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Cobb (County, GA) dads enter fray over evolution in schools
Atlanta Journal-Constitution ^ | 9.8.02 | MARY MacDONALD

Posted on 09/07/2002 7:55:51 PM PDT by mhking

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To: Condorman
The discussion in question began in post 23 regarding scientific proof of god.

Actually, this discussion, like most on FR, started in POST 1. The subject of this thread is who should control what is taught in public schools. As it happens, your attempt to hijack the thread, to the irrelevant question of what is scientifically true, remains an attempted hijacking.

221 posted on 09/12/2002 10:08:50 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
It is always good to see the respect that some scientific types have for the people who ultimately pay their salaries.

Mobs deserve no respect. Real democracy's track record is, within a generation, to demolish the very concept of law with one fashionable caprice after another replacing real laws, followed by unbridled tyranny arising in the vacuum of law that results. The correct answer is--stop saddling humans up like donkeys to support an enterprise they care nothing about. The Constitution had no original provisions for an income tax, and for obviously good reasons. Nowhere is it writ that we need to hyperfund scientific activities. Private research universities and technical journals existed before government funding, and they will exist afterwards.

222 posted on 09/12/2002 10:11:05 AM PDT by donh
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To: balrog666; donh; Condorman
The Constitution and the Bill of Rights (the first ten amendments) were ratified as a single document.

Wrong again. Do any of you others on your side wish to associate yourselves with this idiocy?

223 posted on 09/12/2002 10:11:24 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
An appeal to what is commonly accepted as Plato's viewpoint, which is, of course, the source or all fascism.

It is commonly accepted because it is what he plainly wrote in "The Republic". It is a great excuse for fascism, but the source of fascism is pretty obviously fanatacism married to thuggary, encouraged by a fatal need in the human heart to turn over the big scary questions to Daddy. No people, who truly want to be free, and are willing to pay for it, can be enslaved.

224 posted on 09/12/2002 10:16:40 AM PDT by donh
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To: donh; balrog666
of course, it's probable drafter, Madison

Actually, it is generally agreed that Gouvenor Morris of New Jersey drafted the document. Madison was kept pretty busy as the Secretary of the Convention. In any case, the first amendment is not a product of the Convention, unless you agree with Balrog666 that the Bill of Rights was adopted simultaneously with the Constitution. In any case, the quotes you cited from Madison were not made as arguments in the Amendment process. That is because Madison wanted the Bill of Rights to be adopted, which would not have happenned using the arguments you mentioned.

225 posted on 09/12/2002 10:18:43 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Wrong again. Do any of you others on your side wish to associate yourselves with this idiocy?

Gosh, I was wrong.

Now it's your turn to admit your own idiocy.

226 posted on 09/12/2002 10:20:32 AM PDT by balrog666
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To: donh
It is commonly accepted because it is what he plainly wrote in "The Republic".

He wrote a lot of things in 'The Republic'. It consists of DIALOGS, remember. The position you mentioned was presented by one of the 'participants' in the the dialog, not by Plato, who, as in most of the dialogs, does not appear in the document.

227 posted on 09/12/2002 10:22:13 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
The subject of this thread is who should control what is taught in public schools. As it happens, your attempt to hijack the thread, to the irrelevant question of what is scientifically true, remains an attempted hijacking.

As usual, you are wrong. The discussion concerns WHAT should be taught in public schools. Religion should not be taught in science class. The nature and scope of scientific inquiry is certainly germane to the discussion. Which reminds me, you have still failed to properly identify or convincingly defend post #28.

And what, exactly, does it mean to "hijack a thread"? To point out obvious flaws in your thought process? To illuminate blatant mischaracterizations on your part with regards to the nature of science, the need for logical proof, and the subject and original intent of your own blinking posts? Or, having been thoroughly discredited since the thread began, are you simply attempting to shift the focus elsewhere by crying foul?

Actually, this discussion, like most on FR, started in POST 1.

And, like most on FR, the discussion has diverged into several independent arguments, many of which are partially related to the original article, all of which you have lost.

228 posted on 09/12/2002 10:25:10 AM PDT by Condorman
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To: donh
You mean, for instance, by the federal supreme court disallowing christian prayer in publicly supported schools with mandated attendance, for example?

I agree with the Chief Justice, Judge Bork, and most other conservative jurists that this decision was decided incorrectly. A few good Bush appointees, and it will be reversed.

