Bush Arrives in Vietnam

[MaineVoter2002]

China's much larger (and historical) economic changes.

How much positive change can actually occur when a nation demands their own version of Google to keep their people from surfing politically forbidden websites?

[diesel00]

At this point China blocks a lot from its people on the internet while Vietnamese people in internet cafes and at home can even freely surf Freerepublic. While Vietnam is far from perfect, the people do have much more freedom of information than do the chinese people.

Vietnam DOES CENSOR a lot of websites. They just haven't gotten as good as the Chinese govt has. See this site http://www.opennet.net/studies/vietnam/. Quote: "The Socialist Republic of Vietnam regulates access to the Internet by its citizens extensively, through both technical and legal means. This study by the OpenNet Initiative (ONI) finds that the Vietnamese state attempts to block citizens from accessing political and religious material deemed to be subversive along various axes."

While China may be blocking some internet access, the sheer number of Chinese with the means to the internet and foreign media outweighs any attempt to block information. Basically the information is available for anyone who is seeking. There are a lot more internet users per capita in China than in Vietnam.

[FLOutdoorsman]

China as a whole, more so the Chinese people in general operate on the Collective. The whole is more important than the individual. That is why it is so easy for them to embrace Communism.

[killjoy]

FReepers here are jumping up and down at the news and dreaming of containing China with Vietnam (a country 1/40 the size of China).

Vietnam is not going to 'contain' China, but they do have the potential to make a huge impact. If Vietnam offers a low-tax, low-corruption, alternative, western companies will set up regional offices there. If there is massive capital drain from surrounding countries like Thailand and China, it will end up forcing them to adopt similar policies, or become insignificant in the global scheme of things. This is a win win for everyone involved. It is 100% in the interest of the US to encourage reforms in Vietnam and make sure it doesn't turn out like its neighbors.

[killjoy]

China as a whole, more so the Chinese people in general operate on the Collective. The whole is more important than the individual.

ROTFLMAO. You haven't been to China, have you?

[diesel00]

China as a whole, more so the Chinese people in general operate on the Collective. The whole is more important than the individual. That is why it is so easy for them to embrace Communism.

How is this different from Vietnam? And how do you reconcile democratic and capitalist Taiwan, which is 98% ethnic Chinese? The Japanese are just as collectivist, you see this in their corperate model. The first democratic government in Asia was in China (Republic of China founded in 1911). There is no cultural impediment for the Chinese to embrace democracy and capitalism.

[MaineVoter2002]

I dissagree with you. I have friends online in both China and Vietnam (have been friends since 2000) and many sites I share with those in China they cannot open while those in Vietnam never have a problem opening any websites I send including anti-communist articles in Freerepublic, Newsmax, Foxnews...there has been nothing my friends in Hanoi and Saigon have not been able to open. China is a different story.

Text Messaging to and from Vietnam is never banned while in China they are recently clamping down on Text messaging not only international SMS but also domestic ones.

I dont need to open your link because I know from experience what is and what is not allowed in Vietnam. I not only have friends there but also spent time in Vietnam just this year.

Freerepublic is not what I consider a communist friendly website yet it's accessible in Vietnam.

Where improvement is needed in Vietnam is the right to publically denounce their own government. That is what they cannot do. Their situation is about the same as that of today's Venezuelan people under Chavez.

[diesel00]

corperate --> corporate

[do the dhue]

Hey in 40 years we can ally with Osama Bin Laden!

It is not the same. Vietnam is different. Being a former French colony before Japan took over during WWII, the French cried on Truman's shoulder for us to give them their colony back after the war.

I think if Truman knew what we know, Truman would have told the French that Vietnam is a free and sovereign nation. Then he would have went on to say that the French should sit down and shut up because they are lucky to be speaking French.

Ho Chi Ming wrote Truman letters just like the French. Ming told Truman that if he turns Vietnam into France he will stand and fight (if Truman gives France their colony back). Who can blame Ming for that. I wouldn't want to speak French either. Well, Ming stood and fought. The Commies were happy to sell weapons to Ming. The French got the butts handed to them, again. Then we had to step in to stop the spread of Communism. That is the way I see it anyway.

The strange thing is, if you read Ming's letters to Truman, I think Ming wanted to be Capitalist.

He told Truman that he didn't want Communist support but will take it if he had too. Ming is tricky though, so you have to be careful. From his letters, I think he wanted to be a little America and not a little China or Russia.

And if Vietnam becomes a Capitalist State, then Ming will be true to his word. He said that he did not want Vietnam to be Communist or Frenchmen.

Bin Laden is different, I mean, what did the French ever do to him?

[Frank_2001]

I'd like to see free ELECTIONS, in addition to free markets....

[BW2221]

I think Kerry fought for the VC, but that's okay. If there's another Mexican-American War, Bush plans to enlist in the Mexican Air Force.

[diesel00]

I dissagree with you. I have friends online in both China and Vietnam (have been friends since 2000) and many sites I share with those in China they cannot open while those in Vietnam never have a problem opening any websites I send including anti-communist articles in Freerepublic, Newsmax, Foxnews...there has been nothing my friends in Hanoi and Saigon have not been able to open. China is a different story.

Vietnam has only 1 to 2 million internet users, a small fraction of their total population. They will not block sites like Free Republic and Newsmax. It is not cost effective to mine through every site on the internet. China has an internet user base in the hundreds of millions. When Vietnam becomes richer and grows its internet user base, you will see more blocking as well. Five years ago, the uncensored Google was widely accessible in China because the internet user base was still small compared to total population. But now it has exploded in size and you see the banning.

Using internet censorship as a means of judging the openness of Vietnam's government compared to China's is simply anecdotal, like your post above.

[BW2221]

You don't understand - to many conservatives it's only about economics.

[easternsky]

I said it on earlier thread. And I will say it again. The thought of AIR FORCE ONE, landing in Hanoi makes me want to vomit. BRING THEM HOME OR SEND US BACK. There are just some things you cant forget.

[MaineVoter2002]

The ruling communist party has lost control. Vietnam is communist in name only

Exactly! The people under 30 there know more about American pop culture than I do. They have Oprah and American Idol and because it's delayed they're always texting me to ask me who won on a particular show.

[PzLdr]

Viet Nam is a Marxist government with elements of a capitalist economic system. You consider China a capitalist country?

[La Enchiladita]

I hear you and I stand with you.

[zarf]

Begging the question:

Could this moment had been achieved without the destruction and death of the Vietnam war?

[MaineVoter2002]

Using internet censorship as a means of judging the openness of Vietnam's government

I am not using internet censorship as the only means of judging the openess of Vietnam. I have friends there and they tell me what they can and cannot do, what they like and do not like. I use them and my own experience there to judge the openess of Vietnam.

[ALOHA RONNIE]

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It's HO CHI MINH, who became an indoctrinated Communist while studying as a young man at a University in Paris, France during the 1920's.


HO CHI MINH then returned to Vietnam dedicated to turning all of S.E. Asia over to Communism. And went on to the Communist Soviet Union for more specifici training to make it so.




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