Posted on 03/21/2012 7:21:07 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet
The campaign to extirpate our nation’s Confederate heritage is relentless. In 2007, Dixie College in St. George, Utah changed its name from the Rebels to the Red Storm and discontinued the use of the Confederate flag. The Confederate Air Force, an organization dedicated to preserving historic aircraft, is now the Commemorative Air Force.
The Unionists, both north and south, fighting for the US Constitution in the US Civil War were those on the correct side, from an historical viewpoint. Portraying the Revolution of 1776 as disposable and/or marching in some KKK rally only helps the Obama gang.
Good time to mention the outstanding free Hillsdale Constitution 101 course.
Previous FR links to Constitution 101.
Yes, some of my ancestors fought in the Confederate Army. And some of my ancestors were literally burned out of Northern Alabama during Reconstruction because they resisted the abuses of that occupation.
BUT, other of my ancestors were born in Texas during the Republic or Texas. That ancestor also fought in the CW and was captured and sent to prison in NY. After the War he walked from NY back to Texas.
I have been a history student most of my life. I do not like to read CW history. I have studied much military history, but the period of the CW has no appeal to me.
Do the GOP leadership hold southerners in contempt? Yes.
Do we distrust them? Yes, for the reason of past experience.
I want no part of a 3rd Party. But after we eject these Commies who run our nation, there will be a 3rd party unless the GOP leadership grows up. My suspicion is, they won’t.
The South lost the war, but every American lost the 10th amendment after it was all said and done. That was pretty much the trade off.
Keeping alive that “peculiar institution”. At its core the south (irrespective or their right to secede) was fighting to maintain a system that kept 4 million human beings enslaved. I am not sure such a system should be celebrated. It should be remembered and even discussed extensively. Individuals in the South can be admired for their good qualities and studied for better understanding. The stories of the battle and bravery of those who fought, and the pain of those who suffered can be remembered (Sherman’s brutal march to crush the South for example). As far as I am concerned flying a Southern flag is close to flying a 3rd Reich swastika flag.
Nathan Bedford Forrest has a huge statute south of Nashville. I like to think that statue is there to celebrate his remarkable skill as a soldier, and not the fact that he was a slave trader and one of the founders of the KKK.
For information I was born in Virginia and went to High School in Mississippi and lived in Tennessee for five years. I have also read Foote’s 3 Volume history of the Civil War twice along with dozens of other books on early U.S. history.
Wrong. The War was not primarily about slavery. If it had been they would have simply let the states go their own way. They did not.
No sane person today defends slavery. At the time, there were many southerners who hated it. But slavery still exists today, but it is less obvious, and still very damaging. It is redefined. Now it is the Federal Government who wishes to make slaves of us all.
The south was defeated. But never subjected. Those echoes still reverberate in Texas. Texans will not quietly become slaves to the nanny state this time either.
Free Men need not ask permission.
If you think that the Civil War was not about slavery, you need to read the secession declarations adopted by the various states. They make it quite clear that they were fighting for slavery.
i agree...economics and power was the motivation.
a nice writeup on it http://www.lewrockwell.com/rockwell/civilwar.html
the adams book he mentions was eye opening for me.
Of course it was about slavery. Every other consideration ever mentioned was adjunctive to the practice.
“The Confederate slavemasters were the worst kind of statists. “
Well that’s a new one; the proponents of State’s Rights and secession were the big ‘statists’- and the proponents of compulsory union and a vastly more powerful central government were what, exactly?
No, my FRiend, I do not need to read the declarations.
You simply will not understand what has taken 150 years to heal. The victors write history books.
Why do you think the Northern POLs hold the southern GOP voters in contempt? It is because they wish to be left alone to live their lives in peace. That is not acceptable for the POLs. Their life revolves around telling others what to do.
Capitalism is about freedom of action and that is being destroyed daily by the Federal Monster in DC.
I have been to Iowa many times. We have a lot in common with IA farmers here. Not with Iowa POLs.
Do you think you are more free today than you were as a child?
No, I did not think so.
Why is that happening?
Where do you get that statement? Created out of whole cloth?
Sometimes you just have to hoist the black flag and start cutting throats someone said...Heinlein I think?
We are not all one people now or ever. Nor are we only Republican and Democrat or Whig and Democrat or city or country or whatever the alliances call themselves today.
Take a quick read of........snip “An illuminating history of North America’s eleven rival cultural regions that explodes the red state-blue state myth.
