Skip to comments.Pope Set To Return To Traditional Liturgy
Posted on 06/19/2005 9:33:26 PM PDT by Lady In Blue
Pope set to return to traditional liturgy:-
VATICAN CITY | June 19, 2005 5:11:27 AM IST
Pope Benedict XVI wants to restore the traditional ceremonial Mass in St. Peter's Basilica, with Latin instead of the vernacular and Gregorian chants.
Vatican expert Sandro Magister reported in his weekly newsletter Saturday that the pope is expected to replace Archbishop Pietro Marini, his predecessor Pope John Paul II's master of liturgical ceremonies.
Whoever follows Marini will have orders to restore the traditional style and choreography of papal ceremonies in St. Peter's.
Out will go the international Masses so dear to Pope John Paul II's heart, with such innovations as Latin American and African rhythms and even dancing, multi-lingual readings and children in national costumes bringing gifts to the altar.
Pope Benedict wants to return to the Sistine Chapel choirs singing Gregorian chant and the church music of such composers as Claudio Monteverdi from the 17th century. He also wants to revive the Latin Mass.
Archbishop Marini always planned the ceremonies with television in mind, Magister said, and that emphasis will remain. A decade ago the Vatican set up a system for transmitting papal ceremonies world wide via multiple satellites.
So we'd lose the Gospel and homily but the rest would be straight foward. We could just bring our own Bible.
No offense, but I'm sure this is confusing to people from Kansas (except for white Catholics in Kansas City in need of a Mass and wander into a Spanish Mass.)
As a practical matter, they would only have to learn the Mass in Latin. I seem to recall reading of foreign movie actors who managed to learn a leading part in English (I'm not a movie buff, so I can't be specific here; but someone might know).
Church Latin is rather simpler than classical -- the sentence structure is more like that of the modern languages, and there is more use of prepositions with less dependence on case alone carrying the meaning.
Without addressing your other points (I have no quarrel), I just think learning the Latin Mass is rather a small obstacle, as obstacles go.
When I was about 7 or 8, an elderly neighbor moved and gave my mother a bunch of stuff (for lack of a more exact description -- LOL!). In one of the boxes was an older Missal. I was looking at the hymns in the back, and one was "Hark! What Mean Those Awful Voices?" I was shocked, shocked, I tell you! (My mother explained.)
As you note, however, the problem is they don't know any grammar. When my sister taught beginning French (as a grad student to undergrads), she found she had to explain -- in English -- the very concept of nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, clauses, etc. before she could explain the French grammer.
Catholic seminaries are teaching Biblical Greek and Hebrew? To people who know no grammar? New one on me!
My wife is a convert with no training in Latin whatever. When we go to Latin Mass, we take Missals and she reads along in English while the priest reads the Latin. By this point, she knows exactly where the priest is in the passage, and she can usually piece together the sense of it even without a translation. We give all the responses we are supposed to give, and we know what every single one of them mean.
I might also point out that in Latin Masses, the priest reads the Gospel and Epistle a second time during the homily--and this time in English. The only people who are "in the dark" about the Gospel are the ones who aren't paying attention.
Having a non-vernacular liturgical language is not as obscurantist as some would have you believe. It is as old as the Greek and Aramaic speaking Jews using Hebrew.
You know what--you're right. :)
But suppose some of us *choose* to worship in Latin? Do you think that people who prefer a non-vernacular liturgical language should be excluded from worshiping that way?
You're giving a very bad account of yourself on this thread. All I see from you is ignorance, pride, and a wish to give offense. You are criticising things of which you have no understanding.
yep, this is really prideful and trying to offend:
"Hmm....interesting perspective. You do have a good point there."
Well, let's not forget that the East uses Coptic (extinct), Syriac (I think that's extinct too). Old Church Slavonic can really no longer be called a vernacular--it's become a strictly liturgical language at this point. And I would doubt if the Greek liturgies were completely in the koine Greek of today. There's an intrinsic linguistic conservatism to liturgy which is well to keep in mind.
A good case can be made for a Mass in English, but IMHO the best route to go there would be something akin to the Mass of the Anglican Use, rather than the present butcheries of ICEL.
As a man prays, so does he believe.
Sounds good to me!
The average Catholic Mass in the U.S. has had just about all of the "awe-inspiring atmosphere" drained out of it, unfortunately.
You don't need a language that could be a stumbling block.
Believe it or not, English is the language that has become the stumbling block for many of us, because the prayers of the Mass in their official English translations do not say what they are supposed to say.
