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Our Republic and Our Free Republic
9-6-02 | Joe Phillips

Posted on 09/06/2002 8:17:16 AM PDT by BADJOE

History teaches some very good lessons. They are hard to learn but our forefathers did a great job.

From the beginning of time man has overthrown one form of centralized government only to re-establish another one in its place. Our forefathers understood this far better than anyone ever had. They said governments are the eternal enemy of free men. They said that in order for man to remain free it would take a bloody revolution every other generation, unless you bound down (bastard) government with the chains of the constitution.

On another site this week a poster asked if anyone else hated government as much as he did. I replied to him

"Hell !! I thought you were not a good American if you didn't love our country and hate our government.

At least that is how I have always felt about it"

I think our forefathers had the same attitude that I have now. And I think it is inherent in the average Americans attitude to distrust and have disdain for any government, including ours. One of the hardest conclusions I had to arrive at as a young man, after having been a product of the public school system, was that our government was not on our side. As James Forrestahl, former secretary of the Navy, who suffered a mysterious death, once said about our State Department's foreign policy, " Stupidity is never a mark of consistancy. If they were merely stupid, they would occasionally make a mistake in our favor".

Newt Gringrich put it in a humourous manner when talking about the attitude of Europeans. He related the following story. If you go to Europe and drive on the Autobahn, you feel pretty good cruising down the highway at 100 mph when some some German passes you doing 140 mph. Now he said if the Bundestag passed the 55mph speed limit law, every German would dutifully obey that law, untill the next election. They would vote the 55 mph crowd out of office and the no speed limit crowd in. In America Newt said "A speed limit sign is a benchmark of opportunity.

It is obvious that Yankees and Euros have entirely different attitudes about government's edicts. There are darn few Americans who do not break the speed limit laws everyday.

Now we come to the Free Republic. Once a free wheeling, joyful site for news and discussion of politics, economics, philosophy, ethics and morals. I could not understand the transformation that has taken place in the last six months. Camaraderie, the sense of family, and cooperation seems to have disappeared. Are the Freepers exhibiting the same disdain for the new FR as Americans have for our government?


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To: BADJOE
We'll start withholding our contributions to FR (you contributed, didn't you?) when crotchety secessionists like myself get stifled. It hasn't happened yet. I don't see where there's a problem.
51 posted on 09/06/2002 8:49:53 AM PDT by warchild9
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To: Physicist
Joe, I thought you and someone else were overseeing the moderation. If anyone knows what's going on, it should be you. Rather than beating around the bush, can you tell us what happened, and why you are unable settle this privately with Jim?

Personally, I don't WANT to know what happened. Personally, I am SICK of hearing/seeing this debate being bantered about at a time when we as a nation are going through what we are going through.

And it especially to hear/see the rhetoric posted in his opening to this thread.

After his last few temper tantrums, the number of posters who were unhappy here, surely were NOT outnumbered by those who are happy here.

Obviously this problem did not get resolved to JOE'S satisfaction. He does have an alternative yanow.

52 posted on 09/06/2002 8:50:35 AM PDT by Neets
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Comment #53 Removed by Moderator

To: BADJOE
Once a free wheeling, joyful site for news and discussion of politics, economics, philosophy, ethics and morals

It still is if the Admin can get rid of people wanting to run the site as they wish and attempting to get banned freepers reinstated, undermining Jim and John Robinson and making posts in an attempt to complete a coup. Know what I mean, Vern?

54 posted on 09/06/2002 8:51:34 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: BADJOE
Sounds like Jim Robinson clipped your wings again, did he BadJoe? You didn't get your way again? Maybe take you off the Moderator Forum or whatever it is you where so upset about before?

Get a life and stop this bullshit. If it's so bad then move on down the road.

This forum has survived major changes in the past, lawsuits, disruptions among the members, factions that have split off, and who knows what else. These changes will continue in the future as long as there is a Forum.

