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Re:"Mal and Val - not Ann and the Old Man" Any evidence Valerie Sarruf is Obama's mom? (vanity)
Seizethecarp vanity commentary on Dr. Ron J. Polland youtube dated 08/07/11 ^ | August 1, 2012 | Seizethecarp (vanity)

Posted on 08/01/2012 11:18:33 AM PDT by Seizethecarp

"Meet The Parents....of alias Barack Obama. Black Sunni Muslim father and White Lebanese Christian mother. Born in the ME, raised in Indonesia, became BHO II in 1982." Dr. Ron J. Polland

The “Mal-Val” youtube video at the link was posted by FReeper Polarik (Dr. Ron Polland) in August of 2011 and while morphing the image of a woman named “Val” into an image of Obama, he insinuates that “Val” is Obama’s mom. One year later this youtube has only 1,150 views.

In July 2012, two FReepers associated the woman, “Val,” in Polarik’s Youtube with Lebanese actress Valerie Sarruf and have posted multiple images of her at various ages on FR eligibility threads. I am opening this thread to invite discussion of and links to any evidence that either supports or refutes a claim that Valerie Sarruf is Barack Obama’s mother, with or without Malcolm X being his father.

Where could Malcolm X and Valerie Sarruf have been in 1960 when baby Barry would have been conceived? Is there any evidence that Sarruf could have been pregnant and delivered a baby in 1961? In what country could the baby have been delivered? How and when could the alleged Mal-Val baby have been inserted into the identity and life narrative of the person we have come to know as Barack Hussein Obama?

Full disclosure: I refute categorically all of the Mal-Val narrative as wildly speculative and unsupported by any evidence that I have seen so far.

For several years now a shadowy coterie of FReepers styling themselves as “researchers” has gone onto nearly every FR eligibility thread to aggressively refute all evidence that Stanley Ann Dunham was Barack Obama’s mother. They have actually declared flat out that she was never in Hawaii before 1963, contrary to the voluminous evidence including INS FOIA documents!

Requests for links or any evidence that Stanley Ann is NOT the mom have been frequently met with abusive ad hominem attacks and accompanied by claims that ALL documentary evidence showing her to have been in Hawaii in 1960 and 1961 is forged, but no credible evidence of forgery has offered. I make this observation as a retired Certified Fraud Examiner and CPA.

For years the “researchers” had claimed mysteriously to have conclusive evidence that a different woman is Barry’s mom, but refused to reveal her name or any evidence other than her picture because the “researchers” claimed it would disappear from the net and/or from hard copy archives of the records. But this month, the “researchers” appear to have slipped up and revealed that Valerie Sarruf has been the woman whose identity they have been “protecting.” They have since attempted to walk back the revelation, but it is clear, IMO.

The “researchers” claim that they earnestly want to remove Obama from office. But wouldn’t revealing ALL EVIDENCE of a foreign mother and foreign birth (which they also claim) be the most logical approach to removing Obama rather than hiding the identity of this alternative mother for years while attacking FR threads that sincerely attempt to find out where Stanley Ann Dunham was when she gave birth to Barry?

In my opinion, the best evidence that Valerie Sarruf is NOT Barry’s mother is the mountain of evidence that Stanley Ann Dunham IS his mother, which the “researchers” have totally failed to refute.

Again, please use this thread for discussion of and links to any evidence that either supports or refutes a claim that Valerie Sarruf IS Barack Obama’s mother with or without Malcolm X being his father.


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: birther; certifigate; falsescent; fmd; fogbowdisinformation; frankmarshalldavis; fraudexaminer; kingjerkaboo; malcolmx; malval; mikezullo; moonbatbirther; moonbats; naturalborncitizen; obama; obamamama; obamamom; rabbittrails; sado; sarruf; seizethecarp; shinyobjects; valeriesarruf; zullo
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To: little jeremiah; ABrit

Yep. And I’m outa here. It’s sorta like an infinite number of monkeys with an infinite number of typewriters...of course there are images that have been tampered with, and the ‘family on the couch in Indonesia’ is a good example, you get ‘instant baby’ but the tampering is the result of placing people where they want them to be...because they weren’t there...


301 posted on 08/06/2012 5:39:00 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Fair Dinkum!)
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To: Fred Nerks; ABrit

I feel about the Trowbridge article quoted as you do; reminds of Lame Cherry but with better grammar. Just a whole lot of way over-cleverness that is so convoluted as to appear purposefully confusing. Maybe with a small (teeny) nugget of something true (or possibly) to lure people.


302 posted on 08/06/2012 5:49:51 PM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: little jeremiah
Yes, she stirs the pot with a lot of gibberish, gets a following, and now you can pay to view...

It was the image on page 18 of Muhammad Speaks that was interesting, and I imagine she got that lead from Erik Rush, probably part of his research for the book Negrophilia

Muhammad Speaks was the publication of NOI which grew considerably in circulation due MX's promotion.

303 posted on 08/06/2012 6:07:16 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Fair Dinkum!)
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To: Seizethecarp

You wrote: “The word “probable” that Rush correctly points to as not supporting a claim of fact referred to the assumption that the first John Bunch was the son of John Punch, the “first slave.” Rush does not question the African blood of the Bunches.

It is a fact that y-DNA testing proves that the Bunch family descendants of John Bunch and the next five male descendants of John Bunch all had in common African chromosome most probably originating from John Punch.

Between Barry and the last male Bunch ancestor, Nathaniel Bunch, are six generations of females who would NOT have African genes exclusive to the y-DNA chromosome, but who, none-the-less, would be descended from all of the male Bunches who did, as would Barry.”
******

But, but, but—the KEY to the entire narrative is that Barry has slave ancestry on his mother’s side, but that’s exactly where this unprofessional “assumption” lies, gumming up the works. All those other Bunches were FREE MEN.

You are the one who used the word probable, as in “more probable than not”, iirc, that Stanley Ann is Barry’s son and that both share those African genes.

Without comparing their DNA to these various Bunch families, we don’t even know what their relationship is to each other, much less to the Bunches.

There is NO evidence that John Punch, the so-called first slave, is the father of John BUNCH.

