Skip to comments.Catholic Analysis: Mariology is Biblical
Posted on 12/27/2005 8:38:08 AM PST by Teófilo
Folks, my blogger colleague, Oswald Sobrino of Catholic Analysis, has written a good essay regarding "Mariology," that is, the theological study and liturgical recognition of the place of Mary, the Mother of the Lord, the Theotokos, in the economy of salvation. It is entitled Mariology is Biblical. Here's an extract:
One of the great stumbling blocks for our Protestant brethren who are on the verge of crossing the Tiber, i.e., entering into full communion with the Catholic Church, is the great attention paid to the Mother of Jesus by Catholics. This hesitation is understandable: Protestantism is a reaction against Catholicism, and one of the reactions has been, historically, to exile the Mother of Jesus from salvation history. In recent times, some Protestants have sought to correct this strange exile of the Mother of God by looking back to the writings of the Church Fathers and to the early ecumenical councils, especially the fifth century Council of Ephesus. Yet, even Catholics can have a hard time responding to the insistent Protestant plea that to venerate Mary is to somehow detract from the one Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5).- I urge all of you to read the entire piece at Catholic Analysis.
The crux of the matter is that Mary's extraordinary mediation as Mother of Jesus derives from and is included in the unique mediatorship of Christ himself. What we ask our Protestant brethren to consider prayerfully, and, yes, quite biblically, is that the mediatorship of Christ is inclusive and admits of and even insists upon our participation. If we participate, as Paul did, then certainly the one whom the ecumenical Council of Ephesus termed the "Mother of God" or "God-bearer" in 431 A.D. does also. Interestingly, today, even some conservative evangelical Protestant scholars openly refer to Mary as "Mother of God" based on the significance they ascribe to the Council of Ephesus. They are discovering the riches of the faith preserved for them through the centuries preceding the Reformation by none other than the Catholic Church.
OH MY Goodness, am I a dork?!?
Now I see it. (slinks away horribly embarassed)
Over 90% of the religion forum is Catholic Threads. About 9% are Protestant and reformed threads. The Mormons used to post here on occasion, but they were generally mistreated by Catholics and Protestants alike.
Quite frankly I have never even seen a "Jewish Thread". I see a lot of Israel Threads but I suspect there are few, if any, Jewish Threads. Most of the time when the Protestants show up on a Catholic Thread it is because the Thread is a criticism of Protestant Doctrines or beliefs or a thread celebrating the conversion of some important protestant heretic.
Again, this is a public forum. In that sense there are no exclusive Catholic or exclusive Protestant threads. If you don't like people criticizing your beliefs and practices, then quit posting threads about your beliefs and practices. It's that simple. But it seems to me that whenever a critic of Catholic practices or doctrine makes a point, the response is generally to accuse the poster of being an anti-Catholic Bigot, which of course means that you are out of scriptural ammunition and you must therefore respond with personal adhominem attacks.
Most of the criticism of Catholic Practices and doctrines is backed up by the authority of scripture. Now you may have your own ways of interpreting that scripture, but most of your critics stand on the authority of scripture, so they are being honest and sincere in their assessment of your beliefs and practices. Quite frankly bowing before a statute and praying to some saint does, IMHO, look like idolatry. It may not "technically" be idolatry and I'm sure you have some tradition to mix with scripture to justify it, but frankly I find no scriptural justification for it and it looks like idolatry to me. So if I rely on scripture for my position and you claim that my position is "anti-Catholic" then perhaps your argument is not with me. Perhaps the scripture itself is "Anti-Catholic." Perhaps a reformation is in order.
Oh wait, we already had one.
It was your tacit accusation that I (or Buggman) was an Anti-Catholic Troll that got me started on this thread. I had simply posted a quick note to Buggman that this was probably a thread he should avoid. You couldn't leave it alone. Oh well.
I'm outa here. Please don't ping me back here.
Sorry you couldn't take the truth.
Semantics and you know it.
>>But the content is true enough.<<
You are looking stupider and stupider.
Well done! The most important instructions left to us!