229 posted on 09/12/2002 10:26:44 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Condorman
The discussion concerns WHAT should be taught in public schools.

Exactly! What should be taught in public schools is whatever the public wants taught.

230 posted on 09/12/2002 10:28:38 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: balrog666
Now it's your turn to admit your own idiocy.

Sorry, on FR conservatives do not support the positions of DU trolls.

231 posted on 09/12/2002 10:30:04 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: donh
To imagine that congress took no heed of that, nor had any active sympathy for it among the ranks of the amendments' drafters is to strain credibility beyond the breaking point.

Then you should have no difficulty in citing 18th on 19th century sources supporting your viewpoint.

232 posted on 09/12/2002 10:31:36 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Sorry, on FR conservatives do not support the positions of DU trolls.

Does that mean that everybody should quit swapping posts with you?

233 posted on 09/12/2002 10:32:53 AM PDT by balrog666
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To: donh
possessed by Madison, Adams, Washington and Jefferson.

Please cite any evidence that Adams or Washington supportted your viewpoint.

234 posted on 09/12/2002 10:33:21 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: donh
'the respect that some scientific types have for the people who ultimately pay their salaries.'Mobs deserve no respect.

What about the thieves who take the taxpayers money, and then refer to the taxpayers who employ them as a mob. If they are a mob, don't take their money.

235 posted on 09/12/2002 10:36:42 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Condorman; A CA Guy; Amelia; ArneFufkin; blackbart.223; Bush2000; Chad Fairbanks; ClancyJ; COB1; ...
The subject of this thread is who should control what is taught in public schools. As it happens, your attempt to hijack the thread, to the irrelevant question of what is scientifically true, remains an attempted hijacking.

Those of youwho are interested in the question of who should control public schools, and if religion should be taught in public schools, may be interested in this thread.

236 posted on 09/12/2002 10:43:06 AM PDT by Lucius Cornelius Sulla
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
What should be taught in public schools is whatever the public wants taught.

As long, of course, as you personally agree with it. And notwithstanding the flawless grasp the average person has on the fundamental intricacies of science.

237 posted on 09/12/2002 10:48:19 AM PDT by Condorman
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
Exactly! What should be taught in public schools is whatever the public wants taught.

I agree with you LCS. There is no nationwide answer for this, the cirriculum of schools and the subjects in science class should be decided in every community to serve every community's own population.

The discussion of the origins of the planet most certainly should not completely ignore beliefs that are held by large percentages of the local community that is paying for it.

People with strong feelings about it should attend school board meetings or serve on these boards. Unfortunately, IME no one comes to school board meetings to discuss curriculum issues when they are on the agenda.

238 posted on 09/12/2002 11:08:39 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
The Constitution and the Bill of Rights (the first ten amendments) were ratified as a single document.

Wrong again. Do any of you others on your side wish to associate yourselves with this idiocy?

Post #209 ought to clear this up. The schoolroom take on this question is that the Bill of Rights was promised to obtain anti-federalist signatures on the Constitution, and without that promise, the Constitution would have failed to obtain enough signatures to legitimize it in the minds of the general population.

The sources I quoted earlier are not so sure of this. It seems likely that the Constitution would have squeeked by without a Bill of Rights and some influential federalists argued for delaying it until Congress could get properly down to business, if not indefinitely, but Madison, who was not a huge fan of it, interestingly enough, seems to have felt it a point of honor to keep the promise that bought the anti-federalist signatures. And he pushed congress into drafting it immediately, and took the lead its formulation.

Some of the amendments were offered up by the Mason and the committee of um...detail? toward the end of the constitutional convention, however, the Bill of Rights was drafted in Congress, as a single document.

Since the BofR was a horsetrade for the Constitution, and since both documents were plowing new legal waters, I would argue that, although they are separately drafted documents, their ties are so intimate as to easily forgive someone 3 centuries later for suffering the impression that they are one document. They are certainly the result of one coherent political argument to obtain a signed Constitution viewed as legitimizing the new government.

239 posted on 09/12/2002 11:09:02 AM PDT by donh
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla
When I had science class in public schools, we discussed a lot of different theories. We discussed Darwin, guided evolution and biblical creation theories. Discussing the pros and cons of each theory openly in class. The teacher didn't tell us which one to believe, the class discussed it and came to their own conclusion. That was the fun part. I would have hated to go and have only one perpective given to me.
240 posted on 09/12/2002 11:12:48 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog
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