(There's a priest who runs a column in a certain weekly Catholic newspapers called "What Does the Prayer Really Say," where he takes the Latin original, translates it exactly and literally, and then compares it against the officially approved translation. Sometimes the differences are so great it's actually humorous, in a dark sort of way. As I joke to my wife, "And suddenly, there were with the angels, a multitude of the heavenly host, praising God and saying ..." becomes "And the they saw some angels, who said nice stuff to God ...".)
The problem is being fixed, albeit slowly. In the meantime (and maybe for good), I'd much rather hear Mass said with the correct prayers in Latin, and follow along in a book, than with distorted and dumbed-down prayers in English.
Is it necessary to attempt to start a flame war on every thread? Even though this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with the SSPX, you are the first to bring it up in your little editorial barb.
"And Pilate wrote a title also: and he put it upon the cross. And the writing was: JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. This title therefore many of the Jews did read: because the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city. And it was written in Hebrew, in Greek, and in Latin." (St. John 19.19-20)
The Church has always used Aramaic (lingua franca of the Hebrews) in all of Asia, Greek in the Eastern Empire, and Latin in the Western Empire and Francia. Other Liturgical languages such as Slavonic, Coptic, and Armenian are daughters of this useage.
Where did you see filthy and dishonoring in the above quotations?
If you'd like to see an expansion of Sacral Languages in the Church, you can joins us to work for the reunion of the Anglo-Catholics and Nodic-Catholics from the Anglican and Lutheran folds.
Most major religions use dead languages.
Catholicism uses Ecclesiastical Latin, Roman Greek, Chuch Slavonic, Coptic, and Aramaic (among others)
Eastern Orthodoxy uses Roman Greek and Church Slavonic (not today's Greek)
Assyrian Catholicism (so-called Nestorianism) uses Aramaic
Oriental Orthodoxy uses Coptic, Aramaic, Ge'ez, and ancient Armenian
Judaism uses Hebrew
Hinduism and Mahayana Buddhism uses Sanskrit
Islam uses classical Arabic
Shintoism uses ancient Japanese
Theravad Bus=ddhism uses Pali
Confucianism and Chinese Buddhism uses classical Chinese
Even some Protestant communities get this concept.
Anglicans use Elizabethan English
Amish use classic High German
Over half the Catholic Church speaks Latin derived Romance languages as their vernacular (Spanish, Italian, Portugese, French, Romanian, Romansch, Vlach, Ladino, etc.)
My wife is fluent in Spanish and passably able to speak some French and Italian. When I took her to the Latin Mass for the first time, she had no trouble at all follwoing along, and commented that except for the grammatical structure, different pronunciations and some strange words here or there, she understood much of it quite well.
Even myself speaking only English and German, it only took a couple of months of following along to pick up the gist of the meaning of much of the service simply from a knowledge of Latinisms and Francophone words in English.
I would imagine that most speakers of Romance languages understand quite a bit of the Latin Mass. It is only a true barrier for the Germanic peoples and Africans. And the Africans always welcomed Latin as a source of unity among their quarrelsome tribes.
Far better to abolish the Novus Ordo and allow the Tridentine Mass to be said either in Latin or the Vernacular. The people will then quickly sort out how many Latin Masses are really wanted by their attendance patterns, provided all Parishes offer at least one Latin Mass per weekend. Even Sinkspur, bless his Vatican II-ized heart, told me a Catholic such as himself could see the merit in this.
Instinct tells me that among the present generation, it will work out for now to 1/4 to 1/3 of all Masses in Latin.
Yes, what a shame that we cannot have Latin Masses, where the readings are done in English and Spanish for example, rather than bifurcate the parish into English and Spanish masses.
So many people forget that the Traditional Mass, prayed entirely in Latin, was the primary source of spiritual sustenance and inspiration of all of those who we call saints. While many of the saints were well educated, many of them were illiterate. They united their intentions to the priests reciting the latin prayers (audibly or silently). Considering the holy lives they lived, they obviously were "able to understand EVERYTHING, every little minute detail, every little word said by the man leading the service."
St. John Vienny, IIRC, flunked out of a few seminaries because he was unable to grasp latin. He prayed for help and he knuckled down and finally got it. Contrast that to the 2005 man in the same situation: He'd most likely form some pesky movement for disgruntled people who want everything dumbed down to accomodate those don't want to have to work hard at learning something.
:) I was probably being too arguementative. Sorry.