>> Well done! The most important instructions left to us!<<
But to those whose Jesus is better than my Jesus, Mary is just some chick on the street, so the first words or the last words mean no more to them then my words right now.
Catholoic bashing, and Mary bashing within that, is the only persecution allowed. Even here on FR.
If people said abut Jews what they do about Catholic they would be banned.
>> Catholoic bashing, and Mary bashing within that, is the only persecution allowed. Even here on FR.
If people said abut Jews what they do about Catholic they would be banned.<<
That is the point I made to P-Marlowe, the "one who will not be pinged here" and was told, just as when we state facts of our doctrine, "Nope, not true because I just don't believe it."
It's amazing to me that the Anti-Catholics who would never dare be Anti-Jew don't even see it.
(want to be an Anti-Catholic Troll hunter?)
I'm an ex-Catholic but I still have respect for The Church and her adherents.
I really don't like the treatment it gets, especially here.
Well God Bless you!!!!!
That's my whole thing, you respect us, we'll respect you and all of us will be happy.
I don't get the superiority complex of some of these people!
Truer words were never spoken (typed?).
It was clearly God's intent to show that after being hailed by an evil detractor of God (the serpent) Eve chose to disobey God and take upon her the one banned fruit. She then bore this fruit to man bringing death to us all. Few would dispute Eve's role in these events and her role in our fallen state.
But many of those same people refuse to see the role of the new "Eve" in Mary. That after being hailed by an Angle of the Lord Mary chose to obey God and take upon her self our one hope Jesus. She then bore this fruit to man bringing life to us all. All of this through the Grace of God.
That we would sooner believe one woman's role in our condemnation than another in our salvation is pitiful.
>>For reals, yo. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is a very anti-Catholic place, and it's encouraged, if not merely tolerated by the Admins.<<
And this is why the Anti-Catholic troll hunters started. (Notice how the graphic never went up on this thread-it takes a lot to warrant it)
We got beat on all the time. We were expected to constantly defend our position from the point of view of Sola Scriptura, WHICH WE DON'T BELIEVE IN!!
When I realized that I read tons of threads from the Jewish FReepers and never had a single person ask them to defend their beliefs, it happened!
The only way to get these "Christians" to understand how classless they are being is to point it out. Like garlic to a vampire, they squirm when one focuses on it.
As I stated before, they get the same degree of polite from me that they pass out.
That's not what it went to, at least not originally. Personally, I have no problem with "mother of God" because I recognize that its adoptation goes to combating the Nestorian heresy. Mary was called the "Mother of God" in order to convey that Christ was not some kind of Siamese twin of divine and human, but that the two were intextricably linked. Mary was not just the mother of a man; she was the mother of God incarnate. She really and truly was the Mother of God.
Now, its not the Catholic's fault that the term became abused by idiots who don't understand their theology. No informed Christian could possibly believe that the Almighty was born from Mary. Trinitarianism remains intact in all but the most foolish minds.
>>My, My you are a paranoid lot <<
Same defense used when we state the MSM is liberal.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that no one is out to get you.
And your first post being this...
"You do Mary no favors by this idolatry." really is Biblical, right?
The statements here are, you Catholics are into idolotry.
We state, it is not that way, not in our hearts.
The return statement is "Well it looks like it. So it is."
All Conservatives are evil and want to starve children and seniors. Well it looks like it.
The original post was to anyone who was searching into the Catholic view of Mary. Protestants can do that. If you don't want to, why are you offended by it?
Way to turn the other cheek. All together now: "and they'll know we are christians by our love, by our love, yes they'll know we are Christians by our love. lol.
Screw you troll.
My friend, veneration of Mary is all over the Bible, if you know where to look, namely at the various references that have been posted on this thread. You just gave away the store.
You could have asked for clarification, rather than flying off the handle. Apparently your screen name is 100% accurate.
Intended or not, it was trollish. Doesn't your savior caution you against calling others fools?
Well perhaps you look at it differently than I.
From what I learned in Bible Study Foundation classes, the Matthew 5.38-41 passage is to have a person "stand in another's shoes" and see things from their point of view.