55 posted on 09/06/2002 8:51:39 AM PDT by deport
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To: BADJOE
Camaraderie, the sense of family, and cooperation seems to have disappeared.

I dunno Joe, I still see it - at least among groups of FReepers. We pray for each other, support each other, share ideas. Some of the threads get ugly, but we're all brave behind a keyboard, right?

56 posted on 09/06/2002 8:51:53 AM PDT by stainlessbanner
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To: Mudboy Slim
Except fer a number of disgruntled AFers on websites that no one reads, what the heck are you talking about.

Please define AFer.

57 posted on 09/06/2002 8:52:00 AM PDT by AUgrad
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To: dirtboy
That low buzzing sound in the background is a score of AF worker bees madly re-posting this thread around the internet.

And the buzzing you heard beforehand was them putting poor ol gullible Joe up to it. Sad.

58 posted on 09/06/2002 8:53:02 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: BADJOE
Could you be more specific? I was under the impression that these issues were worked out behind the scene? Joe, you're a tiger on this site. Don't let anything stop what you do for us all.
59 posted on 09/06/2002 8:53:10 AM PDT by VA Advogado
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To: RedBloodedAmerican
Very sad, and even more sad is he has no clue.
60 posted on 09/06/2002 8:54:03 AM PDT by Neets
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To: BADJOE
I don't know why "hating the government" would be a badge of honor to anyone or any organization. All that shows of you or your organization is that you're quick to leap instead of think.

Government is only as good as the people who make it up and the restraints we free men agree to put on it. When a confluence of the bad makes both untenable, we do something about it. We don't "hate government"---that is, if we want to be taken seriously.

I think this site's mission statement is pretty damn clear: conservatism. Rolling back government largesse. Returning to a constitutional form of federal government. A return to individual sovereignty---when "don't tread on me" meant something---when good, honest, law-abiding, productive American citizens had nothing to fear from their government---no matter what their skin color, no matter whom they choose to sleep with, no matter what they eat, drink, smoke, read, listen to, or watch. When Americans could be proud of America both at home and abroad.

It sounds to me like your beef with FR is an offshoot of factionalism, and in my opinion, factions arise when people put issue before ideology, and that happens on Free Republic all the time (check out any Drug War thread). If I were emperor of FR, I'd challenge everyone here to start with conservative ideology and work outwards. We may come to different conclusions, but at least we'd be starting from the same basic givens. We must never lose sight of the fact that by posting here, except for the obvious disruptors, moles, and detractors, we're self-identified conservatives concerned with America. This shouldn't be a 1980s clique-ridden high school.

61 posted on 09/06/2002 8:54:44 AM PDT by Hemingway's Ghost
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Comment #62 Removed by Moderator

To: habs4ever
Gee,you can't let it go, can you? If this is going to be a regular pity party, why don't you just take your thumbsucker and depart?

You should be ashamed of what you just posted. You have no idea how hard Joe works and what he does for this site.

63 posted on 09/06/2002 8:55:44 AM PDT by VA Advogado
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To: BluesDuke
I like cheese...MUD
64 posted on 09/06/2002 8:55:45 AM PDT by Mudboy Slim
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To: deport; Southflanknorthpawsis; dirtboy; Howlin; DaughterOfAnIwoJimaVet; Texasforever; Iwo Jima; ...
60 posts and no reply. he must be chatting at the "little site" with the AFers.
65 posted on 09/06/2002 8:56:32 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: OneidaM
I would prefer Joe keep these thoughts to himself, because as a PTB at FR it only shows a public that there is disunity and confusion at the top.

However, the Bushbotulism of this forum cannot be denied. FR has gone from a place where ideas can be hashed out, and government policy questioned, to a place where cheerleading sections for totalitarian government abound, and where mobs of posters descend on anyone with the slightest criticism of the Bush admin.

That is not healthy for the forum.