The Novus Ordo is not going to be abolished, in our lifetimes. Those who desire the Tridentine Mass should be accommodated, however.
I'm not longing for all Latin masses, but your comments are sorta silly. Basically, you're saying that the Latin Mass may be said under the same conditions that defrocked pedophiles can say mass.
>>>>Latin is not essential to the mass. You can say it in English and it would mean the same.<<<<
>>You know what--you're right. :)<<
>>But suppose some of us *choose* to worship in Latin? Do you think that people who prefer a non-vernacular liturgical language should be excluded from worshiping that way?<<
Actually, he's not right. I'm not so excited about bringing back Latin, but I am excited about the Una Voce project, which will purge about 1000 heresy-inducing mistranslations from the English mass.
Turns out what we say in English does NOT mean the same thing.
No problem - I was sorta off-topic :-).
BLESSED BE GOD FOR THIS GREAT NEWS!!!!
MAY GOD GUIDE HIS POPE AND HIS FLOCKS BACK TO THE LATIN TRIDENTINE MASSES!!
There is always that risk in translation. But, we do it anyway. You just have to be careful to translate as best as you can.
If there are errors in translation, they need corrected. I am all for that.
What an arrogant attiude.
Using the language of the people is dumbing it down.
You have the same attitude of your previous Catholics who said no Bible for you to the commoners.
And burned John Hus alive.
The words "in our lifetimes" always strike me as reminding me of the Kaddish.
Well, lets say the Kaddish that the Novous Ordo might be abolished in our lifetimes. So appropriate for its demise.
"May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days, and in the lifetimes of the entire Family of Israel, swiftly and soon. Now respond: Amen.
"May His great Name be blessed forever and ever. Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled, mighty, upraised, and lauded be the Name of the Holy One, Blessed is He beyond any blessing and song, praise and consolation that are uttered in the world. Now respond: Amen.
"May there be abundant peace from Heaven, and life upon us and upon all Israel. Now respond: Amen.
"He Who makes peace in His heights, may He make peace, upon us and upon all Israel. Now respond: Amen."
St. john 15.6 If any one abide not in me, he shall be cast forth as a branch and shall wither: and they shall gather him up and cast him into the fire: and he burneth.
"Believe it or not, English is the language that has become the stumbling block for many of us, because the prayers of the Mass in their official English translations do not say what they are supposed to say."
Spot on. Take two of the most beloved prayers, the Anima Christi and the Salve Regina.
Hail, holy Queen, Mother of Mercy!
Our life, our sweetness, and our hope!
To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve
To thee do we send up our sighs,
Mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn, then, most gracious advocate,
thine eyes of mercy toward us; and
after this our exile show unto us the
blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus;
O clement, O loving, O sweet virgin Mary.
Pray for us, O holy Mother of God
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.
Every time I'd finish a rosary, it would be embarrassing to me to say these words. I think this was because they just sounded so trite, so poorly written. Insufficiently reverent and weighty, perhaps.
Then I started fooling around with a bit of Latin.
Wow, what a difference.
Salve Regína, Mater misericórdiæ;
Vita dulcédo, et spes nostra, salve.
Ad te Clamámus éxsules fílii Evæ;
Ad te Suspirámus, geméntes et flentes in hac lacrimárum valle.
Eia ergo, Advocáta nostra,
Illos tuos misericórdes óculos ad nos convérte:
Et Iesum, benedíctum fructum ventris tui,
Nobis post hoc exsílium osténde.
O clemens, o pia, o dulcis Virgo María.
V/. Ora pro nobis, Sancta Dei Génetrix.
R/. Ut digni efficiámur promissionibus Christi.
Now, I'm not qualified to offer any kind of authoritative translation, but I'd like to try and convey a sense of what I mean. Scholars please be tolerant.
Salutation, Queen, merciful mother, our sweet life and our hope. I greet you.
To you we cry, we banished children of Eve.
To you we sigh, mourning and weeping in this vale of tears.
Therefore, our advocate, turn your merciful eyes upon us,
And to the blessed fruit of your womb, Jesus,
Lead us when our exile is ended.
Gentle, pious, kind Virgin Mary
Pray for us, Holy Mother of God
That we may become worthy of the promises of Christ.
I know that those who have actually studied Latin will find lots to criticize there. I'm not even sure about the comma placement in vita dulcedo, et spes nostra.