That there were “only” 100 men of African ancestry in that area is undocumented. If you accept that statement, though, these “researchers” then go on to state that of the 100, the only African around with a surname anything LIKE Bunch was John Punch.

From that specious connection, they ASSUME that John Bunch is the son of John Punch.

They ALSO ASSUME that John Punch’s wife was white and that’s how his “son” John Bunch ended up being FREE so that he could, in his early 20s, somehow end up OWNING 450 acres of prime tobacco-growing land. Want to bet this man owned slaves himself?

John Bunch got land grants! Was Virginia in the habit of giving land grants to half-black (maybe even all black) sons of INDENTURED SERVANTS FOR LIFE?!

They also make their assumption about Punch’s wife being white because, otherwise, his white great-grandchildren couldn’t marry whites themselves, which they did. But maybe there’s another explanation—like John Punch wasn’t their great-grandfather.

That’s a lot of assuming to hang their hats on and, as I said, professional genealogists (who aren’t obots) ought to know better. Think about it.

John Punch was an indentured servant FOR LIFE. What’s to say he even MARRIED and had children, much less married a white woman? A white woman who apparently could find no better prospect than a black “slave” for life. Is that likely? Were women a “precious commodity” in those days? Could they take their pick? I’m guessing yes.

What’s to say this John BUNCH didn’t arrive on a ship from England or anywhere else in the world, such as from another part of the New World? Maybe specifically to take advantage of those land grants.

Why would his father HAVE TO BE living in that area? Why would he HAVE TO BE born there? They don’t know when he was born, so they don’t know IF he was born in Virginia or even in the New World. That’s also why they don’t KNOW who his parents were.

It’s silly to assume that the only black man around with a name that sounded like Bunch MUST be his father! An honest researcher would think of all possibilities and not just the one that he or she is hoping to find.

Then there’s the problem that there were multiple John Bunches around and one of them even took that name when it wasn’t his name; he was a mulatto trying to pass himself off as a member of the family, apparently. (Or maybe a white John Bunch impregnated his black mother and he felt the name was his by right.)

Then there’re the many generations (you said six) of women supposedly descended from John Bunch (crucial potential break in the “line” at the Samuel level) who at any point might have had progeny who happened to have been fathered by someone other than a Bunch. It happened.

I have found it in my own family. In baptismal records that nobody else has seen because nobody’s bothered to dig them up in the little rural church where they can still be found. I’m not talking because the people who would be shocked to learn they’re not who they THINK they are, are still living.

Without documentation for EACH generation, such as baptismal records, marriage records, census records, wills, etc., they simply cannot say for certain that these Bunches, of the MANY Bunch families, are Stanley Ann Dunham’s ancestors.

So now we are back to square one, which is how a genealogist is supposed to begin: With the current generation and then backwards, step by step, with DOCUMENTATION for each generational link.

Why, it’s right there on Ancestry’s own website!

There’s NO documentary evidence that Stanley Ann Dunham is the mother of Barry. There’s a lot of bizarre circumstantial evidence that points some other way.

Yes, we have those INS records, which as usual, are oddly cropped; but they also state that the INS questioned whether BHO Sr. and Ann were really married, and they state that she was planning to give THAT child up for adoption. BHO Sr. does not state anywhere that he had a son by Ann Dunham. Not on those INS papers.

So where’s the proof that the adoption didn’t play out exactly that way? She disappeared. Where’s any proof that she really had that child with her when she was at college in Seattle, other than the “testimony” of a woman who was confused about the age of her own child, as if she couldn’t keep the story she was supposed to tell straight?

No documentation. Missing documentation. Destroyed documentation. Sealed documentation. Photoshopped pictures, missing baby pictures. None showing Barry with his mother and father, or even grandmother and grandfather, as a newborn.

There are photos of Maya as an infant, in her mother’s arms, in Madelyn’s arms. Where are the similar photos of Barry? He’s her first born, if you believe it. Would there not be MORE baby photos of him than of his sister? Show me a family where there aren’t 2 or 3 times more photos of the firstborn than of subsequent children.


304 posted on 08/06/2012 7:30:05 PM PDT by Greenperson
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To: Greenperson
I find the certification by the four Ancestry.com genealogists based on solid circumstantial evidence consisting of records and DNA to be persuasive when they concluded that Barry descended from the slave John Punch .

The FOIA INS documents are uncontested by any competent expert and confirm Stanley Ann to have been reported to the INS to be pregnant in April 1961 by U of HI officials presumably by BHO Sr. U of HI also reported that they married on Feb 2, 1961 and subsequently that she was intending to go to school at a university in WA.

Numerous subsequent newspaper, INS, passport and divorce documents confirm SADO as Barry's uncontested mom.

Absence of evidence (baby photos etc.) is not evidence of absence. The FIOA INS docs are solid, verifiable (can be forensically examined) evidence that Stanly Ann is absolutely Barry's mom.

There are no documents whatsoever that support a different mother for Barry that I have seen. No BC, passport, baby pics for a different mom for Barry, such as Valerie Sarruf available on the web that I have seen.

The only evidence missing is proof of where Stanley Ann was when she gave birth to Barry.

305 posted on 08/06/2012 8:35:56 PM PDT by Seizethecarp
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To: little jeremiah

“I read that a long time ago and it is too confusing to grasp. So MT is saying that every single photo of SAD “out there” is photoshopped to make her look completely different, except that one with practically a crew cut that looks like someone else entirely and looks very much like a boy.”

It’s not too difficult. There is not a single realistic image of SAD, and there is not a single unimpeachable document for SAD. No unimpeachable eyewitness recollections.

I’m really disappointed with what’s going on with this “research”. What I see is a debate between complete Obots like Siezethecarp and people who disagree with them, but are also not going anywhere with the “investigation” after a long long time. My fear is that no-one is actually what they appear. This is all smoke and mirrors to mislead the rest of us into thinking “something is being done”.

I’d like to see a whole lot more about who Obama’s parents actually were. Not seeing anything at the moment apart from videos on X and Sarruf morphing into Obama. After over 4 years, that’s not good enough.