Two things should change: 1) NO attacks should be permitted. NO personal attacks WHATSOEVER. One can argue a point without getting person. I am guilty of this offense, as we all are. But moderation should prevent it. 2) Mob gang-ups should be discouraged. If someone faces a tag-team of 5 or 7 people, all ridiculing a decent or cogent thought or premise, that is also not healthy for the forum.

The forum is not well. If you deny it, it will wither.

66 posted on 09/06/2002 8:57:12 AM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: Mudboy Slim; BADJOE
I just think calling JimRob a "SELLOUT" is absolutely preposterous and I'd like to see who the heck agrees with BADJOE on this lunacy!!

Well I don't agree and I don't know where Badjoe thinks he's going with this

I'm just shaking my head

67 posted on 09/06/2002 8:57:47 AM PDT by Mo1
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To: VA Advogado
You have no idea how hard Joe works and what he does for this site

Yea, you got that right, bub. Just take a look at his work.

68 posted on 09/06/2002 8:58:11 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: one_particular_harbour
You're absolutely right. Of course Joe has some other agenda, y'know.

Specify.

69 posted on 09/06/2002 8:58:11 AM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: dirtboy
Agreed. Because of the recent dust-up here that BadJoe had a hand in I learned of what they call TOS, or LP. I have just posted the following message there, and it will be self explanatory.

23. To: askel5 (#17) There is too much in this outdated article to quote from, although it does cover a little history. FreeRepublic has been a little bloodied recently, but then, so has the country. I spent a lot of time lurking on FR and then signed on "back in the day." These wars (cyber spats) come and go. FreeRepublic, for all its warts, is still the most vigorous and animated site around. I'll confess, I am not using my FR screen name. I signed in here a couple of weeks ago to see what all the fuss was about, and I have tried to be objective about what I see and hear. I have seen a lot of names from the past, many of which I have shared good times with on threads. I chose this name, PonyPatuty, because of an old Ronald Reagan story. It was about the little boy who had asked Santa Claus for a pony. His parents couldn't afford a pony for their cheerful little boy, but his father put some manure under the tree. The little boy ran all around the house and outdoors after seeing the manure, laughing and singing. Asked why he was so happy he replied, "With all this horse sh** there just has to be a pony around somewhere. In two weeks of looking I have been unable to find the pony. PonyPatuty posted on 2002-09-06 11:42:45 Reply

70 posted on 09/06/2002 8:58:26 AM PDT by billhilly
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To: AUgrad
AFer = anti-FReepers, an insignificant number of disgruntled EX-FReepers who started their own sites so they could sit around whinin' about how JimRob runs his own site.

FReegards...MUD

BTW...I like yer bumper sticker.

71 posted on 09/06/2002 8:59:25 AM PDT by Mudboy Slim
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To: Lazamataz
...Bushbotulism...

Hilarious!

72 posted on 09/06/2002 9:00:05 AM PDT by Inspector Harry Callahan
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
I don't know why "hating the government" would be a badge of honor to anyone or any organization.

It was a badge of honor to Germans who hated Nazism. It was a badge of honor to Italians who hated Fascism. It was a badge of honor to Russians who hated Stalinism and Communism. It was a badge of honor to Cambodians who hated Pol Pot.

Finally, it was a badge of honor to American Colonists who hated England.

73 posted on 09/06/2002 9:00:34 AM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: BADJOE
IMHO, there is a direct correlation between the increase in Admin Moderator censorship and the decline of posting quality/defection of FR posters.

Censorship is not a characteristic of a "FreeRepublic".

74 posted on 09/06/2002 9:00:42 AM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: dubyagee
History also repeats itself...as it is doing on this very thread.

To finish the quote..."The first time as tragedy, the second as farce."

75 posted on 09/06/2002 9:00:45 AM PDT by Tijeras_Slim
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To: Mudboy Slim
Just for you...on the house! ;)


76 posted on 09/06/2002 9:01:04 AM PDT by BluesDuke
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To: RedBloodedAmerican
Yea, you got that right, bub. Just take a look at his work.

