Pope Set To Return To Traditional Liturgy

Web India ^ | June 20,2005 | Web India staff

[Lady In Blue]

Pope set to return to traditional liturgy:-

VATICAN CITY | June 19, 2005 5:11:27 AM IST

Pope Benedict XVI wants to restore the traditional ceremonial Mass in St. Peter's Basilica, with Latin instead of the vernacular and Gregorian chants.

Vatican expert Sandro Magister reported in his weekly newsletter Saturday that the pope is expected to replace Archbishop Pietro Marini, his predecessor Pope John Paul II's master of liturgical ceremonies.

Whoever follows Marini will have orders to restore the traditional style and choreography of papal ceremonies in St. Peter's.

Out will go the international Masses so dear to Pope John Paul II's heart, with such innovations as Latin American and African rhythms and even dancing, multi-lingual readings and children in national costumes bringing gifts to the altar.

Pope Benedict wants to return to the Sistine Chapel choirs singing Gregorian chant and the church music of such composers as Claudio Monteverdi from the 17th century. He also wants to revive the Latin Mass.

Archbishop Marini always planned the ceremonies with television in mind, Magister said, and that emphasis will remain. A decade ago the Vatican set up a system for transmitting papal ceremonies world wide via multiple satellites.

(UPI)

[Hermann the Cherusker]

f you attend a Tridentine Mass you'll notice that the readings and homily are in the vernacular. Similarly, in the Novus Ordo, Latin will add great unity especially in America where so many languages are spoken in the same city.

Yes, what a shame that we cannot have Latin Masses, where the readings are done in English and Spanish for example, rather than bifurcate the parish into English and Spanish masses.

[sempertrad]

So many people forget that the Traditional Mass, prayed entirely in Latin, was the primary source of spiritual sustenance and inspiration of all of those who we call saints. While many of the saints were well educated, many of them were illiterate. They united their intentions to the priests reciting the latin prayers (audibly or silently). Considering the holy lives they lived, they obviously were "able to understand EVERYTHING, every little minute detail, every little word said by the man leading the service."

St. John Vienny, IIRC, flunked out of a few seminaries because he was unable to grasp latin. He prayed for help and he knuckled down and finally got it. Contrast that to the 2005 man in the same situation: He'd most likely form some pesky movement for disgruntled people who want everything dumbed down to accomodate those don't want to have to work hard at learning something.

[bornacatholic]

:) I was probably being too arguementative. Sorry.

[dangus]

VERMONT???

[sinkspur]

The Novus Ordo is not going to be abolished, in our lifetimes. Those who desire the Tridentine Mass should be accommodated, however.

[dangus]

I'm not longing for all Latin masses, but your comments are sorta silly. Basically, you're saying that the Latin Mass may be said under the same conditions that defrocked pedophiles can say mass.

[dangus]

>>>>Latin is not essential to the mass. You can say it in English and it would mean the same.<<<<

>>You know what--you're right. :)<<

>>But suppose some of us *choose* to worship in Latin? Do you think that people who prefer a non-vernacular liturgical language should be excluded from worshiping that way?<<

Actually, he's not right. I'm not so excited about bringing back Latin, but I am excited about the Una Voce project, which will purge about 1000 heresy-inducing mistranslations from the English mass.

Turns out what we say in English does NOT mean the same thing.

[Dominick]

Basically, you're saying that the Latin Mass may be said under the same conditions that defrocked pedophiles can say mass.

This comment is silly.

Any priest can say Mass privately, even pedophiles. They have to act with the Ordinary in Public Ministry, that is Canon Law.

[franky]

###"Three Sundays ago was "Respect Life" Sunday. Our priest managed to avoid mentioning both abortion and euthanasia in his 10 minute oration. Some effort in English or Latin!"###

Your priest is probably afraid to lose parishioners?

I complained to my local pastor about teenagers receiving the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity with chewing gum in their mouths. His response was that he did not want to have them turn away or not come to Church. Finally, the Parochial Vicar on leave here for 3 years (Nigeria)mentioned it at one his masses.

The same priest has given homilies about abortion and euthanasia while the pastor has not covered that ground.

The pastor also mentioned receiving several letters criticizing his discussion on gay marriage. I have not heard anything thing, since.

I head up an interdenominational pro life group and the support from the parishioners has been terrible. Our group would be dead if we did not have the Evangelicals.

We have several Catholic MDs and their families and you could not get them within 1000 yards of one of our meetings.

If you want to hear pro life, euthanasia, gay rights etc. watch EWTN. Their Masses tell it like it is.

[Tax-chick]

No problem - I was sorta off-topic :-).

