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Catholic Analysis: Mariology is Biblical
Vivificat! - A Catholic Blog of Commentary and Opinion ^ | 27 December 2005 | Teófilo

Posted on 12/27/2005 8:38:08 AM PST by Teófilo

Folks, my blogger colleague, Oswald Sobrino of Catholic Analysis, has written a good essay regarding "Mariology," that is, the theological study and liturgical recognition of the place of Mary, the Mother of the Lord, the Theotokos, in the economy of salvation. It is entitled Mariology is Biblical. Here's an extract:

Mater Ter Admirabilis - SchoenstattOne of the great stumbling blocks for our Protestant brethren who are on the verge of crossing the Tiber, i.e., entering into full communion with the Catholic Church, is the great attention paid to the Mother of Jesus by Catholics. This hesitation is understandable: Protestantism is a reaction against Catholicism, and one of the reactions has been, historically, to exile the Mother of Jesus from salvation history. In recent times, some Protestants have sought to correct this strange exile of the Mother of God by looking back to the writings of the Church Fathers and to the early ecumenical councils, especially the fifth century Council of Ephesus. Yet, even Catholics can have a hard time responding to the insistent Protestant plea that to venerate Mary is to somehow detract from the one Mediator between God and man, Jesus Christ (1 Timothy 2:5).

...

The crux of the matter is that Mary's extraordinary mediation as Mother of Jesus derives from and is included in the unique mediatorship of Christ himself. What we ask our Protestant brethren to consider prayerfully, and, yes, quite biblically, is that the mediatorship of Christ is inclusive and admits of and even insists upon our participation. If we participate, as Paul did, then certainly the one whom the ecumenical Council of Ephesus termed the "Mother of God" or "God-bearer" in 431 A.D. does also. Interestingly, today, even some conservative evangelical Protestant scholars openly refer to Mary as "Mother of God" based on the significance they ascribe to the Council of Ephesus. They are discovering the riches of the faith preserved for them through the centuries preceding the Reformation by none other than the Catholic Church.

- I urge all of you to read the entire piece at Catholic Analysis.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: mariology; prayingatajewishmama; theotokos; virginmary
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To: RobbyS

OH MY Goodness, am I a dork?!?

Now I see it. (slinks away horribly embarassed)


101 posted on 12/27/2005 11:02:04 PM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: netmilsmom; Buggman; xzins
Sorry if you don't like it but until Alouette or SJackson confirm that the same people are on the Jewish threads telling them that their doctrine is wrong, they are just Anti-Catholic.

Over 90% of the religion forum is Catholic Threads. About 9% are Protestant and reformed threads. The Mormons used to post here on occasion, but they were generally mistreated by Catholics and Protestants alike.

Quite frankly I have never even seen a "Jewish Thread". I see a lot of Israel Threads but I suspect there are few, if any, Jewish Threads. Most of the time when the Protestants show up on a Catholic Thread it is because the Thread is a criticism of Protestant Doctrines or beliefs or a thread celebrating the conversion of some important protestant heretic.

Again, this is a public forum. In that sense there are no exclusive Catholic or exclusive Protestant threads. If you don't like people criticizing your beliefs and practices, then quit posting threads about your beliefs and practices. It's that simple. But it seems to me that whenever a critic of Catholic practices or doctrine makes a point, the response is generally to accuse the poster of being an anti-Catholic Bigot, which of course means that you are out of scriptural ammunition and you must therefore respond with personal adhominem attacks.

Most of the criticism of Catholic Practices and doctrines is backed up by the authority of scripture. Now you may have your own ways of interpreting that scripture, but most of your critics stand on the authority of scripture, so they are being honest and sincere in their assessment of your beliefs and practices. Quite frankly bowing before a statute and praying to some saint does, IMHO, look like idolatry. It may not "technically" be idolatry and I'm sure you have some tradition to mix with scripture to justify it, but frankly I find no scriptural justification for it and it looks like idolatry to me. So if I rely on scripture for my position and you claim that my position is "anti-Catholic" then perhaps your argument is not with me. Perhaps the scripture itself is "Anti-Catholic." Perhaps a reformation is in order.

Oh wait, we already had one.

It was your tacit accusation that I (or Buggman) was an Anti-Catholic Troll that got me started on this thread. I had simply posted a quick note to Buggman that this was probably a thread he should avoid. You couldn't leave it alone. Oh well.

