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HS Lesbian Sues Over Locker Ban
NY Post ^ | 2002-12-18 | Reuters

Posted on 12/18/2002 6:23:47 AM PST by Lorenb420

Edited on 05/26/2004 5:10:44 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

December 18, 2002 -- LOS ANGELES - A 15-year-old student who was banned from the girl's locker room at her school because she is a lesbian filed a federal civil-rights lawsuit yesterday in a case that tests the rights of gay students.


(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: cunnilingus; education; gay; highschool; homosexual; lesbian; middleschool; publicschool; school; thissucks
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To: homeschool mama
you and me both.
101 posted on 12/18/2002 8:55:53 AM PST by TheOtherOne
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To: homeschool mama
Is that so? Do you have more information about this incident, because the story that inspired the thread states in no uncertain terms that this girl was barred from gym class for more than a week and sent instead to the principal's office because of what administrators claimed "WOULD" happen.

"Ashly Massey claims she was "humiliated and denigrated" when she was barred from gym class for more than a week and sent instead to the principal's office by administrators at Coombs MS in Banning, Calif. They claimed that other girls would be uncomfortable getting undressed in front of her."

There's a world of difference between what "would" happen and what "did" happen, is there not?
102 posted on 12/18/2002 8:55:54 AM PST by Hemingway's Ghost
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To: AmishDude
After consulting Webster's, we may both be right. However, there is no equivocation in the meaning of the word "preference". Maybe that's why it bothers the queers so much where "orientation" doesn't. When one says "sexual preference", it's stating emphatically that the subject chooses to have sex with whomever they do.

This, of course, puts the responsibility of whatever disease or malady may arise squarely on the one making the choice, where "sexual orientation" leaves enough wiggle room for the queer to say "Oh, I couldn't help getting AIDS from having sex with other men, because it's my orientation...I was born that way". It also allows this little girl the wiggle room to claim she's some kind of special class of citizen, and therefore entitled to protection from the mean straight girls who pick on her in the locker room, or whatever she's alleging. On a broader scale, it gives queers throughout our society the wiggle room to push for "gay" marriages, spousal rights, adoptions, inclusion in "hate crimes" laws, and protected class status.

Finally, I know it pi**es queers off to use the term "sexual preference", so that's reason enough for me to say it.

Yes, words mean things. The Left is using the Orwellian Newspeak tactic of changing the language in an attempt to remove thoughts, concepts and philosophies they don't agree with from our collective psyche, and to advance their agendas. This is but one example, but there are many, many more (how many TV ads mention the word "Christmas" versus those that wish you "Happy Holidays"?). To allow the Left to set the terms of the debate is to participate in the degradation and eventual downfall of our society. It may be a losing battle, but one worth fighting nonetheless.

Sorry, didn't mean to lecture. I get carried away some times (damn this addictive forum!)...

Scouts out! Cavalry Ho!

103 posted on 12/18/2002 8:58:31 AM PST by wku man
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
.......At least in my neighborhood, we are still allowed to run down street criminals on foot and knock them around a bit while waiting for the squad car to come........
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I see. You live in one of those primitive bubba neighborhoods which prides itself in its insensitivity.
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Any vacancies?
104 posted on 12/18/2002 8:58:42 AM PST by JMP
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To: TheOtherOne
The point is that most of those complaining are keying on their discomfort as the trigger for the girl to leave. That is not a sufficient rationale.

Exactly. People, conservatives especially, seem to throw up their arms in disgust whenever they hear about the massive sense of entitlement today's children seem to have. But is it any wonder that they do, especially when conservative parents are teaching their kids that discomfort is equal to an actionable offense?

105 posted on 12/18/2002 9:00:20 AM PST by Hemingway's Ghost
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
**"Ashly Massey claims she was "humiliated and denigrated" when she was barred from gym class for more than a week and sent instead to the principal's office by administrators at Coombs MS in Banning, Calif. They claimed that other girls would be uncomfortable getting undressed in front of her." **

I would venture to say there is much more to this story than is being told in the article. I have a friend in the neighboring school district. I'll contact him and see if he knows anything more.

106 posted on 12/18/2002 9:01:27 AM PST by homeschool mama
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To: TheOtherOne
Would you have done the same if the girls at a white school were uncomfotable with a black girl in the room? Does anything that makes other people uncomfortable warrant their being removed?

Sophistry. We are discussing sexual attraction, not race. It is a favourite tactic of the homosexual lobby to equate the two.