This is the reason why Christ put a limit on it, Seventy times seven to turn the other cheek.
Uh oh. I detected some sola scriptura in that repsonse.
Indeed I did. Come on people, don't take yourselves so seriously.
Sounds like a good starting point to me, with the proviso that honoring Mary will always be mandatory in the Church, but being devoted to her in whatever degree, is optional, but highly recommended.
>>Uh oh. I detected some sola scriptura in that repsonse.<<
Yup, I got over it.
Truly, it doesn't matter to me what way you want to have a relationship with God. I don't understand why it matter so much the way that Catholics do to some people.
But, Buggman, that's precisely what God himself did by by becoming incarnate as her Son. Scripture itself says that Christ returned to Nazareth and "was subject to them [that is, to Joseph and Mary]".
God was under Mary's authority, though probably not in the sense that you were thinking when you wrote your comment.
You could have asked for clarification, rather than flying off the handle. Apparently your screen name is 100% accurate.
>>Indeed I did. Come on people, don't take yourselves so seriously.<<
You haven't been around long enough to see how many times posters come onto a "Pope", "Mary" or "Rosary" thread to slam our beliefs.
Your response is exactly what we get from them. They attack, we are expected to forgive and forget. We are to always take the high road.
Talk to them as well as chastising us. That poster apologized for the tone but not for the statement that we practice idolotry. Is that correct in your eyes?
Not in this context.
I don't think the Ephesian Canons used any capitalization, because that grammatical device was not known at the time, so your views are still anathema. Mary is the Mother of God. We have no other God but God. If you believe otherwise, your views are of interest to antropologists but not to Christians. It is not a complicated canon.
suggest that if Mary had not been faithful, if it were not for Mary's part in the redemption, that Jesus would have been powerless to save the world.
The scripture tells us that Mary consented to the will of God, after asking further questions to make up her mind. Likewise, Eve consented to the will of Satan, after asking further questions to make up her mind. So, both women acted on their free will. This is the extent of Catholic teaching on the subject. We can speculate what would have happened if Eve did not take the fruit, or Mary did not consort with the Holy Ghost till Kingdom come; since there is no scripture to tell us anything, any non-contradictory view, including the views you cited, are valid. If you want to engage is extrascriptural speculation further, do so with whoever you cited "on this thread".
Mt. 5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemiesCtId>You've got to be the biggest phony on this forum.
[Some late manuscripts enemies, bless those who curse you,
do good to those hate you] and pray for those who persecute you,
71 posted on 12/27/2005 9:57:36 PM MST by Conservative til I die
How is the "log" in your eye?
They know the difference. Much as we like the idea of the BVM for bringing it down to our level where we can comprehend things, we know where the real power is.
Thanks for the link.
I actually agree with you about this.
I don't understand why it matter so much the way that Catholics do to some people.
Come on, Catholics come across as arrogant because they claim to have the "orthodox" belief, (the "right" belief) and most of those who do not share their positions are "Heretical" and in danger eternally. They (you) may or may not intend to come off like this but, in a nutshell, thats how its perceived by many.
**without Mary there would be no Christ. **
Indeed, she was the "Ark of the New Covenant".
>>Come on, Catholics come across as arrogant because they claim to have the "orthodox" belief, (the "right" belief) and most of those who do not share their positions are "Heretical" and in danger eternally. They (you) may or may not intend to come off like this but, in a nutshell, thats how its perceived by many.<<
And Protestants don't claim that they have the "right belief"? Then what is this about?
Not all Catholics are arrogant just as not all Protestants are militant haters of Catholic beliefs. If you paint all of us with a broad brush, how can you expect us not to do the same? And see how you put it "Perceived by many" Maybe they just don't love a Catholic. Maybe they don't know us, they only know what is said about us.
Ratzinger himself has a clue to the official stand on Protestants. You are our brothers in Christ. I'll see if I can find it.
Jas. 2:20 uses it in a similar context.
Hey Campion, I already addressed that point back in posts #49 and 51. As a human child, He was put under her authority. As the Resurrected Lord, she is back under His.
The Roman Catholic Church.
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