Nuff said.

I'm outa here. Please don't ping me back here.

Thank you.

Marlowe

102 posted on 12/27/2005 11:49:08 PM PST by P-Marlowe
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Sorry you couldn't take the truth.


103 posted on 12/28/2005 12:12:13 AM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: Hieronymus

Semantics and you know it.

warm regards.


104 posted on 12/28/2005 2:41:56 AM PST by vimto (Life isn't a dry run)
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To: Conservative til I die
Not aware of any mindless kneejerk - if you are referring to my first post - you might note that I apologized for it's intemperate phrasing. But the content is true enough.
105 posted on 12/28/2005 2:44:20 AM PST by vimto (Life isn't a dry run)
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To: freedumb2003
I'm not aware I have insulted anyone - unless you confuse a viewpoint with an insult, in which case continued debate with you would be futile.

Mary isn't appearing to anyone - never has. Psychological manifestations and maybe evil spirits set out to confused Catholics (and seems to have seceded). You will see what you want to see - you have highly suggestible people in your church just as we have in ours - it just expresses itself in different ways.

Mary is held in high regard by me as a Christian. She was singularly blessed. She was also a sinner saved by grace.

Kind regards.
106 posted on 12/28/2005 2:52:32 AM PST by vimto (Life isn't a dry run)
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To: P-Marlowe
you may have your own ways of interpreting that scripture, but most of your critics stand on the authority of scripture,

But YOPIOS says our interpretation is just as good as yours. Isn't that how it works?
107 posted on 12/28/2005 4:29:44 AM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: vimto

>>But the content is true enough.<<

You are looking stupider and stupider.


108 posted on 12/28/2005 4:41:30 AM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: netmilsmom
Do whatever he tells you

Well done! The most important instructions left to us!

109 posted on 12/28/2005 5:10:49 AM PST by freedumb2003 (American troops cannot be defeated. American Politicians can.)
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To: freedumb2003

>> Well done! The most important instructions left to us!<<

But to those whose Jesus is better than my Jesus, Mary is just some chick on the street, so the first words or the last words mean no more to them then my words right now.


110 posted on 12/28/2005 5:21:19 AM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: netmilsmom
But to those whose Jesus is better than my Jesus, Mary is just some chick on the street, so the first words or the last words mean no more to them then my words right now.

Catholoic bashing, and Mary bashing within that, is the only persecution allowed. Even here on FR.

If people said abut Jews what they do about Catholic they would be banned.

111 posted on 12/28/2005 5:25:03 AM PST by freedumb2003 (American troops cannot be defeated. American Politicians can.)
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To: freedumb2003

>> Catholoic bashing, and Mary bashing within that, is the only persecution allowed. Even here on FR.

If people said abut Jews what they do about Catholic they would be banned.<<

That is the point I made to P-Marlowe, the "one who will not be pinged here" and was told, just as when we state facts of our doctrine, "Nope, not true because I just don't believe it."
It's amazing to me that the Anti-Catholics who would never dare be Anti-Jew don't even see it.

(want to be an Anti-Catholic Troll hunter?)


112 posted on 12/28/2005 5:29:14 AM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: netmilsmom
(want to be an Anti-Catholic Troll hunter?)

I'm an ex-Catholic but I still have respect for The Church and her adherents.

I really don't like the treatment it gets, especially here.

113 posted on 12/28/2005 5:35:48 AM PST by freedumb2003 (American troops cannot be defeated. American Politicians can.)
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To: netmilsmom
But to those whose Jesus is better than my Jesus, Mary is just some chick on the street, so the first words or the last words mean no more to them then my words right now.

Actually, the impression that I get from some of the MYIBTYJ folks is that Mary was nothing more than a uterus for Zeus...er, God to use to sire His son.

Like Fr. Corapi says, if you can drill Mariology down to its pure, simple essence, it's this: If she's good enough for Jesus, she's good enough for us.
114 posted on 12/28/2005 5:36:05 AM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: freedumb2003
Catholoic bashing, and Mary bashing within that, is the only persecution allowed. Even here on FR.

For reals, yo. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is a very anti-Catholic place, and it's encouraged, if not merely tolerated by the Admins.
115 posted on 12/28/2005 5:37:25 AM PST by Conservative til I die
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To: freedumb2003

Well God Bless you!!!!!
That's my whole thing, you respect us, we'll respect you and all of us will be happy.