Look, I dont like to see this either. I happen to disagree with Joe about the Mods. I think they do a fine job. And I hate seeing these fights go on in public, but still, the man deserves the respect of us all for the hard work that he's done. Its like Jim and Joe are the parents here and none of us want to see them get divorced.

77 posted on 09/06/2002 9:01:34 AM PDT by VA Advogado
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Let's see.

First, and without reservation, I will state on record that I think FreeRebublic is THE most valuabale site on the net today. (Thank's Jim)

Taking this a step further, I appreciate Joe's questioning of FreeRepublic's demise, whether I agree with him or not.

The last thing I want is to see is this site disintigrate into a backslapping, wink wink nudge nudge, oligarchy.

There again, who the hell do I think I am?

78 posted on 09/06/2002 9:01:46 AM PDT by Jakarta ex-pat
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To: Lazamataz
ideas can be hashed out, and government policy questioned

But much of these "hashed out...questions" are reposting liberal spin and more of a "we hate Bush because our guy isn't President" lies. Ideas and policies being questioned remain; it is the crap that gets deleted. Maybe the posters can do a check of their agenda.

79 posted on 09/06/2002 9:01:56 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: dirtboy
If FR is a GOP mouthpiece, bought and paid for, then the party's in worse shape than anyone thought. That particular tinfoil theory is a crock.
80 posted on 09/06/2002 9:02:25 AM PDT by mountaineer
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To: Inspector Harry Callahan
Just decided to drop into FR to join the fight Harry?? How special of you.
81 posted on 09/06/2002 9:02:25 AM PDT by Neets
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Comment #82 Removed by Moderator

To: BADJOE
why anyone would shoot their funding

What do you mean? If there's something wrong with the funding, don't be coy; spit it out.

I happen to agree that too many FR posters are GOP lapdogs, but is the party is behind the transformation of FR? Hell, Joe, they don't even know we exist. We're a bug on their windshield.

As for the lamented Good Old Days, I'll tell you something. When I joined up, about 4 years ago, I almost immediately took a leave of absence and didn't return for a long time. Reason? I was just too disgusted by the stupid, groupthink posts from what seemed an undifferentiated, mindless rabble whose one capacity was for inchoate anger. We've always had that sort here; I just feel I've made some progress in learning how to avoid them.

83 posted on 09/06/2002 9:02:39 AM PDT by Romulus
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To: Lazamataz
However, the Bushbotulism of this forum cannot be denied. FR has gone from a place where ideas can be hashed out, and government policy questioned, to a place where cheerleading sections for totalitarian government abound, and where mobs of posters descend on anyone with the slightest criticism of the Bush admin.

Oh, I wouldn't say that. Outright deep-fried Bush-bashing is tolerated on this site, to say nothing of legitimate criticism. Check out the Arabian Nightmare thread.

84 posted on 09/06/2002 9:03:07 AM PDT by Physicist
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To: Physicist
Joe, I thought you and someone else were overseeing the moderation. If anyone knows what's going on, it should be you. Rather than beating around the bush, can you tell us what happened, and why you are unable settle this privately with Jim?

BADJOE should definitely settle these issues privately. Public displays like this are counterproductive.

However, that said, there is an issue w/ FR lately. I don't believe any of the tinfoil stuff, but there is a moderator- and owner-supported move towards the Republican Establishment.

85 posted on 09/06/2002 9:03:16 AM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: VA Advogado
That's fine. But that does not give him right to publicly crap on the website owners. Absalom, if you ask me. No different than the kind of crap we see Dems doing to the Bush Admin daily.
86 posted on 09/06/2002 9:03:20 AM PDT by RedBloodedAmerican
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To: VA Advogado
Frankly, this is one divorce that would not break my heart.
87 posted on 09/06/2002 9:03:43 AM PDT by Neets
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Comment #88 Removed by Moderator

To: Rebelbase
IMHO, there is a direct correlation between the increase in Admin Moderator censorship and the decline of posting quality/defection of FR posters.

