Skip to comments.Buell and Grant Surprise the Rebels at Shiloh
Posted on 04/07/2012 6:16:18 PM PDT by Upstate NY Guy
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Virginia tried that but the goon Lincoln had other plans. Sic semper tyrannis.
Don’t make false and treasonous comments, and we will be the best of friends.
Rather Virginia’s politicians and some deluded soldiers joined an illegal war against the US government. Thank goodness for good men like General Thomas who were able to put down the insurrection.
Thanks, I usually do.
In fact a quick google produced several sites with the same data.
One even showed that back in 2003, the USA was still number 3 in economic freedom.
There are no sites I know of which quantify "adherence to the Constitution", since presumably, how do you measure degrees of zero? ;-)
A blast of s**t, both incorrect and uncalled for, FRiend.
You must first remember that no -- zero, zip, nada -- Southern soldiers were killed by any Union forces until after the Confederacy formally declared war on the United States, on May 6, 1861.
Nor did Upper-South voters in North Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia ratify secession until after the Confederacy was officially at war with the United States.
So voters of those states knew they were going to war when they voted to secede and join the Confederacy.
War was their choice.
And large numbers voted against secession and war in those Upper-South states, most for reasons entirely related to their views on slavery -- they were anti-slavery and pro-Union.
So over 100,000 of those young (white) men served in the Union army -- a force as large as any that served at one time in Robert E. Lee's army.
In addition, over 200,000 men from border states of Maryland, Kentucky and Missouri served the Union, along with 150,000 Southern blacks.
Of all the people who served in the Civil War, those Southern-Union troops and their families doubtless suffered more than any others.
Again, my reference from post #21 is: William W. Freehling, The South Vs. The South : How Anti-Confederate Southerners Shaped the Course of the Civil War
Statist! That’s a laugh. It’s no use talking to you Reb. I’m as far from a statist there is. You’re like Alec Baldwin who was going to move if Bush got re-elected. I’m staying right here Reb, get used to it. “You deserve a better country’’ LOL! It’d be a better one with you in it for sure.
You got me laughing so hard I made a typo. This would be a better place without a-holes like you. “I deserve better’’. Just who the hell do you think you are anyway to make a statement like that? What did you ever do for this country?
I deserve countrymen like the original founders who were able to stand up to to central authority and knew when to speak out. Hell you can’t even contemplate secession as a viable alternative to socialism and despotism. This is not your fathers USA anymore. The republic is finished and states rights are dead. There are not many solutions at this point and non of the are political. Better wake the F up.
So, what, Bob was crossing his fingers when he swore allegiance to the United States? So it just didn't count? At any point in his military career, even in wartime, if his state government had whistled, he'd follow them, whatever the cost to the country he had taken an oath to protect and defend? I guess the country slept well at night knowing that its borders were protected or its military academy headed by someone who felt no lasting loyalty to his country.
Did the patriots of the Revolutionary era put their states above the country? Consider Washington's Farewell Address:
For this you have every inducement of sympathy and interest. Citizens, by birth or choice, of a common country, that country has a right to concentrate your affections. The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any appellation derived from local discriminations.
Lee's own father, a Revolutionary War hero, most assuredly didn't put state above country. As a reviewer of a biography of "Lighthorse Harry" Lee wrote, there was "no more ardent nationalist than Henry Lee, whose opinions on government and union grew out of his experiences as a soldier."
Those born on Southern soil who fought for the murdering, raping,looting and burning savages who laid waste the land that enabled their very existence were the bastard fathers of the bastard scalawags who were the treacherous running dogs of the avarice infested and hate infected Satan spawned carpetbaggers. I piss on their legacy and consider their progeny cursed--but in a nice way:).
So that's what your alias refers to. Happy Rain indeed.
If you really feel that way, you are beneath contempt.
Do you really, though?
You champion one system of very imperfect liberty -- a mix of liberty for some and oppression for others -- and you b*tch about another blend of freedom and unfreedom. Somehow you alone are better that that, and the rest of us aren't.
The world being what it is, and perfect liberty being an impossibility, a lot of people throughout history have felt that they deserved better with a lot more reason than you do now.
You may not have what you want or want what you have, but you don't deserve a better world than the rest of us, nor would you create a better world if you had your own way.
Nobody defends slavery.
My guess is 'ole happy rain isn't to offended with little barb of yours coming from one of the chief Free Republic Federal boot lickers.
The Confederacy was an imperfect system and so is our own. If you celebrate the Confederacy, don't act as though you are too good for the world of today.
Because you're decidedly not.
That kind of honor is an alien concept to any Damn Yankee.
Hmm. When she talked about “murdering, raping,looting and burning savages” I just assumed she meant rebs ;-)
Oh go piss up a rope Mr. “I don’t deserve’’. You never did anything to help anyone in your whole rotten life. Me? I was an adult literacy tutor for a few years. I was involved in a WW2 veterans group and took a number of these men to area schools to give their stories to school kids. Ever donate blood? I have. You’re nothing but ignorant, stupid ass loud mouth romancing an evil entity from a hundred and fifty years ago that took the most bloodiest and costliest war in our history to end. So you deserve better countrymen? What a joke. We all deserve better in this world and we, the decent people of it don’t deserve the likes of you.