I don't get the superiority complex of some of these people!


116 posted on 12/28/2005 5:38:19 AM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: netmilsmom
That's my whole thing, you respect us, we'll respect you and all of us will be happy.

Truer words were never spoken (typed?).

117 posted on 12/28/2005 5:39:30 AM PST by freedumb2003 (American troops cannot be defeated. American Politicians can.)
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To: NYer
What I find strange is how few would deny Eve's role in what would be our condemnation yet waiver at Mary's role in our salvation. I guess it's because Eve's story is all laid out there in the front of the Bible. Even those who haven't read through the Old and New Testament have at least made it through those first few pages.

It was clearly God's intent to show that after being hailed by an evil detractor of God (the serpent) Eve chose to disobey God and take upon her the one banned fruit. She then bore this fruit to man bringing death to us all. Few would dispute Eve's role in these events and her role in our fallen state.

But many of those same people refuse to see the role of the new "Eve" in Mary. That after being hailed by an Angle of the Lord Mary chose to obey God and take upon her self our one hope Jesus. She then bore this fruit to man bringing life to us all. All of this through the Grace of God.

That we would sooner believe one woman's role in our condemnation than another in our salvation is pitiful.

118 posted on 12/28/2005 5:46:23 AM PST by avg_freeper (Gunga galunga. Gunga, gunga galunga)
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To: Conservative til I die

>>For reals, yo. I've said it before and I'll say it again, this is a very anti-Catholic place, and it's encouraged, if not merely tolerated by the Admins.<<

And this is why the Anti-Catholic troll hunters started. (Notice how the graphic never went up on this thread-it takes a lot to warrant it)
We got beat on all the time. We were expected to constantly defend our position from the point of view of Sola Scriptura, WHICH WE DON'T BELIEVE IN!!
When I realized that I read tons of threads from the Jewish FReepers and never had a single person ask them to defend their beliefs, it happened!
The only way to get these "Christians" to understand how classless they are being is to point it out. Like garlic to a vampire, they squirm when one focuses on it.

As I stated before, they get the same degree of polite from me that they pass out.


119 posted on 12/28/2005 5:58:52 AM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: Buggman
By calling Mary the "Mother of God" we put God under her authority.

That's not what it went to, at least not originally. Personally, I have no problem with "mother of God" because I recognize that its adoptation goes to combating the Nestorian heresy. Mary was called the "Mother of God" in order to convey that Christ was not some kind of Siamese twin of divine and human, but that the two were intextricably linked. Mary was not just the mother of a man; she was the mother of God incarnate. She really and truly was the Mother of God.

Now, its not the Catholic's fault that the term became abused by idiots who don't understand their theology. No informed Christian could possibly believe that the Almighty was born from Mary. Trinitarianism remains intact in all but the most foolish minds.

120 posted on 12/28/2005 6:15:00 AM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: Conservative til I die
My, My you are a paranoid lot - Helps keep religious cohesion and stops any one breaking ranks I guess. I've been on post designed to 'get the Prots'. Free speech means you get upset sometimes. get used to it and give thanks for democracy!
121 posted on 12/28/2005 7:01:26 AM PST by vimto (Life isn't a dry run)
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To: vimto

>>My, My you are a paranoid lot <<

Same defense used when we state the MSM is liberal.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean that no one is out to get you.


122 posted on 12/28/2005 7:09:45 AM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: netmilsmom
Nice one! I' cannot agree with you but hey - robust debate is what it is about!

But this post is about Maryology being biblical.

You must have expected solid reaction from those like me who are Biblical Christians. as I said the Authority of your Church alone is good enough for you - you don't need Biblical proofs!

Warmest regards and respect!
123 posted on 12/28/2005 7:31:25 AM PST by vimto (Life isn't a dry run)
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To: vimto

hehehe!
And your first post being this...
"You do Mary no favors by this idolatry." really is Biblical, right?

The statements here are, you Catholics are into idolotry.
We state, it is not that way, not in our hearts.

The return statement is "Well it looks like it. So it is."

Really?
All Conservatives are evil and want to starve children and seniors. Well it looks like it.

The original post was to anyone who was searching into the Catholic view of Mary. Protestants can do that. If you don't want to, why are you offended by it?