But how did salve Regina become Hail Holy Queen? Where did the holy come from? And how did exsules fílii Evæ become poor banished children of Eve? Where did the poor come from? How did they get "most gracious" out of "advocata nostra?"
Ad te clamamus is To thee do we cry, but ad te suspiramus becomes, To thee do we send up our sighs.
Looking at, Et Iesum, benedíctum fructum ventris tui, Nobis post hoc exsílium osténde. I guess that Show us Jesus after our exile is a reasonable translation of that, but perhaps a scholar can explain why that osténde does not have connotations of point out, which would imply leading us to Him.
I'm sorry if this offends anybody, but I don't think the accepted translation could have been any worse if they had been deliberately trying to turn it into schlock. It looks as though it had been done by an exceptionally overemotional and literarily talentless 14-year-old girl.
I've run across that sort of thing quite frequently since I started playing around with Latin. In the Apostles' Creed Our Lord descendit ad infernos. No weaseling around there. But in the missal everybody reads from at Mass He doesn't do that at all.
All my life Our Lord was crucified between two thieves. Two common criminals. One day at Mass suddenly we were told that he was crucified between two revolutionaries.
Is that the smoke of Satan, or the smoke of Fidel's cigar? Or is there any difference?
Here's a schlocky translation of the Anima Christi:
> Soul of Christ, make me holy
> Body of Christ, be my salvation
> Blood of Christ, let me drink your wine
> Water flowing from the side of Christ, wash me clean
> Passion of Christ, strengthen me
> Kind Jesus, hear my prayer
> Hide me within your wounds
> And keep me close to you
> Defend me from the evil enemy
> And call me at the hour of my death
> To the fellowship of your saints
> That I might sing your praise with them
> for all eternity, Amen."
Anima Christi, sanctifica me.
Corpus Christi, salva me.
Sanguis Christi, inebria me.
Aqua lateris Christi, lava me.
Passio Christi, conforta me.
O bone Iesu, exaudi me.
Intra tua vulnera absconde me.
Ne permittas me separari a te.
Ab hoste maligno defende me.
In hora mortis meae voca me.
Et iube me venire ad te,
Ut cum Sanctis tuis laudem te
In saecula saeculorum.
Soul of Christ, sanctify me.
Body of Christ, save me. (Save me from my own sinful nature, save me from eternal damnation, save me from doing things that offend you, save me from the Evil One.)
Blood of Christ, inebriate me. (Make me drunk with Love of you, drunk with Your love, drunk with contemplation of Your Mercy, Your suffering, Your Sacrifice, Your Victory, Your Resurrection, Your Majesty and Glory.)
Water from the side of Christ, wash me. (Wash away my sins and sinfulness.)
Passion of Christ, strengthen me.
Good Jesus, hear me!
Within Your wounds hide me (From the Evils of Satan and the world)
And let me not be separated from You.
From the hosts of Evil defend me.
At the hour of my death call me and bid me come to You,
That together with Your saints I may praise You for all eternity. Amen
I really don't know why people today seem to have such a hard time with "Sanguis Christi, inebria me." Perhaps it's because mystical experiences and transports of rapture are thought by so many to be medieval and unsophisticated. In my humble estimation, this is a plea for religious ecstasy of a sort that can be likened to inebriation.
And above all, in Latin these prayers are *poems,* with rhyming and meter. They scan, they flow, they are art as well as prayer.
Just as good in English? Ask a Frenchman if Proust is "just as good" in English. Check out a Japanese "translation" of Shakespeare some time.
Translations are never "just as good" (In accordance with that well-known universal law, "If something is 'just as good,' it ain't.")
When there shall be found among you within any of thy gates, which the Lord thy God shall give thee, man or woman that do evil in the sight of the Lord thy God, and transgress his covenant,
3 So as to go and serve strange gods, and adore them, the sun and the moon, and all the host of heaven, which I have not commanded:
4 And this is told thee, and hearing it thou hast inquired diligently, (Inquisition) and found it to be true, and that the abomination is committed in Israel:
5 Thou shalt bring forth the man or the woman, who have committed that most wicked thing, to the gates of thy city, and they shall be stoned.
* We Christian Catholics were just, once again, following the Bible and Tradition. But, different times call for different responses. We are a kinder and gentler Church now :)
But, let's not neglect Moses in this discussion. As the First Inquisitor, in two days he killed more people than all the various Catholic Inquisitions combined. Moses ordered FAR MORE killed.