I disagree. Many of those departed wacko libertarians were pratically turning this site into an open air drug market.

89 posted on 09/06/2002 9:03:51 AM PDT by VA Advogado
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To: VA Advogado
I see another attempt by Joe to undermine FR.I do not care one iota for his past service when he continues to post this garbage.Joe is the one that ought to be ashamed for this, not I, and there is a remedy available to him.

90 posted on 09/06/2002 9:04:01 AM PDT by habs4ever
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To: tomkat; BADJOE
joe, i love ya, and all you've done for FR, but if this turns into another slug fest a week before 9-11, i hope the f*****g thing gets nuked !

tomkat, In the interests of unity, as you mentioned in a later post, I'll give this a bump........

...also because I agree with you in your quote above, despite any past disagreements we've had in the past.

BADJOE, as far as any censorship goes, I'd say that only happens when people start acting like jerks.....and that goes for everyone, Bush and anti-Bush. After all, look at this thread, pushing 100 and still hasn't gotten the boot.

91 posted on 09/06/2002 9:04:24 AM PDT by FourtySeven
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To: Physicist
Oh, I wouldn't say that. Outright deep-fried Bush-bashing is tolerated on this site, to say nothing of legitimate criticism. Check out the Arabian Nightmare thread.

The exceptions prove the rule. I have seen a lot more of the cheerleading and mob-rule than the other. However, yes, I will concede that there is relatively little direct censorship.

There is, however, trend-encouragement.

92 posted on 09/06/2002 9:05:01 AM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: Lazamataz
And, if I'm not mistaken, it was a badge of honor to those of us who hated the Clinton crime wave that masqueraded as government. How quickly people forget.
93 posted on 09/06/2002 9:05:53 AM PDT by MizSterious
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any takers on this one makin' 500 ?

much to our collective detriment ...

94 posted on 09/06/2002 9:05:53 AM PDT by tomkat
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Comment #95 Removed by Moderator

To: one_particular_harbour
Hard to say - but this is the second time in a month that he has pulled this.

I submit it is not 'agenda', but bad judgement.

96 posted on 09/06/2002 9:06:14 AM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: Donald Stone
Are the Freepers exhibiting the same disdain for the new FR as Americans have for our government?

I trust there always will be an assortment of curmudgeons, spirited and principled who'll question any authority who oversteps the bounds of justice or truth.

That doesn't bother me nearly as much as the suck-ups.

If I were Jim Robinson, all the ass-kissing around here would give me the creeps and suggest to me this had become some kind of Sycophant City whose support of the President's every Clever Compromise where ESCR, the environment, the War on Terror, the Patriot Act, CFR, etc. etc. is unsettling to say the least.

I find it passing strange a "conservative" site that allegedly champions the individual, his rights and his obligation to follow his conscience (even if it means swimming upstream) seeks always to ostracize anyone who doesn't lockstep.

Who cares if Badjoe blows off a little steam and asks questions? And what does it matter if it happens on the eve of that terrible anniversary the media and our government look poised to use like a chain to yank us into a collective of nationalism and renewed support for the War on Terror from here on out year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year?

(I chose roughly 30 years since that's the minimum folks like Hackworth see this War on Terror lasting -- of which our as yet unfinished "win" in Afghanistan was only Round One.)

97 posted on 09/06/2002 9:06:15 AM PDT by Askel5
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To: Mudboy Slim
BTW...I like yer bumper sticker.

Thanks. I get a lot of comments about it.

98 posted on 09/06/2002 9:06:45 AM PDT by AUgrad
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To: Lazamataz
However, yes, I will concede that there is relatively little direct censorship. There is, however, trend-encouragement.

And that's called dealing with humans as some thrive on group think...so what's your point?

99 posted on 09/06/2002 9:07:16 AM PDT by dubyagee
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disintigrate=

disintegrate

100 posted on 09/06/2002 9:08:01 AM PDT by Jakarta ex-pat
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