306 posted on 08/06/2012 10:44:58 PM PDT by ABrit
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To: Seizethecarp; Greenperson
...The only evidence missing is proof of where Stanley Ann was when she gave birth to Barry.

The only evidence missing is proof she gave birth to zero ANYWHERE, and in the absence of a genuine, verified, long form birth certificate from Hawaii showing his date of birth, the name of his mother and father, the name of the hospital where he was born, the name of the doctor who delivered him...you don't know where he was born, who his parents were, or when he was born.

And that's the lord-dammit awful truth of it. No matter how often you use words like certified, solid cicumstantial evidence, persuasive, concluded, uncontested, competent, numerous subsequent, verifiable, forensically, absolutely...

...all you got is a myth and a forgery!

307 posted on 08/06/2012 10:53:45 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Fair Dinkum!)
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To: Fred Nerks

1.There is no credible claim that the FOIA INS docs were forged.

2. The HI newspaper birth announcements are in newspaper repositories around the US and there is no credible claim that they were tampered with. They indicate that a birth to Mr. and Mrs. BHO was registered in HI in August 1961 corroborating the FOIA INS docs.

Meanwhile, for the Mal-Val narrative we have bupkis!


308 posted on 08/06/2012 11:05:44 PM PDT by Seizethecarp
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To: ABrit

Don’t lose any sleep over it, the results of the research of our group, which some would like to see printed here so that our group all become sitting ducks, has been forwarded to where it will do more good than to be attacked here by armchair critics who joined FR years after we had forgotten more than they will ever learn or know.

Lazy people who do nothing but criticize, who have never produced any new information, posted a document or an image; in fact - done nothing but whinge and whine and denigrate...

Would you like some cheese with yours?


309 posted on 08/06/2012 11:08:40 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Fair Dinkum!)
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To: Seizethecarp

You have bupkis because, unlike some people I won’t name, we consider the results of our research to be too valuable and too sensitive to share with you - while the investigation of the leads we have provided is ongoing.

You and your cabal have done enough damage already. Many sources are being removed as a result, fortunately we did take copies.

And you never did answer the question I asked you; were you responsible for the removal of the article on the interview of Virginia Goeldner? You were so incensed each time I quoted it, and suddenly, it disappears.

We don’t trust you, you can demand answers all you like, you can bluster and threaten, and use BIG words and try to belittle, but nothing will ever persuade me to confide in you.

Bupkis to you from us.


310 posted on 08/06/2012 11:20:45 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Fair Dinkum!)
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To: Seizethecarp

1958 — while Stanley Ann works as an au pair in Chicago, CIA/MI6 agents Stanley Armour and Madelyn Payne Dunham are in Lebanon. They attend a meeting of the free-love cult Aetherius Society with Valerie Sarruuf, Malcolm X and others.

1959 — Bari Shabazz is born in Connecticut.

1960 - Stanley Ann Dunham impregnated by Frank Marshall Davis.

1961 - Anna Toughounti impregnated by Barak Obama Sr.

1961 - Barry Davis born in British Columbia.

1962 - Roman Obama born in Kenya.

1959-1966(?) - Communist Party members LeForge run a red-diaper nursery on Kalaianole Ave in Hawaii. Barry, Roman, and Bari all play together, and the parents stop by and grab one at random to raise in their preferred identity for the time being.


311 posted on 08/07/2012 12:19:20 AM PDT by Plummz (pro-constitution, anti-corruption)
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To: Fred Nerks

So your answer is “trust me, the cheques in the post”? And please don’t think I can be kept quiet by a little light abuse.

Jo Ann Newman (or Valerie Newman/Sarruf) wrote a tribute to Malcolm X, on 20 March 1965 in New York’s Amsterdam News,even though she wasn’t on the editorial staff.


312 posted on 08/07/2012 2:51:02 AM PDT by ABrit
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To: little jeremiah

A remembrance: Fred Newman, 1935-2011 from New York Amsterdam News

Was Fred Newman (Communist subversive) Valerie Newman Sarruf’s dad? Did he get her the job on the paper? Did she write the obituary for her lover Malcolm X?

http://www.amsterdamnews.com/religion/a-remembrance-fred-newman/article_1ec87044-be00-11e0-86ba-001cc4c03286.html


313 posted on 08/07/2012 3:36:37 AM PDT by ABrit
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To: Seizethecarp

The video of X is 2 hours, 10 minutes and 19 seconds.

Thanks. In the first minute, he rants about a Chinese guy not using the names Murphy, Bunch and Johnson. I can see someone randomly throwing out Murphy and Johnson but not Bunch. But then Johnson and Bunch together is getting even slimmer. The Won is such a loser that he’ll make up any relationships he can. Real and fantasy are the same so who knows the truth.


314 posted on 08/07/2012 4:50:21 AM PDT by bgill
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To: ABrit

Forgive me for jumping in here, I promise not to do it again...but I thought you might like to see this, you remember I’m sure that Martha also wrote she had found the Jo Ann Newman/Sarruf MX offspring in New York, living just around the corner from the Shabazz family...?

http://209.157.64.201/focus/news/2854528/posts?page=72#72

To: hamboy; Mortrey
Looks like Orly Taitz dug up the social security applications for “Bari M. Shabazz”, and found out his original name was Barrington H. Smith, an immigrant from Kingston Jamaica. Shabazz, due to its association with Malcom X, has got to be the most commonly adopted name for Nation of Islam converts.

http://www.orlytaitzesq.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/Bari-Shabazz-Kingston-Jamaica.pdf

72 posted on Monday, 5 March 2012 7:46:04 PM by Boogieman


Don’t thank me, one good turn deserves another.


315 posted on 08/07/2012 4:58:33 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (Fair Dinkum!)
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To: Plummz

Well, when you lay it all out like that, one thing becomes very clear! Just look at the documentary evidence in support of these claims! Oh, wait...


316 posted on 08/07/2012 7:40:11 AM PDT by Seizethecarp
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To: Fred Nerks

Didn’t Malcolm X have West Indian roots?
The cards are interesting. Was Bari Shabazz born to Val on 28th October 1959 in the West Indies? Just about the right date for Obama’s real age.
Got first New York card in 1972, changed his name back to his birth name April 9th 1980. How likely is it that another 21 year old person of West Indian origin changed his name age 21 to Bari M Shabazz? How many others were there if that was really common?