Ivan

107 posted on 12/18/2002 9:03:51 AM PST by MadIvan
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
One interesting tidbit I learned is that this is a middle school..grades 6-8. What is a 15 year old girl doing in middle school?

I have a call in to my friend...school is in session so he won't be able to get back to me til later.

108 posted on 12/18/2002 9:05:08 AM PST by homeschool mama
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
One interesting tidbit I learned is that this is a middle school..grades 6-8. What is a 15 year old girl doing in middle school?

I have a call in to my friend...school is in session so he won't be able to get back to me til later.

109 posted on 12/18/2002 9:05:08 AM PST by homeschool mama
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To: homeschool mama
sorry for the double post...
110 posted on 12/18/2002 9:05:35 AM PST by homeschool mama
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To: truenospinzone
..........If the logic behind keeping this girl out of a locker room with other girls is that she may be attracted to one of them, wouldn't putting her in a room with other lesbians be even more likely to result in two teenagers involved in a sexual situation on school premises? .....
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Your concern seems to be what is good for the deviant. It should be what is good for the normal girls.
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Get it? Deviant vs. Normal. Just telling it like it is.
111 posted on 12/18/2002 9:06:08 AM PST by JMP
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
Exactly. People, conservatives especially, seem to throw up their arms in disgust whenever they hear about the massive sense of entitlement today's children seem to have. But is it any wonder that they do, especially when conservative parents are teaching their kids that discomfort is equal to an actionable offense?

It is not an actionable offense. I would say however if these girls are going to possibly put into a "peep show" situation, it is better to ask their opinion rather than tell them what they must do from on high.

Ivan

112 posted on 12/18/2002 9:06:43 AM PST by MadIvan
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To: DonaldC
What are you going to do if the Libs ever take control and declare Christians a deviant group that should be made uncomfortable?
113 posted on 12/18/2002 9:07:31 AM PST by Karsus
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To: MadIvan
It is not an actionable offense. I would say however if these girls are going to possibly put into a "peep show" situation, it is better to ask their opinion rather than tell them what they must do from on high.

It's all a part of growing up, is it not? There are some things that just are, and we've got to learn to get used to them. Getting used to them and taking them for what they are makes us stronger.

114 posted on 12/18/2002 9:10:42 AM PST by Hemingway's Ghost
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To: homeschool mama
I would venture to say there is much more to this story than is being told in the article. I have a friend in the neighboring school district. I'll contact him and see if he knows anything more.

That would be interesting. Thank you for your efforts.

115 posted on 12/18/2002 9:11:45 AM PST by Hemingway's Ghost
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
It's all a part of growing up, is it not? There are some things that just are, and we've got to learn to get used to them. Getting used to them and taking them for what they are makes us stronger

The girls parents pay for the school to operate. So basically, in your world, they have no say in how that school runs, even though it is running off of the parents' dime. You, as the central authority have made the decision for the girls as to what is good for them or not without their consent or consultation.

I wonder if it can be said in light of this that in the chest of every libertarian beats the heart of a statist?

Ivan

116 posted on 12/18/2002 9:15:39 AM PST by MadIvan
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To: JMP
Your concern seems to be what is good for the deviant. It should be what is good for the normal girls

No, my concern is with the fact that public schools should place a higher premium on keeping teenagers from being in sexual situations on school premises than on keeping teenagers from being uncomfortable. A homosexual female in a room full of homosexuals is a lot more likely to be involved in a sexual situation than a homesexual female in a room full of heterosexuals.

And off-topic, I generally find that anyone arrogant enough to use a blowhard term like "just telling it like it is" is doing anything but...

117 posted on 12/18/2002 9:15:51 AM PST by truenospinzone
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To: homeschool mama; All
More on the story
Lesbian sues school over locker room ban
19 December 2002

LOS ANGELES: A 15-year-old California student, who was banned from the girl's locker room at her school because she is a lesbian, has filed a federal civil rights lawsuit in a case that tests the rights of gay students.

Ashly Massey claims she was "humiliated and denigrated" when she was barred from gym class for more than a week and sent instead to the principal's office by administrators at Coombs Middle School in Banning, California, who said that other girls would be uncomfortable getting undressed in front of her.

"It's fine if they're uncomfortable but it's still discrimination," Massey said in an interview yesterday. "I have an equal right to be in the locker room. I didn't do anything wrong."

She said word quickly spread around the school that she had been sent to the office because of her sexual orientation, which lead to harassment from fellow students. Banning is a city of about 25,000 people located 144km east of Los Angeles in the California desert.

"I felt alienated, said Massey, who was 14 at the time of the incident.