North America was settled by people with distinct religious, political, and ethnographic characteristics, creating regional cultures that have been at odds with one another ever since. Subsequent immigrants didn’t confront or assimilate into an “American” or “Canadian” culture, but rather into one of the eleven distinct regional ones that spread over the continent each staking out mutually exclusive territory......illustrates and explains why “American” values vary sharply from one region to another. Woodard reveals how intranational differences have played a pivotal role at every point in the continent’s history, from the American Revolution and the Civil War to the tumultuous sixties and the “blue county/red county” maps of recent presidential elections. American Nations is a revolutionary and revelatory take on America’s myriad identities and how the conflicts between them have shaped our past and are molding our future.”
In here lay all the answers to many of your questions and arguments.
I view the Battle Flag as a war trophy and I can do anything I damn well want with it.....and I chose to fly it because I am the rebel this time. I had family on both sides and KNOW both were the losers as the sad state of our nation shows today.
The South should have freed the slaves and THEN declared independence as Longstreet says in Killer Angels. The CW is is all theater played against the background of today’s race baiters. Grant owned slaves until 1863.....Lee freed his in 1862. Jefferson Davis adopted a black son, Abe Lincoln wanted to ship them all back to Africa as they were in his mind too stupid to co-exist with whites.....tell me who was right? Both? Neither?
Some of the South seceded to protect their slave interests. However.....Virgina, Arkansas, Tennessee, and NC didn’t secede UNTIL April AFTER Lincoln called up troops to INVADE his own country. Again. Right? Wrong?
The telescope of history collapses men and events and almost always hides the truth with lies convenient to the age in which they are told.
Maybe he gets it from here; you’ll see a certain familiarity with the arguments we often see from the hard core South haters:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1861/10/25.htm
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1861/us-civil-war/index.htm
Maybe he gets it from here; you’ll see a certain familiarity with the arguments we often see from the hard core South haters:
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1861/10/25.htm
http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1861/us-civil-war/index.htm
Yes, the slavemasters were the worst kind of statists because they wanted to use the brute force of government to enforce human slavery.
All of the Founding Fathers, including George Washington, believed the Union to be perpetual. They did not favor a “vastly more powerful central government.” The Federal government was comparatively tiny until the 20th century.
BTW, the term “State’s Rights” was not much used until the segregation controversy of the 1950’s. The slavemasters were certainly not in favor of states rights. In fact, they wanted to forbid the states from outlawing slavery.
I simply do not want to discuss the subject.
It is impossible to convey to those not affected by the aftermath of the CW.
He has no ancestors who endured hardship and left their homes to move across 2 states to be left alone. To be left alone in a very harsh environment. Life was very difficult for those who settled here after that war, but far better than the subjection and corruption forced by the Radical Republican Federal Government.
There were no Republicans in Texas until the Left took over the Dems in the 1960’s. Texas is solid Republican now (not locally, too many die hards)
I have always been Republican, first Presidential ballot was cast for Richard Nixon.
Name a cited issue that wasn’t tied to the Particular Institution.
I had realtives on both sides and they all fought in the Trans Mississippi West and at the battle of Prairie Grove, against each other. Great family stories and I’ve managed to get records of my Confederate Great-great grandpa.
“Yes, the slavemasters were the worst kind of statists because they wanted to use the brute force of government to enforce human slavery.”
Evidently you have your own personal definition of ‘statist’ to suit your argument.
So, are you consistent enough to condemn George Washington as a statist? Two years before his death he tried to recover his slaves, Oney Judge and Hercules, who had run away while Washington was at the President’s House in Philadelphia.
“All of the Founding Fathers, including George Washington, believed the Union to be perpetual. “
Of course Founding Fathers such as Patrick Henry, George Mason, and Richard Henry Lee and the rest of the Anti Federalists didn’t believe any such thing. Their argument against ratification and consolidated government warned that it would destroy state sovereignty and lead to the destruction of freedom. And nothing in the Constitution states that the union is perpetual.
“BTW, the term “State’s Rights” was not much used until the segregation controversy of the 1950’s”
Which is a comment without merit since the philosophy of State’s Rights goes go back to the founding generation. The Virginia and Kentucky Resolves of 1798 penned by Madison and Jefferson are classic arguments in favor of state’s rights. The Nullification/ Tariff of Abominations controversy of 1832 was based in state’s rights. And John Calhoun’s defense of states rights beginning in 1840 played a major role in leading to secession. Claiming that the idea of State’s Rights wasn’t significant until 1950... you need to study more.
I’m an American. Not a “Northerner’’ or a “Yankee’’. I’m an American. What are you?