[franky]

###"Latin is not essential to the mass. You can say it in English and it would mean the same. I think the awe-inspiring atmosphere is enough to keep people centered. You don't need a language that could be a stumbling block."###

Sorry but you are wrong.

In English: "And also with you". In Latin: "Et cum spiritu tuo"

Completely different. Your comments on the vernacular v. Latin are way off base.

[Rosary]

BLESSED BE GOD FOR THIS GREAT NEWS!!!!

MAY GOD GUIDE HIS POPE AND HIS FLOCKS BACK TO THE LATIN TRIDENTINE MASSES!!

[rwfromkansas]

There is always that risk in translation. But, we do it anyway. You just have to be careful to translate as best as you can.

If there are errors in translation, they need corrected. I am all for that.

[rwfromkansas]

What an arrogant attiude.

Using the language of the people is dumbing it down.

You have the same attitude of your previous Catholics who said no Bible for you to the commoners.

[rwfromkansas]

And burned John Hus alive.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

The Novus Ordo is not going to be abolished, in our lifetimes.

The words "in our lifetimes" always strike me as reminding me of the Kaddish.

Well, lets say the Kaddish that the Novous Ordo might be abolished in our lifetimes. So appropriate for its demise.

"May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days, and in the lifetimes of the entire Family of Israel, swiftly and soon. Now respond: Amen.
"May His great Name be blessed forever and ever. Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled, mighty, upraised, and lauded be the Name of the Holy One, Blessed is He beyond any blessing and song, praise and consolation that are uttered in the world. Now respond: Amen.
"May there be abundant peace from Heaven, and life upon us and upon all Israel. Now respond: Amen.
"He Who makes peace in His heights, may He make peace, upon us and upon all Israel. Now respond: Amen."

[Hermann the Cherusker]

And burned John Hus alive.

St. john 15.6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch and shall wither: and they shall gather him up and cast him into the fire: and he burneth.

[dsc]

"Believe it or not, English is the language that has become the stumbling block for many of us, because the prayers of the Mass in their official English translations do not say what they are supposed to say."

Spot on. Take two of the most beloved prayers, the Anima Christi and the Salve Regina.

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!
Our life, our sweetness, and our hope!
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve
To thee do we send up our sighs,
Mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us; and
after this our exile show unto us the
blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus;
O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.
Pray for us, O holy Mother of God
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

Every time I'd finish a rosary, it would be embarrassing to me to say these words. I think this was because they just sounded so trite, so poorly written. Insufficiently reverent and weighty, perhaps.

Then I started fooling around with a bit of Latin.

Wow, what a difference.

Salve Regína, Mater misericórdiæ;
Vita dulcédo, et spes nostra, salve.
Ad te Clamámus éxsules fílii Evæ;
Ad te Suspirámus, geméntes et flentes in hac lacrimárum valle.
Eia ergo, Advocáta nostra,
Illos tuos misericórdes óculos ad nos convérte:
Et Iesum, benedíctum fructum ventris tui,
Nobis post hoc exsílium osténde.
O clemens, o pia, o dulcis Virgo María.
V/. Ora pro nobis, Sancta Dei Génetrix.
R/. Ut digni efficiámur promissionibus Christi.
Amen.

Now, I'm not qualified to offer any kind of authoritative translation, but I'd like to try and convey a sense of what I mean. Scholars please be tolerant.

Salutation, Queen, merciful mother, our sweet life and our hope. I greet you.
To you we cry, we banished children of Eve.
To you we sigh, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears.
Therefore, our advocate, turn your merciful eyes upon us,
And to the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus,
Lead us when our exile is ended.
Gentle, pious, kind Virgin Mary
Pray for us, Holy Mother of God
That we may become worthy of the promises of Christ.
Amen.

I know that those who have actually studied Latin will find lots to criticize there. I'm not even sure about the comma placement in “vita dulcedo, et spes nostra.”

But how did “salve Regina” become “Hail Holy Queen?” Where did the “holy” come from? And how did “exsules fílii Evæ” become “poor banished children of Eve?” Where did the “poor” come from? How did they get "most gracious" out of "advocata nostra?"

Ad te clamamus is “To thee do we cry,” but ad te suspiramus becomes, “To thee do we send up our sighs.”

Looking at, “Et Iesum, benedíctum fructum ventris tui, Nobis post hoc exsílium osténde.” I guess that “Show us Jesus after our exile” is a reasonable translation of that, but perhaps a scholar can explain why that “osténde” does not have connotations of “point out,” which would imply leading us to Him.

I'm sorry if this offends anybody, but I don't think the accepted translation could have been any worse if they had been deliberately trying to turn it into schlock. It looks as though it had been done by an exceptionally overemotional and literarily talentless 14-year-old girl.