The case highlights the tightrope schools must walk in an era of sexual openness, as they must protect both the rights of gay students and their heterosexual classmates, who could raise issues of privacy or sexual harassment.

The teenager, who is represented in her US District Court lawsuit by lawyers for the American Civil Liberties Union and National Centre for Lesbian Rights, seeks unspecified compensatory and punitive damages against the Banning Unified School District.

Her lawsuit also names as defendants her former gym teacher, Karen Gill, Principal Manuel Peredia, Vice Principal Kirby Dabney and Banning Unified School District superintendent

Kathleen McNamara. Besides monetary damages, she seeks training courses to fight discrimination in the district.

McNamara and a spokesman for Coombs Middle School declined comment on the lawsuit.

Massey said the trouble began when a friend shouted in the locker room that she was a lesbian, leading to a reprimand from Gill and a phone call from the gym teacher to her mother. The next day, Massey said, she was sent to the principal's office instead of gym, a pattern repeated each day for the next week and a half.

Massey said she was never told why she was sitting in the principal's office and that her mother was not told of the decision. She said she agreed to file the lawsuit despite concerns that it could lead to more harassment.

"I'm a little nervous but I think that this is a good opportunity for people like me, whether they are gay, straight or transgender, to be able to stand up for what's happening to them," she said. "This goes on all over."

Massey's mother, Amelia, said she and her daughter decided to proceed with the lawsuit after taking into consideration all of the possible ramifications.

"She was made out to be a public spectacle," Amelia Massey, a registered nurse, said. "She feels strongly about who she is and feels strongly that she should take this stand. This is the rest of her life. You can't just put your head down."


118 posted on 12/18/2002 9:17:12 AM PST by Hemingway's Ghost
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
Even more:

District hit with bias lawsuit
Lesbian teen says she spent gym period in principal's office after Banning teacher learned she was gay
12/18/2002
By SHARYN OBSATZ and STEVE FETBRANDT
THE PRESS-ENTERPRISE

BANNING - A teacher kicked an eighth-grader out of gym class after finding out the girl was a lesbian, according to a discrimination lawsuit filed Tuesday against the Banning Unified School District.

The American Civil Liberties Union and the National Center for Lesbian Rights allege that Coombs Middle School staff violated the state and U.S. constitutional rights of the student, Ashly Massey, who confirmed she is a lesbian. The case is tied to a 2000 state law that bars public schools from discrimination based on sexual orientation.

District Superintendent Kathleen McNamara declined to comment on the lawsuit.

Lawyers and gay advocates said they have never heard of another case of a student being excluded from class because of sexual orientation.

For a week and a half in March, Ashly said in an interview, she was ordered to sit in the principal's office during her gym period. Other students noticed her, she said.

"They didn't point and laugh, (but) that's how I felt. It wasn't right. I didn't appreciate it," she said.

Ashly dropped the gym class when her school schedule was shortened so she could participate in a medical research program. The change was planned before the alleged exclusion.

Ashly, now 15 and a high school student in the neighboring Beaumont district, said she hopes the lawsuit prevents someone else from going through the same thing.

Discrimination alleged

The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Riverside, also names McNamara; Coombs Middle School Principal Manuel Peredia; Kirby Dabney, then dean of student services; and gym teacher Karen Gill.

Gill, Peredia and Dabney could not be reached for comment.

Coombs Middle School Dean of Students Bryan James said the school was aware of the allegation.

"We don't know this to be true, but if it is true, it's wrong," said James, who came to the school in August, five months after the alleged exclusion.

Ashly said only a few friends knew she was a lesbian. But one day, she said, Gill overheard a student say Ashly was a lesbian. Ashly said she was told by the teacher: "Nobody needs to know that."

That night, the lawsuit said, the teacher called Ashly's mother, Amelia, and said some of the students felt uncomfortable with Ashly being in the locker room.

Ashly's mother asked whether Ashly had ever acted inappropriately, the suit said. The teacher said, "No," and agreed to call if there were any problems. She did not call again, the suit said.

The next day, according to the suit, the teacher told Ashly to report to the principal's office instead of gym class.

Ashly's mother came to school to discuss the schedule change and found out her daughter had been sitting in the principal's office during gym period for a week and a half, the suit said. She was told the principal had decided to bar Ashly from attending gym, the suit alleges.

Amelia Massey compares sending her daughter to the principal's office to the days when black children were sent to the back of the bus.

Mixed reaction

The school might be justifed in excluding a student to protect the health and safety of other students, San Jacinto pastor Larry Ammon said.