124 posted on 12/28/2005 7:46:15 AM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: netmilsmom
As I stated before, they get the same degree of polite from me that they pass out.<

Way to turn the other cheek. All together now: "and they'll know we are christians by our love, by our love, yes they'll know we are Christians by our love. lol.

125 posted on 12/28/2005 7:50:43 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: jude24
Trinitarianism remains intact in all but the most foolish minds.

Screw you troll.

126 posted on 12/28/2005 7:53:11 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Buggman
My friend, the Trinity is all over the Bible, if you know where to look.

My friend, veneration of Mary is all over the Bible, if you know where to look, namely at the various references that have been posted on this thread. You just gave away the store.

127 posted on 12/28/2005 8:06:23 AM PST by Dionysiusdecordealcis
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
That was not intended to be "trollish," but rather an admission that in the mind of foolish minds (i.e., popular piety), Trinitarian lines might be blurred.

You could have asked for clarification, rather than flying off the handle. Apparently your screen name is 100% accurate.

128 posted on 12/28/2005 8:12:29 AM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: jude24
That was not intended to be "trollish

Intended or not, it was trollish. Doesn't your savior caution you against calling others fools?

129 posted on 12/28/2005 8:17:06 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

Well perhaps you look at it differently than I.
From what I learned in Bible Study Foundation classes, the Matthew 5.38-41 passage is to have a person "stand in another's shoes" and see things from their point of view.
This is the reason why Christ put a limit on it, Seventy times seven to turn the other cheek.


130 posted on 12/28/2005 8:20:00 AM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: netmilsmom
From what I learned in Bible Study Foundation classes, the Matthew 5.38-41 passage is to have a person "stand in another's shoes" and see things from their point of view. This is the reason why Christ put a limit on it, Seventy times seven to turn the other cheek.

Uh oh. I detected some sola scriptura in that repsonse.

131 posted on 12/28/2005 8:22:21 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Mr. Lucky
I took his post #6 as an apology to Teofilo (and it appears Teofilo accepted it as such).

Indeed I did. Come on people, don't take yourselves so seriously.

-Theo

132 posted on 12/28/2005 8:30:21 AM PST by Teófilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Rippin
I have a favorite way of framing this issue that might be useful in keeping this discussion from degenerating to epithets. Let me know what you think.

Sounds like a good starting point to me, with the proviso that honoring Mary will always be mandatory in the Church, but being devoted to her in whatever degree, is optional, but highly recommended.

-Theo

133 posted on 12/28/2005 8:32:36 AM PST by Teófilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

>>Uh oh. I detected some sola scriptura in that repsonse.<<

Yup, I got over it.

Truly, it doesn't matter to me what way you want to have a relationship with God. I don't understand why it matter so much the way that Catholics do to some people.


134 posted on 12/28/2005 8:33:51 AM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: Buggman
Okay then, before I deal with the specifics of the article, let's have a little quiz: What is wrong with the following picture?

Nothing.

-Theo

135 posted on 12/28/2005 8:34:10 AM PST by Teófilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: jude24; Buggman
By calling Mary the "Mother of God" we put God under her authority.

But, Buggman, that's precisely what God himself did by by becoming incarnate as her Son. Scripture itself says that Christ returned to Nazareth and "was subject to them [that is, to Joseph and Mary]".

God was under Mary's authority, though probably not in the sense that you were thinking when you wrote your comment.

136 posted on 12/28/2005 8:36:59 AM PST by Campion ("I am so tired of you, liberal church in America" -- Mother Angelica, 1993)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
That was not intended to be "trollish," but rather an admission that in the mind of foolish minds (i.e., popular piety), Trinitarian lines might be blurred.

You could have asked for clarification, rather than flying off the handle. Apparently your screen name is 100% accurate.

137 posted on 12/28/2005 8:37:21 AM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: Teófilo

>>Indeed I did. Come on people, don't take yourselves so seriously.<<

You haven't been around long enough to see how many times posters come onto a "Pope", "Mary" or "Rosary" thread to slam our beliefs.

Your response is exactly what we get from them. They attack, we are expected to forgive and forget. We are to always take the high road.

Talk to them as well as chastising us. That poster apologized for the tone but not for the statement that we practice idolotry. Is that correct in your eyes?


138 posted on 12/28/2005 8:38:09 AM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
Doesn't your savior caution you against calling others fools?