I've run across that sort of thing quite frequently since I started playing around with Latin. In the Apostles' Creed Our Lord “descendit ad infernos.” No weaseling around there. But in the missal everybody reads from at Mass He doesn't do that at all.

All my life Our Lord was crucified between two thieves. Two common criminals. One day at Mass suddenly we were told that he was crucified between two “revolutionaries.”

Is that the smoke of Satan, or the smoke of Fidel's cigar? Or is there any difference?

Here's a schlocky translation of the Anima Christi:

> Soul of Christ, make me holy
> Body of Christ, be my salvation
> Blood of Christ, let me drink your wine
> Water flowing from the side of Christ, wash me clean
> Passion of Christ, strengthen me
> Kind Jesus, hear my prayer
> Hide me within your wounds
> And keep me close to you
> Defend me from the evil enemy
> And call me at the hour of my death
> To the fellowship of your saints
> That I might sing your praise with them
> for all eternity, Amen."

Oh, my.

Anima Christi, sanctifica me.
Corpus Christi, salva me.
Sanguis Christi, inebria me.
Aqua lateris Christi, lava me.
Passio Christi, conforta me.
O bone Iesu, exaudi me.
Intra tua vulnera absconde me.
Ne permittas me separari a te.
Ab hoste maligno defende me.
In hora mortis meae voca me.
Et iube me venire ad te,
Ut cum Sanctis tuis laudem te
In saecula saeculorum.

Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me. (Save me from my own sinful nature, save me from eternal damnation, save me from doing things that offend you, save me from the Evil One.)
Blood of Christ, inebriate me. (Make me drunk with Love of you, drunk with Your love, drunk with contemplation of Your Mercy, Your suffering, Your Sacrifice, Your Victory, Your Resurrection, Your Majesty and Glory.)
Water from the side of Christ, wash me. (Wash away my sins and sinfulness.)
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
Good Jesus, hear me!
Within Your wounds hide me (From the Evils of Satan and the world)
And let me not be separated from You.
From the hosts of Evil defend me.
At the hour of my death call me and bid me come to You,
That together with Your saints I may praise You for all eternity. Amen

I really don't know why people today seem to have such a hard time with "Sanguis Christi, inebria me." Perhaps it's because mystical experiences and transports of rapture are thought by so many to be medieval and unsophisticated. In my humble estimation, this is a plea for religious ecstasy of a sort that can be likened to inebriation.

And above all, in Latin these prayers are *poems,* with rhyming and meter. They scan, they flow, they are art as well as prayer.

Just as good in English? Ask a Frenchman if Proust is "just as good" in English. Check out a Japanese "translation" of Shakespeare some time.

Translations are never "just as good" (In accordance with that well-known universal law, "If something is 'just as good,' it ain't.")

[sinkspur]

Well, lets say the Kaddish that the Novous Ordo might be abolished in our lifetimes.

No thanks.

[bornacatholic]

Deuteronomy 17:

When there shall be found among you within any of thy gates, which the Lord thy God shall give thee, man or woman that do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, and transgress his covenant,

3 So as to go and serve strange gods, and adore them, the sun and the moon, and all the host of heaven, which I have not commanded:

4 And this is told thee, and hearing it thou hast inquired diligently, (Inquisition) and found it to be true, and that the abomination is committed in Israel:

5 Thou shalt bring forth the man or the woman, who have committed that most wicked thing, to the gates of thy city, and they shall be stoned.

* We Christian Catholics were just, once again, following the Bible and Tradition. But, different times call for different responses. We are a kinder and gentler Church now :)

But, let's not neglect Moses in this discussion. As the First Inquisitor, in two days he killed more people than all the various Catholic Inquisitions combined. Moses ordered FAR MORE killed.

Exodus 32

27 And he said to them: Thus saith the Lord God of Israel: Put every man his sword upon his thigh: go, and return from gate to gate through the midst of the camp, and let every man kill his brother, and friend, and neighbour. 28 And the sons of Levi did according to the words of Moses, and there were slain that day about three and twenty thousand men.

Numbers 25

And Moses said to the judges of Israel: Let every man kill his neighbours, that have been initiated to Beelphegor.

9 And there were slain four and twenty thousand men

Numbers 31

And Moses being angry with the chief officers of the army, the tribunes, and the centurions that were come from the battle,

15 Said: Why have you saved the women?

16 Are not these they, that deceived the children of Israel by the counsel of Balaam, and made you transgress against the Lord by the sin of Phogor, for which also the people was punished?

17 Therefore kill all that are of the male sex, even of the children: and put to death the women, that have carnally known men.

18 But the girls, and all the women that are virgins save for yourselves:

* Why is your enmity reserved solely for Christians?