27 And he said to them: Thus saith the Lord God of Israel: Put every man his sword upon his thigh: go, and return from gate to gate through the midst of the camp, and let every man kill his brother, and friend, and neighbour. 28 And the sons of Levi did according to the words of Moses, and there were slain that day about three and twenty thousand men.
And Moses said to the judges of Israel: Let every man kill his neighbours, that have been initiated to Beelphegor.
9 And there were slain four and twenty thousand men
And Moses being angry with the chief officers of the army, the tribunes, and the centurions that were come from the battle,
15 Said: Why have you saved the women?
16 Are not these they, that deceived the children of Israel by the counsel of Balaam, and made you transgress against the Lord by the sin of Phogor, for which also the people was punished?
17 Therefore kill all that are of the male sex, even of the children: and put to death the women, that have carnally known men.
18 But the girls, and all the women that are virgins save for yourselves:
* Why is your enmity reserved solely for Christians?
Whether the Mass is said in Aramaic, Greek, Latin, English, Armenian, etc we shouldn't get (imo) too polemical about in what language mass should be said.
The Mass is about the action of Jesus as priest and victim and the language is secondary. We have always had one Mass; many Liturgues, riutes etc; but one Mass since the Last Supper
That is not intended to be a reference to something we do.
God will separate the chaff from the wheat, and they will burn in hell forever and ever.
That is not our job.
Please, give it up. It's so obvious you don't know what you are talking about.
Most of the Latin in the Traditional Latin Mass is not meant to be heard by the congregation.
The priest will say the first few words of the Prayer and you know where you are. "Credo in unum deum..." And you know, "We're at the Creed" His physical gestures state as much as the language he is praying in.
The Mass is not a Protestant service. You are a witness to an event, being presented in front of you. You don't even need a sermon for a Mass.
As far as dumbing it down in the vernacular goes, that is true. The French translation says God the Father and Jesus Christ are of the same nature instead of consubstantial. Nature and substance don't mean the same thing and there is an openness towards Arianism in the vernacular.
And as far as regulating the Bible. The current climate of nutjobs who run around spouting off nonsense about what they read in the Apocalypse is enough to warrant the Church's stance on approving translations and exegesis.
And, there are plenty of long necks in Salem Mass. that have nothing to do with the Catholic Church.
That's not a "Latin vs. English" problem; it's a "Latin vs. stupid ICEL translation" problem.
"Et cum spiritu tuo" translates, exactly, into English as "And with your spirit," or (if you prefer the familiar second-person, which doesn't exist in Latin) "And with thy spirit". (And "And with your spirit" is exactly how it used to be rendered in English translations of the Mass prior to 1970, and exactly how the Byzantine rite uses it today.)
It is not "And also with you", but ICEL (=Illiterate Crud in English Liturgy) wants you to think it is.
Oh C'mon now you're being silly. You're really laying the old canards on thick.
No, the Church never said this, but rather the bible should be taught by those with the appointed authority to do so, the Church.
Even Martin Luther regretted the whole private interpretation thing when the "commoners" used it as an excuse to attack and pillage the nobles. Not one of the founders of any Protestant religion wanted each individual commoner to interpret the bible for themselves, the "de"- formers wanted to claim the rightful authority of the Church for themselves, they wanted the commoners to believe their non authoritative, fallible, personal interpretation.
And burned John Hus alive.
Really you don't say? What a completely horrible thing. So unlike the warm and fuzzy man who started the religion you believe; who said this:
"Those who refuse to give up the Catholic Faith must be put to the sword." --John Calvin
You're making me lose any respect I had for you, not for all Calvinists, just you.
General Audience June 8, 2005. Pope Benedict's exegesis of Psalm 110
In sum, the Psalm invites us at the end to discover all the good things the Lord gives us every day. We see more easily the negative aspects of our life. The Psalm invites us to see the positive also, the many gifts we receive, and so find gratitude, as only a grateful heart can celebrate worthily the liturgy of thanksgiving, the Eucharist.
That can be done in English or Latin.
Servetus fled to Geneva because it was safer than going to the Catholic regions of Europe...
Cute Calvin quote, but no cite.
"Servetus fled to Geneva because it was safer than going to the Catholic regions of Europe..."
If I recall correctly, the trip to Geneva ultimately didn't prove too successful for him, either.
You said Pope Benedict has been a disappointment because
...much of the Church throughout the Western world is doing its own thing... so many Catholics regard abortion as OK, and their local churches support them in that view.
Are you saying that JPII left the Church in a mess?
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