Not in this context.

139 posted on 12/28/2005 8:38:53 AM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: P-Marlowe
Calling Mary the "mother of God" is a wholly different thing than calling her the MOTHER of God

I don't think the Ephesian Canons used any capitalization, because that grammatical device was not known at the time, so your views are still anathema. Mary is the Mother of God. We have no other God but God. If you believe otherwise, your views are of interest to antropologists but not to Christians. It is not a complicated canon.

suggest that if Mary had not been faithful, if it were not for Mary's part in the redemption, that Jesus would have been powerless to save the world.

The scripture tells us that Mary consented to the will of God, after asking further questions to make up her mind. Likewise, Eve consented to the will of Satan, after asking further questions to make up her mind. So, both women acted on their free will. This is the extent of Catholic teaching on the subject. We can speculate what would have happened if Eve did not take the fruit, or Mary did not consort with the Holy Ghost till Kingdom come; since there is no scripture to tell us anything, any non-contradictory view, including the views you cited, are valid. If you want to engage is extrascriptural speculation further, do so with whoever you cited "on this thread".

140 posted on 12/28/2005 8:41:49 AM PST by annalex
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To: Conservative til I die
XS>
Mt. 5:44 But I tell you: Love your enemies
[Some late manuscripts enemies, bless those who curse you,
do good to those hate you] and pray for those who persecute you,

CtId>You've got to be the biggest phony on this forum.

71 posted on 12/27/2005 9:57:36 PM MST by Conservative til I die

How is the "log" in your eye?

b'shem Y'shua

141 posted on 12/28/2005 8:42:54 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Trust in the LORD for ever, for the LORD, the LORD, is the Rock eternal. (Isaiah 26:4))
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To: XeniaSt
They seem to worship the created not the creator of the universe.

They know the difference. Much as we like the idea of the BVM for bringing it down to our level where we can comprehend things, we know where the real power is.

142 posted on 12/28/2005 8:45:23 AM PST by RightWhale (pas de lieu, Rhone que nous)
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To: netmilsmom

Thanks for the link.


143 posted on 12/28/2005 8:51:23 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: netmilsmom
Truly, it doesn't matter to me what way you want to have a relationship with God.

I actually agree with you about this.

I don't understand why it matter so much the way that Catholics do to some people.

Come on, Catholics come across as arrogant because they claim to have the "orthodox" belief, (the "right" belief) and most of those who do not share their positions are "Heretical" and in danger eternally. They (you) may or may not intend to come off like this but, in a nutshell, thats how its perceived by many.

144 posted on 12/28/2005 8:51:25 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: P-Marlowe

**without Mary there would be no Christ. **

Indeed, she was the "Ark of the New Covenant".


145 posted on 12/28/2005 8:53:17 AM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: jude24
Not in this context.

That's convenient.

146 posted on 12/28/2005 8:54:01 AM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

>>Come on, Catholics come across as arrogant because they claim to have the "orthodox" belief, (the "right" belief) and most of those who do not share their positions are "Heretical" and in danger eternally. They (you) may or may not intend to come off like this but, in a nutshell, thats how its perceived by many.<<

And Protestants don't claim that they have the "right belief"? Then what is this about?
Not all Catholics are arrogant just as not all Protestants are militant haters of Catholic beliefs. If you paint all of us with a broad brush, how can you expect us not to do the same? And see how you put it "Perceived by many" Maybe they just don't love a Catholic. Maybe they don't know us, they only know what is said about us.
Ratzinger himself has a clue to the official stand on Protestants. You are our brothers in Christ. I'll see if I can find it.


147 posted on 12/28/2005 9:00:52 AM PST by netmilsmom (God blessed me with a wonderful husband.)
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

Jas. 2:20 uses it in a similar context.


148 posted on 12/28/2005 9:01:34 AM PST by jude24 ("Thy law is written on the hearts of men, which iniquity itself effaces not." - St. Augustine)
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To: Campion

Hey Campion, I already addressed that point back in posts #49 and 51. As a human child, He was put under her authority. As the Resurrected Lord, she is back under His.


149 posted on 12/28/2005 9:14:27 AM PST by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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To: Mr. Lucky

The Roman Catholic Church.


150 posted on 12/28/2005 9:15:02 AM PST by Buggman (L'chaim b'Yeshua HaMashiach!)
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