"Is she going to hit on some other girl in the shower?" he asked. Ammon, pastor at the Life Change Fellowship church, said he opposes tolerance of homosexuality in public schools.

But Lindsey Alarcon, 17, a member of the Gay-Straight Alliance at La Sierra High School in Riverside, said Ashly had a right to be in gym class.

Jonathan Gaag, a gay senior at La Quinta High School, believes part of the problem is misinformation.

Most gay students hide their sexual orientation from others, Jonathan, 17, said. The last thing they want is to draw attention to themselves.

"There would be no chance I would ever hit on someone in a locker room," he said.

Unusual case

Statistics suggest that most gym classes have at least one gay student, said Courtney Joslin, the National Center for Lesbian Rights attorney pursuing Ashly's case.

"The only thing that's unusual is the school's response," she said.

Rick Smedstad, executive director of the Gay-Associated Youth Center in Palm Desert, said he had never heard of a case like Ashly's.

He has heard complaints that teachers and school staff turn a blind eye to harassment of gay students by other students.

About 78 percent of teens report that kids who are gay or thought to be gay are teased and bullied in their schools and communities, according to a new National Mental Health Association survey.

Some gay students encounter trouble in gym class because a student is harassing them but the school still makes them attend, said Will Northwest, a gay community college student from San Bernardino.

Ashly's attorneys hope to enforce California's Student Safety and Violence Prevention Act, which expanded public school discrimination prohibitions to include sexual orientation.

ACLU attorney Martha Matthews said the lawsuit seeks monetary damages for the humiliation Ashly endured.

The lawsuit also seeks anti-discrimination training for staff, teachers and students in the Banning Unified School District. It calls for the district to report discrimination and harassment complaints.

"It's hard for me to imagine how anyone could think it was OK to do this to a child," Matthews said.

Staff writer Linda Lou contributed to this report.

Reach Sharyn Obsatz at (909) 368-9458 or sobsatz@pe.com

Reach Steve Fetbrandt at (909) 849-9872 or sfetbrandt@pe.com

119 posted on 12/18/2002 9:23:46 AM PST by Hemingway's Ghost
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To: Karsus
..........What are you going to do if the Libs ever take control and declare Christians a deviant group that should be made uncomfortable?..........
.
Karsus, get up from under that rug and look at the world around you, were there.


120 posted on 12/18/2002 9:26:47 AM PST by JMP
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To: Karsus
That is already happening or this discussion would not be.
121 posted on 12/18/2002 9:29:02 AM PST by DonaldC
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To: MadIvan
The girls parents pay for the school to operate. So basically, in your world, they have no say in how that school runs, even though it is running off of the parents' dime. You, as the central authority have made the decision for the girls as to what is good for them or not without their consent or consultation.

Since this is a public school, taxpayers pay for this school to operate. And incidentally, statistics being what they are, undoubtedly some homosexual taxpayers pay for this school to operate. In this jurisdiction exists a law "that bars public schools from discrimination based on sexual orientation." This case is about whether this law applies to this certain situation.

Do you think this school doesn't have to follow the law if it doesn't want to?

I wonder if it can be said in light of this that in the chest of every libertarian beats the heart of a statist?

Oh, I'm sure it could be said, but only by those who have no clue what they're talking about when it comes to political ideology.

122 posted on 12/18/2002 9:30:31 AM PST by Hemingway's Ghost
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
Since this is a public school, taxpayers pay for this school to operate. And incidentally, statistics being what they are, undoubtedly some homosexual taxpayers pay for this school to operate. In this jurisdiction exists a law "that bars public schools from discrimination based on sexual orientation." This case is about whether this law applies to this certain situation.

Why do the rights of homosexual taxpayers, who presumably do not send children to this school, and thus who have no stake in it, trump those of the parents who pay and send their kids to do so?

Do you think this school doesn't have to follow the law if it doesn't want to?

Not at all. This is not discrimination: the girl is not being prevented from attending classes, nor from getting an education, nor even in participating in any school activities. She is merely being asked to change elsewhere. Hardly the kind of thing that should provoke a march at Selma.

Oh, I'm sure it could be said, but only by those who have no clue what they're talking about when it comes to political ideology.

You're the one trying to foist a policy off on parents and students out of your smug idea of what is good for them or not. Don't get upset if I merely point out the contradiction between the principles you supposedly hold dear, and your shoving this policy down peoples' throats.