Hawaii: Bari Shabazz with New York driving license (spooky that) has his charge quashed by prosecutor years later:

From Mario Puzo

Ms. Trowbridge has found that the Social Security Death Index shows: “SHABAZZ, B M 28 Oct 1959 Aug 1994 (V) 34 (PE) (none specified) New York 084-54-5926.” From this, one would think that Bâri died in August 1994. But no, Ms. Trowbridge informs that only his identity was made “dead.” The real person continued to live and that person became “Barack Hussein Obama II.” Note how she explains that the “death” of Bâri was only reported by someone (“V” or “Verified”) and that the person did not present any valid death certificate (“P” or “Proof).

What’s more Ms. Trowbridge explains that “[o]nce in the federal system, the [death] record was flagged as ‘PE’, meaning that an inconsistency exists between what was reported and what was recorded in the government’s files.”

Finally, and the most shocking part of her report is that Ms. Trowbridge contends that Bâri M. Shabazz is the biological son of Malcolm X. Hence, if Barack Hussein Obama II is the same person as Bâri M. Shabazz, that would make putative President Obama the biological son of Malcolm X.

On November 4, 2011, an anonymous source emailed me something very interesting. To substantiate the content of the email, the writer directed me to go to a web site of the Judiciary for the State of Hawaii and to do a search of cases that have been disposed of by that State’s traffic courts. The anonymous source had done just that and so the person provided me with the information which that traffic court shows on its web site.

I did go to the Hawaii traffic court’s web site which is called eCourt Kokua and I was eventually able to confirm the information that the anonymous source sent me. Access to the court’s web site may be gained by going to

jimspss1.courts.state.hi.us:8080/eCourt/ECC/ECCDisclaimer.iface;jsessionid=FDFF513AA90109AC4375A7CBE7C8AF36.

Once at the site, click “Agree” to the terms and conditions. Then click, “Search for case details by case ID or citation number.” Once there, enter at the prompt, Case ID or Citation Number(*): 1193041MO and hit Search.” The following report appears:

What do these reports say and what questions does they raise? The Case ID is 1193041 MO. The name of the case is State v. Bari Shabazz which was a non-jury case. The case is characterized as a “Traffic Crime,” with a “REPORT number W50100.” The offense occurred on March 12, 1982. The charging police officer is Duane Masayuki Espinueva. The event is characterized as an “Accident Major.” The charge was driving without a valid driver’s license. The case was first filed on Tuesday, March 16, 1982, in the First Circuit, located at Kane’Ohe Division. I checked and this court is located at
45-939 Pookela Street, Kaneohe, HI 96744
. The case was continued to April 5, 1982.

The record also shows that Bari Shabazz was supposed to be arraigned and enter a plea on April 5, 1982, at 8:30 a.m., in Kane’ohe Traffic Court, Courtroom B, at the Kane’ohe Division. The case was continued to May 5, 1982.

On May 5, 1982, at 8:00 a.m., Bari Shabazz was supposed to again be arraigned and enter his plea in the same court room. He apparently did not appear and so the court issued a bench warrant on May 5, 1982, bearing number “BWO 050582.” It appears as though the court set bail at $25.00. The record also shows the entry of “HONDA,” maybe meaning that Bari Shabazz was driving a Honda or that the prosecutor’s name was “HONDA.” The next entry is for May 5, 1982, at 8:30 a.m. The court ordered the “AP” (maybe meaning accused person) to show proof of “NEW YORK DRIVER’S LICENSE.”

The report then shows that the prosecutor on April 9, 2003, filed an ex parte motion to recall the bench warrant and announced on the record “nolle prosequi.” This is a Latin phrase which is formally entered into a court record which means that the prosecutor in a criminal case “will no further prosecute” the case. The motion was listed as “NP [nolle prosequi] 040903.” So, the charge was dismissed upon the prosecutor’s ex parte “Nolle Prosequi” motion made on April 9, 2003. “Ex parte” means that only one side made the application which in this case was the prosecutor.

The final entry was for October 30, 2005, at 8:00 a.m., when the court noted that a $-0- balance was owed, but said “Pls check.”

This information raises the following questions:

1. Is the Bari Shabazz named in this traffic court report the same person Ms. Trowbridge calls “Bâri M. Shabazz” in her report and who is listed as “B M Shabazz” in the Social Security Death Index? If it is the same person, then that puts New Yorker Bâri M. Shabazz in Honolulu County, Hawaii, on March 12, 1982. Using a date of birth of October 28, 1959, this would have made Bâri M. Shabazz 22 years old at the time that he had this major automobile accident in Honolulu County.

2. The accident is characterized as a major accident. Chances are that Bari Shabazz and/or any passenger was taken to a local hospital in Honolulu County due to his/their injuries. If Bari Shabazz suffered any major injuries or laceration, the physical signs of those injuries and/or lacerations could still be present somewhere on his body if he is still alive.

3. Bari Shabazz was charged with driving without a driver’s license. The court ordered him to show proof of his New York driver’s license. Hence, Bari Shabazz must have told the charging police officer or the court that he did have a driver’s license and that it was one issued by the State of New York. Hence, Bari Shabazz must have been a resident of the State of New York. Note that Ms. Trowbridge said that Bâri M. Shabazz was born in New York City. Also, what was Bari Shabazz doing driving in Hawaii with what should have been a New York driver’s license? Was he now living in Hawaii? Was he there on vacation? Was he there visiting family or friends? Was he going to school there?

4. On April 9, 2003, the prosecutor filed a motion to recall the bench warrant, to terminate prosecution, and close the case. Why would this case come to the attention of some local prosecutor 21 years following the initial violation of March 12, 1982? A local prosecutor does not just go looking for cases that are 21 years old and file motions to dismiss those cases. Someone must have asked that local prosecutor to dismiss the case so that the arrest warrant was cleared from the court’s and nation’s computer system.