I'm a pretty calm guy all the time.
Somebody that hates the Federal Government, but has loyalty to the citizens of their state, the republic and the Constitution, can that person be a patriotic American?
I don't hate the Federal Government... I just don't trust them. The same can be said about my state and local governments.
For the last 40+ years, we have allowed the Federal and State governments to run rampant with promising goodies while bloating bureaucracies, accumlating debt, and lining the pockets of politicians at all levels.
You live in some fantasy that says that a Confederate victory 150 years ago would have taken government off your back. That's a silly dream. Politicians, state, local and Federal will always be on your back (while pretending to only be offering a helping hand) as long as we allow them. It is no different North or South. The more money they have to work with, the more they will be on your back, and the more corrupt they will be.
What makes you think that States Governments care more about your rights than the Federal government?
Neither one gives a damn if we don't hold their feet to the fire. Some of the worst rights violations have been by the states... be it the old-time lynching or the modern no-knock raids.
I'm in favor of getting back to limited government and taking their money away from them. That way the thieves we now have in government will go back to some ordinary criminal activity instead of pretending they are public servants.
You want to throw Massachusetts out of the Union? Yes, they voted 62% for Obama last time. But the task is to explane to only 12% of the people in that state why they are mistaken!
I can guarantee you that you aren't going to do that by celebrating Jeff Davis and the Confederate Cause and advocating secession.
It makes FreeRepublic look bad, which is the only reason that I respond to you... I don't want your rants to go unchallenged. What you preach is not conservatism. It's not States Rights. It is anarchy.
I have an idea, the next time you donate blood tell them to take it all. :)
Secession is a viable concept that has it's own merits regardless of past attempts. Get it? The Confederate Cause? I defend the republic and little 'r' republican ideals.
Hey when I post the rebel flag do you get embarrassed?
"Rebellion is always an option" I think the FR founder uses that as a tag line. Does that embarrass you too?
As far as I know the raping was at a minimal by Yankee bushwackers, unless you include the livestock.
central_va: "As far as I know the raping was at a minimal by Yankee bushwackers, unless you include the livestock."
Late in the war, there was burning and looting on both sides -- Chambersburg, Pennsylvania comes to mind -- but it's hugely important to remember that compared to most any war you can think of, the US Civil War was fought mainly by gentlemen who did not deliberately assault civilians.
As for post-war scalawags and carpetbaggers, no one here has defended them, and all generally agree the South had a hard go of it for many years.
But a more neutral report describes scalawags as just another political party, no more or less corrupt than others:
"In South Carolina there were about 100,000 scalawags, or about 15% of the white population.
During its heyday, the Republican coalition attracted some wealthier white southerners, especially moderates favoring cooperation between open-minded Democrats and responsible Republicans.
Rubin shows that the collapse of the Republican coalition came from disturbing trends to corruption and factionalism that increasingly characterized the partys governance.
These failings disappointed Northern allies who abandoned the state Republicans in 1876 as the Democrats under Wade Hampton reasserted conservative control.
They used the threat of violence to cause many Republicans to stay quiet or switch to the Democrats...
"...Scalawags were denounced as corrupt by Redeemers.
The Dunning School of historians sympathized with the claims of the Democrats.
Agreeing with the Dunning School, Franklin said that the scalawags "must take at least part of the blame" for graft and corruption.
'But their most serious offense was to have been loyal to the Union during the Civil War or to have declared that they had been loyal and thereby to have enjoyed full citizenship during the period of Radical Reconstruction.'
"The Democrats alleged the scalawags to be financially and politically corrupt, and willing to support bad government because they profited personally.
One Alabama historian claimed: 'On economic matters scalawags and Democrats eagerly sought aid for economic development of projects in which they had an economic stake, and they exhibited few scruples in the methods used to push beneficial financial legislation through the Alabama legislature.
The quality of the bookkeeping habits of both Republicans and Democrats was equally notorious.'
However, historian Eric Foner argues there is not sufficient evidence that scalawags were any more or less corrupt than politicians of any era, including Redeemers."
We both know the entire "March to the Sea" and the South Carolina campaign were slash and burn operations. You lose credibility when you make statements like that. Ridiculous.
Yes, as I said, burning and looting on both sides.
Confirmed reports of assaults on civilians: very few.
Indeed no doubt, a careful study would show more assaults on Southern Union loyalists by Confederates than Union Army assaults on Confederate civilians.
That is a distortion of history and I won't let you get away with it. For example, during the invasion of PA Lee order his troops to PAY for everything they appropriated - no looting. There was no mis-conduct and it was not tolerated. The reason I know this is because I have researched history, both sides are not equally guilty. the difference is the South ordered ransacking to NOT to happen and when it did, which it did on a few occasions, it was punished. Any pillage incidents by the South was an anomaly and was not ordered or tolerated. The NORTH ordered pillaging and looting TO happen.