I’ll tell you what 2nd. I bloody sick and tired of “Rebs’’, ‘’Yankees’’ “Southerners’’ and “Northerners ‘’, I’m bloody sick and f**King tired of “Bonnie Blue,’’ “Dixie’’ and the bloody “Battle Hymn of the Republic’’ too!. I’ve been mixing it up here with Johnny Reb wanna-bes living in their parents basements and their love of the bloody’’ Stars and Bars’’ and to Hell with Old Glory. I’ve had my life threatened on Civil War threads here, I’ve been cussed and done my own share of cussing, Lord forgive me and I say ENOUGH!! And you know something? THEY”RE NOT MY ENEMY!! OBAMA IS!! The f**king war is over! One hundred and fifty years already, it’s OVER! Who really won, huh? Who won? We’re all in the same boat now, aren’t we? This little douche bag in The White House is going to have us ALL in chains and he’s laughing his ass off that we’re still at each others throats over this. The Johnny Reb wanna-be’s call me a ‘’socialist Lincoln butt-boy’’. An “Obama-lover’’ as if I voted or would EVER have voted for the little Marxist s.o.b! I HATE HIM!! Do we want war between the States again? OKay, fine. Only this time lets not march at each other North and South, but lets march North and South TOGETHER and head straight for DC, as AMERICANS AND THROW THE LITTLE BASTARD OUT!!! Sorry 2nd. This is nothing to do with you. Just had to get this off my chest. Been a long day for me and not a good one. Probably shouldn’t have said this but there it is.
True enough.
Of course, the South started the war as a pre-emptive strike against what it saw as a future existential threat to $3B worth of property, somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 of the value of all property in the South, including land, houses, etc.
What would we do today if someone threatened that kind of economic disruption to us? For purposes of comparison, the recent economic downturn resulted in a loss of property value of around 10%.
The power issue over which the war was fought was slaveowners' ultimate power over their "property." Slavery is at its root and core the ultimate antithesis of American values.
That this ultimate power was held by individuals rather than by the state as such is irrelevant. State power was, of course, required and used to ensure that the slaveowners retained this power.
Humans were never meant to have such power over other humans. The vast majority of us are incapable of exercising it wisely and fairly, and none of us has the moral right to do so. The moral principle by which we oppose expansion of federal power is exactly the same one that makes slavery repugnant to any real American.
The man who defines his own right to freedom in terms of denying that same freedom to others has no right to the proud name of American.
As a Southerner, you have to fight half the people here on FR over CW stuff.
I was born in MO, which was one of the Confederate states, or at least the Confederacy said it was. The state fought its own internal civil war, as well as a border war with KS during the larger war. I have ancestors who fought for the South, and others who fought for the Union.
Liberals would love nothing more than to tar all conservatives with support for the Confederacy and all its racist baggage. Racism was endemic in the whole country at the time, to be sure, but only the Confederacy proclaimed it to be its Cornerstone.
As long as Jim Rob allows, I will respond on such threads in such a way that no honest person reading the thread will be able to come away saying that all conservatives are Confed sympathizers.
As Grant said, Confederates fought with enormous bravery and honor. Unfortunately, the cause for which they fought was one of the worst in history.
Article I Section 9(4) - No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.
In other words, slavery can never be abolished. Not by the confederate government, not by the individual states.
This constitution was adopted on March 11, 1861. On February 19, 1861 Alexander II abolished serfdom in the Russian Empire - not, I might note, a bastion of progress in the 19th Century. Someone was going in the wrong direction, and it wasn't the Russians.
Protection of NE industry by tariff which was retaliated by European tariff on agricultural products.
Money talks. Did then too.
Like when re-elected the Commie Quisling residing at 1600 Penn. Ave. by Executive Order "nationalised" the Oil Industry? Yep, it was about money & property (horrible definition)
In 2007 Dixie College in St. George, Utah applied for State University status as part of an expansion effort which includes a campus in..Hurricane Utah.
What conservative principle would you cite that prevents them from changing their team name to the Red Storm?
Nice. Disagree with the neo-confeds and you’re labeled (or libeled - your pick) “hard core South hater” and further slandered with insinuations of being a marxist. All of which is the same as saying that you support the treasonous actions of the insurrectionists therefore you must be getting your information from NAMBLA.
So, are you a charter member?
Tariffs were cited by the seceding states, but subordinate or attendant to slavery. And with the south dominating both Congress and the White House for most of the years preceding the Civil War the best that could be said of it (or the worst against it) was that this was all part of the give & take between states and regions of the country and to say that tariffs were responsible for the insurrection would be tantamount to saying that they rebelled because they didn’t like the drapes.
Slavery, especially in the context of expansion into the territories was at the heart of the souths reason to rebel.
What's conservative about a Red Storm?
I thought at least you could have launched into a soliloquy about tradition and long times gone but not forgotten.
Thanks for playing anyway.
Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that that they should have been prevented from changing their name.
I'm too busy to re-fight the War of Southern Independence with you. If you're happy with political correctness, then so be it.