5. Ms. Trowbridge shows that Bâri M. Shabazz, according to the Social Security Death Index, died in August 1994. If Bâri M. Shabazz is the same person as is listed in this Hawaii auto accident as Bari Shabazz, why would someone care to recall his arrest warrant on April 9, 2003 or almost 9 years after his death? Surely, it could not be Bari M. Shabazz who was interested since he had been dead since 1994. On the other hand, if he was not dead he would be interested.

6. On October 30, 2005, or 23 years following the date of the accident of March 12, 1982, the court again re-visits the case of Bari Shabazz, noting that he did not owe the court any money but to “Pls. check.” Why would the court again concern itself with this case on that date, especially if Bari Shabazz was dead since 1994?

7. So, is the Bari Shabazz named in this Hawaii traffic court report the same person Ms. Trowbridge calls “Bâri M. Shabazz” in her report and who is listed as “B M Shabazz” in the Social Security Death Index? That question surely merits an investigation. If he is, then that puts the New-York-born Bâri M. Shabazz in Honolulu County, Hawaii, the alleged birth place and once place of residence of putative President, Barack Hussein Obama II. Given what Ms. Trowbridge has concluded in her report, that is a circumstantial piece of evidence that is surely worth investigating. What also supports Ms. Trowbridge’s position that Bâri M. Shabazz really did not die in August 1994 and that he is still alive as Barack Hussein Obama II is that the traffic court in Hawaii was still acting on the Bari Shabazz traffic case 9 and 11 years after the alleged death in August 1994 of Bâri M. Shabazz. What needs to be investigated is why the local prosecutor and court took those actions so many years after the traffic accident and at whose behest.

8. Finally, when there is an auto accident, the police do a detailed accident report. That report includes the name, addresses, date of birth, and social security number of the person involved in the accident who is charged for that accident. The driver’s license number is also included if that license is produced or otherwise verified. A physical description of the defendant is also included. The make of auto, including the year made and VIN number are also included, along with statements of witnesses. There could be a photograph of the defendant in the police record. A thorough investigation of this matter would surely include searching the police record in Honolulu County for this report so that this information may be examined and evaluated.

http://puzo1.blogspot.co.uk/2011/11/is-putative-president-barack-hussein.html


317 posted on 08/07/2012 7:57:32 AM PDT by ABrit
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To: Fred Nerks
“And you never did answer the question I asked you; were you responsible for the removal of the article on the interview of Virginia Goeldner? You were so incensed each time I quoted it, and suddenly, it disappears.”

I have never removed anything from the internet that wasn't mine! In fact I was the one who found and fought to preserve the dual-date Kenyan calendar date format on the Wiki page which debunked a claim that the CPGH BC must have been forged because it had the wrong date formats next to the signatures.

My expertise is as a former CPA and Certified Fraud Examiner, not as a technical geek capable of removing stuff from the web.

Incensed? That story was not in the least bit credible and was refuted by other stories and interviews given by the very old Virginia who was very remote from her half-brother's family. She was 20 years younger than her brother Stanley Armour.

See:

“The President’s Family: Meet Virginia and Cecil Goeldner”

http://www.tulsatoday.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1055:the-presidents-family-meet-virginia-and-cecil-goeldner&catid=61:national&Itemid=109

“One of the last remaining relatives in the President immediate family circle on his mother's side, Virginia is the half-sister to Stanley, President Obama grandfather, who helped to raise him.

“Background information on the family is offered. Stanley and Virginia had different mothers, were born 20 years apart, had two other siblings and were raised in Kansas, the place where Virginia met her husband, the only child of Cecil and Hazel Goeldner, a farm family.”

“Cecil didn't realize that his wife actually made money with her work until he came home one day to find she had purchased tickets to Hawaii. They were all going to visit her brother Stanley, his wife, Madelyn, Maya, and Barack.

“When they arrived, everyone was there, except for Barack, who was away in school at Columbia. Throughout the years, Stanley and Virginia kept in touch via letters and telephone calls. He would write to her of Barack and Maya, often stating how proud he was of them both. In turn, she would write to him about her children.”

“They also participated in a private family inauguration party, had a reunion with her brother Ralph Dunham, and enjoyed a tour of the Capitol building with her great nephew Ian Dunham.

“Virginia recalls how it felt watching her great nephew step out of his limousine during the Inaugural parade.”

318 posted on 08/07/2012 8:02:37 AM PDT by Seizethecarp
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To: ABrit

Oh, and if his birth surname was Hutton-Smith, then that would be too long to fit under the blacked out bit for fathers name.


319 posted on 08/07/2012 8:16:43 AM PDT by ABrit
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To: ABrit

Maybe Val checked into the Maternity Ward as Hutton, and Malcolm X as Smith. Offspring became Hutton-Smith? In UK you don’t have to prove your ID as birth parent. Case closed.


320 posted on 08/07/2012 8:30:54 AM PDT by ABrit
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To: Fred Nerks

” . . . forwarded to where it will do more good . . . “

I do hope that foreshadows an October surprise.


321 posted on 08/07/2012 8:42:26 AM PDT by Jedidah
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To: ABrit

Hmm Only one Bari M Shabazz listed for New York. Not so common a name as was suggested......

http://www.peoplefinders.com/search/preview.aspx?searchtype=people-name&item-id=OP-1238373119&fn=bari&mn=&ln=shabazz&city=New%20York&state=NY&age=&dobmm=&dobdd=&doby=


322 posted on 08/07/2012 9:52:08 AM PDT by ABrit
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To: ABrit

Oops, my bad surname is just plain Smith. That would fit under the blacked out fathers name. No matter. Malcolm chose the name Smith to hide his son. Figures.


323 posted on 08/07/2012 9:57:17 AM PDT by ABrit
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To: Seizethecarp; Berlin_Freeper; Hotlanta Mike; Silentgypsy; repubmom; HANG THE EXPENSE; Nepeta; ...

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


324 posted on 08/07/2012 11:18:09 AM PDT by Brown Deer (Pray for 0bama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: Fred Nerks
Do you think these three signatures were all done by the same person?:
Image and video hosting by TinyPic
325 posted on 08/07/2012 11:28:50 AM PDT by LivingNet
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To: Seizethecarp
...when they concluded that Barry descended from the slave John Punch.