To tell the truth I wish the Southern Armies HAD acted like Sherman's bummers. The South played the gentleman to the North's rapist.
"To tell the truth I wish the Southern Armies HAD acted like Sherman's bummers. The South played the gentleman to the North's rapist."
I'm certain you well know that:
For example: Chambersburg, Pennsylvania was visited three times by Confederate armies:
From June 2428, 1863, much of the Army of Northern Virginia passed through Chambersburg en route to Carlisle and Gettysburg, and Robert E. Lee established his headquarters at a nearby farm."
'Remember Chambersburg' soon became a Union battle cry."
Note the 1862 kidnapping of "eight young colored men and boys". And what was their fate?
But also note that except for the unknown fate of those "young colored men and boys", we are only talking about burning and pillaging, not rape and murder.
The same is true of Northern armies in the Confederacy.
This is laughable. No reputable historian thinks there is any equivalence between the behaviors of the two opposing sides. You are really reaching here. Chambersburg was so memorable because it was an ANOMALY, the exception that proved the rule.
Well considering I have been here 10 years longer than you, I guess it takes a long-long time. ;~))
I don't hate the South, and no one has ever accused me of being a liberal. I'm just a guy who likes my history just like I like my whiskey, straight, and not doctored up with the ancestor worshiping fantasy stuff and nonsensical rants that you rely on.
Having exhausted his pitiful array of “arguments” cva has fallen back on calling anyone he disagrees with a liberal - the last resort of a loser.
In fact, the experience of Pennsylvania at Chambersburg and other towns was typical of every state which bordered the Confederacy.
From the beginning of the war, the Confederacy sent troops into every bordering state -- Maryland, Pennsylvania, Western Virginia, Kentucky, Missouri, Oklahoma, New Mexico and even distant states like Kansas and Colorado.
In every case, Confederate forces lived off the land and took what they needed from local populations.
"...October 10, 1862, Confederate Maj. Gen. J.E.B. Stuart, with 1800 cavalrymen, raided Chambersburg, destroying $250,000 of railroad property and taking 500 guns, hundreds of horses, and at least "eight young colored men and boys.""
"Capt. Sherod Hunter at the head of the Confederate Arizona Rangers, occupied southern Arizona during the spring of 1862.
He bore orders from Governor Baylor to lure the Apaches into Tucson for peace talks and exterminate the adults.
Hunter's frontiersmen spent most of their time expelling Union supporters and skirmishing with Federal troops, so the order was never enforced.
A detachment of Hunter's force traveled along the Overland Mail route and destroyed chaches of hay to prevent their use by Union forces..."
They both did it.
A distortion. You believe what you want. More reconstructed history nothing more, nothing less.
I agree...as far as I’m concerned this current government is our ultimate enemy....it makes me wonder what could have been under different circumstances.
There is absolute nothing wrong with Central’s complaint about things as they are now. The Civil War was mostly about attitudes and preference between North and South coupled with slavery issues. This war ended and the North won and things evolved into what most would consider a stronger nation.
However, this ‘nation’ has been under assault for decades by liberals and Democrats. They have hooked millions of descendants, new immigrants, indigenous citizens and, yes, illegals, on LARGESSE. Its history has been perverted and used for liberal purposes because the media and our education system are willing liars.
Likewise, accusing him/her of ‘living in a parent’s basement’ is an uncalled-for epithet. I don’t care where you are from and how long you’ve been here. Feelings about what this country has become and central_va doesn’t have to any-damned-where...if you want to shut him up, do it with logic, reason and real arguments.
You think you’ve got the lock on whats wrong with America? Buzz off pal. I’ve been called worse by central than anything I’ve ever launched at him. I’ve even had my life threatened here. Who ask you to fight his battles? He has no love of this nation and constantly waves that Stars and Bars in my face so I’ll tell you too, piss off.
You can piss off. You have no idea what he loves. Go tell your parents somebody called you out and sulk off to YOUR basement.
Listen stupid, for a guy who claims that he ‘’deserves a better country’’ he’s full of it. He comes to a conservative republican web-site venerating a bunch of Dixiecrats like Jefferson Davis, claims to be a patriot and waves the Stars and Bars in my face. I know what he loves, he’s made it clear several times before and it isn’t America or the Stars and Stripes so butt out.
Cleburne never married and had no children. It may have been the descendant of one of his siblings.
Must have been. I was a long time aqo. Maybe he said he was related to Cleburne. The Battle Of Helena was very important but didn’t get much press.
So that’s what you look like.
If anything, the North would've been flooded by illegal aliens from the South.
Works both ways, we wouldn't be constantly invaded by Northern Libtards who bring their communism with them.
Have you called the FBI about those constant threats? LOL.
“Libtards” who denied you your God-given right to own slaves? I can see why you are upset. That labor is cheap.
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