsewhere in the world pretty soon. I think that it is a possibility that there will be a handing back of control to the Serbian government in Kosovo, but it is bound to spark off major trouble from the KLA. The 'international community' would have to be prepared to support the transition realistically and work with the reformed Serbian government.

It was a cheap shot (so to speak) - I just couldn't resist... what is a wonk anyway?

Are you sure you used the right vowel?

"The Empire of Greater Albania will never permit the return of Yugoslav troops to the sovereign Albanian province of Kosovo."

The 'Empire of Greater Albania' is going to be left chewing nails on this one, Fusion. It's already been agreed as part of Resolution 1244 that a certain number of troops and police will be allowed to return.

This Resolution also ascertains Serbia's sovereign control of the province, allows for the safe return of the 100,000 or so Serbian people (and Roma and other groups) who have been terrorised out of their homes in their own country by the KLA, and excludes the possibility of independence.

The 'international community' may choose to sit safely on the fence, but it's not going to be indefinite, and despite a powerful lobby in the US there is a still a majority view against handing independence to the mob which would take charge. These are the same gangs already causing so much crime elsewhere in Europe.

"Should Belgrade be so foolish as to attempt such an illegal invasion then the descendents of Ancient Illyria -- landed free men in the finest Western tradition -- will once more crush the overrated VJ as happened in 1999."

Oh yes, and they did it all on their own!!? The KLA was the chosen ally of the moment which is why they were kitted out, armed and heavily supported by Nato. Now the KLA is back to being seen as what they are - a violent bunch of separatists who are trying to annex sovereign territory.

Considering that the VJ was being fired on by the most powerful military alliance in the world it's pretty incredible that they successfully managed to fight the KLA at the same time.