You are distorting the facts. That was not their conclusion. It was only a sugggestion. So, why does a person who claims to "try to avoid declarative statements of fact for which I have no evidence", post a lie such as that?

btw, John Punch Wasn't the First Slave in America, as stated by those same researchers.
326 posted on 08/07/2012 11:31:47 AM PDT by Brown Deer (Pray for 0bama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: Seizethecarp; Fred Nerks; butterdezillion
2. The HI newspaper birth announcements are in newspaper repositories around the US and there is no credible claim that they were tampered with. They indicate that a birth to Mr. and Mrs. BHO was registered in HI in August 1961 corroborating the FOIA INS docs.

Seize is a disgusting liar.

327 posted on 08/07/2012 11:32:00 AM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: LivingNet

How close together in time are the signatures? And what kind of documents are they on?

To my untrained eye they look as though they could easily have been written by the same hand.


328 posted on 08/07/2012 11:45:42 AM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: Brown Deer

FReepers can judge for themselves whether Ancestry.com made a declarative sentence, with which I agree after reviewing their substantial circumstancial evidence (circumstantial evidence can be conclusive. Remember that Scott Peterson was convicted on circumstantial evidence and sentenced to death.):

http://www.ancestry.com/obama

“We explored thousands of historical documents in our research and discovered that John Punch, the first African enslaved for life in America, was the 11th great-grandfather of President Barack Obama.”


329 posted on 08/07/2012 11:53:08 AM PDT by Seizethecarp
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To: Brown Deer
“Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.”

Regarding the Mal-Val narrative, absence of evidence doesn't by itself provide evidence that the Mal-Val narrative is invalid, only that it is not supported by evidence.

Regarding the BHO Sr.-SADO narrative, there is substantial contemporaneous cross-corroborating evidence which supports SADO as Barry's mom and BHO Sr. as the most likely sperm donor, but I have seen no evidence establishing conclusively where SADO was when she gave birth. I have seen a lot of claims that cross-corroborate that SADO was most likely in Kenya when she gave birth.

Absence of evidence in the nature of lack of baby pictures prior to the zoo picture taken with the mom (which I regard as genuine) or grandparents does not prove that such pictures were never taken and is not evidence of absence (evidence of nonexistence) of such pictures.

330 posted on 08/07/2012 12:02:30 PM PDT by Seizethecarp
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To: Seizethecarp
John Punch, the first African enslaved for life in America

You have proof of that, liar?
331 posted on 08/07/2012 12:02:30 PM PDT by Brown Deer (Pray for 0bama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: Seizethecarp

Absence of evidence that you are not 0bama’s gay lover, then you must indeed be 0bama’s gay lover. ;-)


332 posted on 08/07/2012 12:06:10 PM PDT by Brown Deer (Pray for 0bama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: little jeremiah

Seize is having a seizure. His flowery diversionary codswallop has stopped.


333 posted on 08/07/2012 12:14:14 PM PDT by ABrit
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To: Brown Deer
From the family research pdf link at the Ancestry.com/Obama, below is the official, certified conclusion of four genealogists. Courts rely on competent expert witnesses to form and state expert opinions, and so do I, when persuasive:

http://www.ancestry.com/obama

Conclusion: The Bunch Progenitor and Immigrant

Due to the destruction of records, no one can definitively prove or disprove the conclusion that John Punch was President Obama’s immigrant ancestor. One can only come to the most logical conclusion based on the evidence that does survive and compare that conclusion to possible alternative explanations. Parsimony is the first basis that should be used to determine a final conclusion.

Research was conducted with the highest standards, exhausting what has survived, properly interpreting it in the light of the law, correlating the whole, and resolving conflicting data. There is no substitute for the expertise decades of experience working with the same families and records in this period provides. Short of finding John Punch’s body, digging it up and conducting yDNA tests, one could never be 100 percent certain of relationship.

Of what can research be absolutely certain? It is certain that Paul Bunch and John Bunch II are brothers who had a father of Sub-Saharan heritage who resided in Virginia in the 1650s. It is also certain that the Virginia Bunch progenitor was among the first Africans who settled in the Virginia colony,64 and was among the first hundred or so Africans brought to the shores of Virginia.

Taking the whole into account, exhaustive research in surviving records justifies a conclusion that John Punch was the progenitor of the Bunch family. He is the only known African man of that time and place with a name in any way equivalent to Bunch, an extraordinarily rare surname in England and America. He lived in the same locale as Paul and John Bunch II at a time the African-American population was extremely small. It just happens that he is also the first known African-American male sentenced to servitude for life. Only history could assert such irony in a profoundly powerful way—that the first African-American President, Barack Obama, would also be the 11th great-grandson of the first African to be enslaved for life in America.

334 posted on 08/07/2012 12:15:48 PM PDT by Seizethecarp
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To: Seizethecarp; Fred Nerks
MORE GOELDNER:

www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-chat/2162856/posts

test.arkansasnews.com/archive/2008/11/12/News/349035.html

Video of Virginia Goeldner which has had mysteriously had audio removed:

335 posted on 08/07/2012 12:20:02 PM PDT by Plummz (pro-constitution, anti-corruption)
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To: Seizethecarp

first of all your statement that there are four “expert” genealogists from ancestry who said that is false.

and secondly, for every “genealogist” that you can find that believes the fantasy which you have posted, I can easily find two more that will dispute it.


336 posted on 08/07/2012 12:30:18 PM PDT by Brown Deer (Pray for 0bama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: Plummz
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nun-ht4HFg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Nun-ht4HFg

KATV

337 posted on 08/07/2012 12:30:18 PM PDT by Plummz (pro-constitution, anti-corruption)
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To: Seizethecarp

You wrote: “I find the certification by the four Ancestry.com genealogists based on solid circumstantial evidence consisting of records and DNA to be persuasive when they concluded that Barry descended from the slave John Punch.”