Sounds like that's their choice. Either the war was too painful a memory, or Southerners don't want to be typecast as Jubilation T. Cornpone Confederates.
And it makes sense, doesn't it? If you've got climate, new roads, low taxes, and less expensive housing, are you really going to want to identify your state with our bloodiest war?
But I suspect Pennsylvania presents Gettysburg as just one of many historical and scenic areas. Virginia does the same thing. Push Williamsburg, and people who have other historical interests will visit them as well.
One thing this guy doesn't mention, though. It's not 1890 or 1930 any more, not a question of the poor South and the arrogant rich Yankees. Some Southerners who harp on past poverty are pretty quick to put down Northern cities and states that they've outstripped economically.
Fortunately there are fewer LCL “Fergit, Hell!” types with each successive generation.
Howdy Cheburashka,
Re-read Mr. Longstreet’s fictional sequence of steps.....free the slaves THEN declare independence.
Then for kicks, read the book I suggested....The 11 Nations of North America....and the few others it mentions as well like Albion’s Seed.
The slave masters of the deep south were just one of three “nations” that seceded in 1860/1. Each national culture(the Tidewater Elite, parts of the Appalachians, and the Deep Southern) each seceded for its own reasons. Only the slave masters for slavery.
My mothers family in WV fought for the Reb’s purely because they hated meddling Yankees and still do. My father’s Unionist family in WV hid runaway slaves and smuggled in English manufacture from Canada via their hardware business to beat the tariffs.
The families lived 7 miles apart. There are a million similar stories.
Both sides were right and both were wrong. 600,000 died and we are all still struggling with the results.
Histories, like people, are never simple.
Za Rodinu ee svaboda!
In any case the confederate constitution was specifically crafted to make the abolition of slavery impossible.
NAMBLA? That must be a group you have on your mind for you to bring it up out of the blue like that. It fits you.
As for “hard core South haters” I didn’t mention any names. But the hit dog howls.
Exactly what I thought when you brought up marxists. The subject fits you perfectly.
By definition, "Founding Fathers" were those who wrote and then voted to ratify the new Constitution.
Those who voted against the Constitution were not Founding Fathers.
They were instead, as their political name accurately describes: "anti-Federalists".
Anti-Federalists had their say, they lost the vote, and a new "more perfect Union" was ratified to replace the old "perpetual" Articles of Confederation.
“By definition, “Founding Fathers” were those who wrote and then voted to ratify the new Constitution.
Those who voted against the Constitution were not Founding Fathers.”
Oh? So what are you, the world’s authority on the subject?
Well, sadly you’re not. In fact it’s evident you’re not even much of a student of the subject.
Here’s a definition a bit more impartial than your self-serving attempt at ‘begging the question’, a logical fallacy attractive to sloppy thinkers; note the use of “or” in the following definition, and if you don’t know why “or” is significant find someone to explain it to you:
“The Founding Fathers of the United States of America were political leaders and statesmen who participated in the American Revolution by creating the United States Declaration of Independence, taking part in the American Revolutionary War, establishing the United States Constitution, or by some other key contribution. “
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Founding_Fathers_of_the_United_States
In that article is a list of Founding Fathers. And, surprise surprise, the list includes George Mason, Patrick Henry, and Richard Henry Lee.
Now run along and find some thread where they like to indulge in make-believe, your material will at least fit in there.
Fits me perfectly? Hardly, I don’t subscribe to the Marx and Engel’s interpretation of the American Civil War.
I brought up Marx and Engels because they wrote extensively on the American Civil War, and their account is significant because it is virtually identical to the interpretation of Civil War history that many South-haters use today.
It’s an interesting question where South-haters get their interpretation. Maybe they stumble upon it all by themselves. More likely they absorb Marx and Engels as it filters through other historians. It’s not like the American Historical Association has had a shortage of marxists. Eric Foner being a classic example of one who writes on the Civil War.
The United States would have been far better served by holding every surviving Confederate officer accountable in the federal courts or military tribunals in the states of the rebellion, with punishment imposed according to the standards of the time.
The mistake of Reconstruction was in giving “The Lost Cause” any seeds or fertile soil in which to sprout. We'd be a far different and better nation now if the traitors had been dealt with properly.
Up yours troll, start crap somewhere else jerk.
Not to mention, one of its (three) posts claims Obama was born in Hawaii.
Right.
For later
Could this be FR’s favorite retread? Anti-birther and hates the Confederacy... Made 3 comments so far only.
We would be a far better nation if the Confederacy had kicked the ever loving sh*t out of the union. How’s this hopey changey thing working for you?
Retread? The zotted Non-Sequitur aka zotted Drennan Whyte aka zotted Kstater aka zotted SOJOCO????
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.