Did they “certify” the relationship? They have no DNA to prove that John Punch was the father of John Bunch. Their circumstantial evidence is anything but “solid.” I have shown how these “genealogists” (seems that only two have genealogy credentials) have put forth assumptions that anybody with common sense can PUNCH holes in (pun intended). You’re free to accept their assumptions or not. I don’t. Their hypothesis is full of holes. I take note that you do not address any of the holes I’ve punched. Telling.

Even their “fact” that Punch was the first slave is in dispute. He was an indentured servant. He was not a “slave” in the sense most consider an American black slave to be: That he was captured in Africa and brought here against his will, in the hold of a ship as cargo (as in the Middle Passage), sold in the US as a slave.

That they are going to such lengths to create a slave is also telling. It reminds one very much of how “it all depends on what the meaning of is is.” This is circumstantial evidence that they are seeing what they want to see.

You wrote: “The FOIA INS documents are uncontested by any competent expert and confirm Stanley Ann to have been reported to the INS to be pregnant in April 1961 by U of HI officials presumably by BHO Sr. U of HI also reported that they married on Feb 2, 1961 and subsequently that she was intending to go to school at a university in WA.”

Nope. Not a university in WA. Washington State University. But she didn’t go there; she went to the University of Washington. Two different schools. If we’re going to hew to the accuracy of these INS documents, then either they are true or they are not.

When has anybody seen these “documents” to contest? Has ANY “expert” had them submitted to him or her for authentication? Probably not, so it means nothing that they are “uncontested”.

The fact that you qualify further by saying “competent expert” is rather telling, imho.

Like so much else, these “documents” are digital images, subject to modification. The original source would be what needs to be examined. To use Ancestry’s word, “PRIMARY” sources. Those are the best sources.

You wrote: “Numerous subsequent newspaper, INS, passport and divorce documents confirm SADO as Barry’s uncontestd mom.”

There have been NO DOCUMENTS presented, much less “numerous” ones. A woman can be a “mom” without having given birth to said child. The newspaper announcements named neither child nor mother. Since the senior Obama had at least two, possibly three, wives in 1961, it’s anyone’s guess who that “Mrs.” was.

That is, if the announcements are real. Has ANYONE seen a paper version? btw, an INS memo from July 1964 appears to say that he had “over two wives now.” That’s before he married Ruth, because the memo discusses Ruth’s plan to marry him, despite his “over two wives now.” Who was the third? The “wife in the Philippines?”

SAD’s passport files are contradictory, missing, or locked away.

You wrote: “Absence of evidence (baby photos etc.) is not evidence of absence.”

Presence of digital images is not evidence of documents. Presence of photoshopped images is not evidence of a family.

It’s not our job to prove a negative. It’s Obama’s job to prove a positive—that he is who he says he is and that he’s qualified under the Constitution to hold the office he holds.

It’s also a genealogist’s job to present and use the best evidence available and not to make conclusions based upon an “absence of evidence,” which also means that one cannot invent evidence one wishes existed, when it does not exist.

You wrote: “The FIOA INS docs are solid, verifiable (can be forensically examined) evidence that Stanly Ann is absolutely Barry’s mom.”

Yes, they certainly can be forensically examined. Will anybody allow anyone to examine them? His birth records, his college records, his selective service records, his social security records, his passport records, his state senate records, the port of entry records—all can be “forensically examined,” except for the fact that nobody can pry any of these original documents out of the public repositories where they allegedly reside (or should reside) and this person will not release any of them for examination.

The INS questioned the “bona fides” of the marriage. Right there in the “documents” released. Nothing in the record reports whether they ever investigated further and, if they did, what they found.

You wrote: “There are no documents whatsoever that support a different mother for Barry that I have seen. No BC, passport, baby pics for a different mom for Barry, such as Valerie Sarruf available on the web that I have seen.”

There are no documents that support THIS mother for Barry. Where are they? DOCUMENTS. Circa 1961 paper documents. We don’t know WHO his mother is.

Ok, so let’s accept that SAD had a child in August, 1961. Given that those INS documents state that she was arranging to give the baby up for adoption, how do we know that she didn’t? How do you know that the man who claims he is SAD’s son IS the child that she gave birth to in August 1961?

Up until citizen researchers discovered the lie about the family being together until Barry was two, nobody mentioned that SAD was in Seattle, going to college, only weeks after she gave birth. Now that would be consistent with a woman who gave a child up for adoption. Getting on with her life in a new place. Away from the father.

Suddenly, now, the official biographers “find” and reveal what’s already been revealed with no explanation as to why they didn’t discover that truth on their own, during their initial research (as if they did any).

“The only evidence missing is proof of where Stanley Ann was when she gave birth to Barry.”

Nope. We could be missing the evidence of when she handed that baby over to the Salvation Army.


338 posted on 08/07/2012 12:53:48 PM PDT by Greenperson
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To: Seizethecarp
this is what seizethecarp believes:

"Robert Pattinson Connected to Dracula through Prince William and Prince Harry"

since it also came from his expert witnesses.
339 posted on 08/07/2012 12:55:25 PM PDT by Brown Deer (Pray for 0bama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: Brown Deer

“first of all your statement that there are four “expert” genealogists from ancestry who said that is false.”

Looks like four to me, if you look at the research document.

From the pdf:

“Documenting President Barack Obama’s Maternal African-American Ancestry: Tracing His Mother’s Bunch Ancestry to the First Slave in America

“By Anastasia Harman, Ancestry.com Lead Family Historian, Natalie D. Cottrill, MA, Paul C. Reed, FASG, and Joseph Shumway, AG”


340 posted on 08/07/2012 12:58:08 PM PDT by Seizethecarp
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341 posted on 08/07/2012 12:59:37 PM PDT by Brown Deer (Pray for 0bama. Psalm 109:8)
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To: Fred Nerks; Brown Deer; little jeremiah; ABrit
The only evidence missing is proof she gave birth to zero ANYWHERE, and in the absence of a genuine, verified, long form birth certificate from Hawaii showing his date of birth, the name of his mother and father, the name of the hospital where he was born, the name of the doctor who delivered him...you don't know where he was born, who his parents were, or when he was born.

John Brennan was Hussein's first choice for Director of Central Intelligence.

Brennan is Deputy National Security Advisor for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism, and Assistant to the President.


342 posted on 08/07/2012 12:59:37 PM PDT by PhilDragoo (Hussein: Islamo-Commie from Fakistan)
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To: Brown Deer
Allow me to invite you, again, to post evidence or discuss evidence in support of the Mal-Val narrative, or in support of any claim related to Barry's eligibility.
343 posted on 08/07/2012 1:00:42 PM PDT by Seizethecarp
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To: ABrit

I’ve seen no evidence that Fred Newman had a daughter named Jo Ann. Trowbridge’s hypothesis has very little evidence and what she presented doesn’t even hang together.


344 posted on 08/07/2012 1:04:04 PM PDT by Greenperson
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To: Fred Nerks

They wouldn’t release Shabazz’s parents names without evidence of death, but Martha Trowbridge says Shabazz’s social security records have been marked as deceased.

Surely another Freedom of Information attempt should be made?


345 posted on 08/07/2012 1:09:37 PM PDT by ABrit
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To: LivingNet

I think those signatures look the same.


346 posted on 08/07/2012 1:10:48 PM PDT by Greenperson
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To: Fred Nerks

They wouldn’t release Shabazz’s parents names without evidence of death, but Martha Trowbridge says Shabazz’s social security records have been marked as deceased.

Surely another Freedom of Information attempt should be made?


347 posted on 08/07/2012 1:10:58 PM PDT by ABrit
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To: Greenperson

What were the names of Fred Newman’s female relatives? Can’t seem to find them myself.


348 posted on 08/07/2012 1:19:08 PM PDT by ABrit
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To: ABrit; LucyT; Fred Nerks; Brown Deer
“I read that a long time ago and it is too confusing to grasp. So MT is saying that every single photo of SAD “out there” is photoshopped to make her look completely different, except that one with practically a crew cut that looks like someone else entirely and looks very much like a boy.”

It’s not too difficult. There is not a single realistic image of SAD, and there is not a single unimpeachable document for SAD. No unimpeachable eyewitness recollections.

I’m really disappointed with what’s going on with this “research”. What I see is a debate between complete Obots like Siezethecarp and people who disagree with them, but are also not going anywhere with the “investigation” after a long long time. My fear is that no-one is actually what they appear. This is all smoke and mirrors to mislead the rest of us into thinking “something is being done”.

I’d like to see a whole lot more about who Obama’s parents actually were. Not seeing anything at the moment apart from videos on X and Sarruf morphing into Obama. After over 4 years, that’s not good enough.

First, although there is a fair amount of conflicting, substandard, and outright false photographic evidence on the subject of Stanley, you can look back to the era of her birth documents and imagine that during the war, temporary and substitute people were involved in what was then a quasi rural area intensely involved in the war effort; and add all that up to the proposition that there is a reasonable factual support for her history through 1955, age 13, in Seattle. Say the general story is probably 75-80% probable.

After that, her story becomes increasingly less clear until March 1963 when she enrolled at University of Hawaii as an entering Freshman. After that date, there are some outright uncertainties but there is also a general outline into the 80's.

In looking at the couple of million dollars Zero's forces admit to spending on outside legal in this area; and the fact that they appear to have stopped accounting for it as outside expense and have had a cadre of government lawyers and related entity supporters; and looking at the quantity of legal work and support work that got done (manufacturing fraudulent birth documents for example), you can estimate that they have spent somewhere in excess of $10million; my own guess is in excess of $12million on their effort to conceal from public view, any information about zero's origin or background. (You are also welcome to second guess my estimates--find a lawyer with a 100-200+ lawer firm and ask him what the volume of work that has been done here would cost.)

So tell you what; you get together what zero's forces have spent in a law firm trust account designated by me with appropriate authority to act; and in 12-18 months I think I can answer all your questions. Now unfortunately that is not a guarantee although I can offer somewhat more assurances of result than a prayed for.

You're "really disappointed"? Well I admit to being disappointed but not surprised. It is hopelessly unreasonable to expect that a bunch of amateur volunteers is going to defeat one of the better law firms in the country with the kind of professional support available to them in a determined effort that appears to span close to 30 years. Just not very realistic.

Jerry Corsi is a great man who has done significant and successful work--without him, among other things, John Kerry would have been President. The Sheriff and Mike Zullo are dedicated public servants. But among them, they don't have either the quantity or capability of the kind of professional support you can buy with ten or twelve million dollars.

It is particularly disappointing for the reason that we can see hundred's of millions being spent in the electoral process which boils down to electing a minimum replacement who may not really represent much of an improvement in terms of policy. If we had professional capability a year and a half ago, we might have enough information to have zero out but if our best chance to replace him is Mitt Romney, you could probably expect to be saying President Clinton again by January. So maybe a ballot box replacement with Mitt is better than kicking zero out on eligibility grounds earlier.

On the other hand, if Romney is elected: After the election, absent outright resistance from a Romney administration which is possible; there is likely to be an incentive to continue a professional effort to unearth zero's history because if it proves subsequently that he was born outside the United States and was therefore ineligible to hold the office of President, a number of his substantive acts would get unwound. The two Supreme Court nominees are a couple of examples; I expect that on the way out the door, a few pardon's will get issued; I think but have not looked at the actual time line, that he signed the Zerocare bill after Congress adjourned which would thus have been legally pocket vetoed; there are a bunch of other acts which ought to be reversed if Romney has the integrity to act.

349 posted on 08/07/2012 1:23:35 PM PDT by David
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To: Seizethecarp

“very old Virginia?” Please. The woman is only a few years older than Stanley Ann. She’s, as you said, 20 years younger than her half-brother. In 2008, she was sprightly enough to host the media to look over her display of (photoshopped) family photos. She and her husband have a country-western band. I’m sure that Mrs. Goeldner would have more than a bone to pick with you for characterizing her as “very old”. That’s insulting to the intelligence of our MANY seasoned citizens right here at Free Republic. Virginia said what she said. I do think it’s likely that she did not know her half-brother well or especially his daughter. That distance might explain why, when first approached by the media, she accidentally told the truth instead of the narrative that she was supposed to tell.


350 posted on 08/07/2012 1:30:04 PM PDT by Greenperson
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