Ivan

123 posted on 12/18/2002 9:34:54 AM PST by MadIvan
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
..........It's all a part of growing up, is it not? There are some things that just are, and we've got to learn to get used to them. Getting used to them and taking them for what they are makes us stronger..............
.
Your whole argument is centered on a presumed normalcy for homosexuality and that with that assumption the "uncomfortable" girls in the locker-room should not be sheltered from something that is as normal as wings on birds and to shield them from the glories of diversity is to do them an injustice. Correct?
124 posted on 12/18/2002 9:35:02 AM PST by JMP
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To: truenospinzone
.........my concern is with the fact that public schools should place a higher premium on keeping teenagers from being in sexual situations........
.
Wrong again. Schools are supposed to teach academics. They are not laboratories for social experimentation. Go sit in the corner.
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Also, it is fact that homosexuality is deviant behavior. Can homosexuals replicate themselves? Seems cut and dried to me.
125 posted on 12/18/2002 9:46:15 AM PST by JMP
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To: JMP
Under what legal system (in the USA) is her behavior defined as deviant?
126 posted on 12/18/2002 9:49:28 AM PST by Karsus
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To: homeschool mama
People with *my* attitude?! Why should any of our daughters be subject to feeling uncomfortable in a locker room setting? Sounds like *you* think they should embrace the diversity.

You can get your nose bent out of joint all you like, but how about telling us how your solution doesn't advance the gay-agenda? Sparking a federal lawsuit that the girl will likely win, thereby setting a legal precedent that will be imposed on everyone (legislating the gay agenda from the bench), ohhhhh you'll stop 'em dead in their tracks that way, for sure....NOT!!

Your solution does NOTHING to stop the gay agenda. Nothing at all. It's counterproductive.

Yeah, you'd let the whole country be forced to live with another gay legal victory just because a passel of teenage girls said they "felt" uncomfortable in the locker room. Flat-chested teenage girls feel uncomfortable in the locker room, too, and don't want anyone staring at them, either. What are you gonna do? After all, we simply can't have teenage girls "feeling" uncomfortable in the locker room.

127 posted on 12/18/2002 9:51:25 AM PST by wimpycat
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To: homeschool mama
You do not have all of the facts and are making assumptions. She may well be a confused kid who has told her teacher about feelings she has about other girls in general and done nothing more. She may never have acted on any feeling in public of private. Once the school became aware of her situation, they where forced to act.

You can not compare her with a boy being in the "girls" locker room because she is a girl and there are a few physical differences.

As a mature man, I work with some very attractive women. Yet I manage to make throught the work day without drooling all over them. Just because she is attracted to girls, does not mean that she lusts after every girl she sees. Chances are, she is not sexually attracted to any of the girls in the class.

Lastly, lets remember that she is only 15 and is having to deal with alot of conflicting emotions. I know I was at 15. I'm 48 now and I still can't figure out the female mind. I don't think any man ever will. I say "She is a little girl, so treat her like one until someone complains that she made improper advances".

128 posted on 12/18/2002 9:51:43 AM PST by Jack of Diamonds
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To: Karsus
It is extremely well documented in the Blackstone law reference material. If you refer to the Alabama decision about 6 months ago regarding a homosexual child custody case, the judge quoted all the way from the Bible, through natural and common law sources and into U.S. law. I am looking for the link and if I find it, I will post it.
129 posted on 12/18/2002 9:52:39 AM PST by DonaldC
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To: Karsus
........Under what legal system (in the USA) is her behavior defined as deviant?..........
.
Actually the facts are set in even higher law, the natural law.
130 posted on 12/18/2002 9:58:58 AM PST by JMP
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To: MadIvan
Why do the rights of homosexual taxpayers, who presumably do not send children to this school, and thus who have no stake in it, trump those of the parents who pay and send their kids to do so?

Whose rights are being trumped? Since when does anyone (well not you, you're British) have a Constitutional right to not feel uncomfortable? The issue here is the enforcement of a law passed by the citizens of the jurisdiction in question which says that you cannot discriminate based on sexual orientation. Nobody's "rights" are in play here.

Not at all. This is not discrimination: the girl is not being prevented from attending classes, nor from getting an education, nor even in participating in any school activities. She is merely being asked to change elsewhere. Hardly the kind of thing that should provoke a march at Selma.

Have you read the story or either of the two other versions I posted on this thread? The girl was changing for gym class when another girl asked her if she were a lesbian. Before she could respond, another girl blurted out that she was. The gym teacher overheard it, and that night, the gym teacher contacted the girl's mother to tell her about the incident. The next day, the girl was asked to report to the principal's office instead of gym class.

Your claims are just wrong. The girl certainly was being prevented from attending classes, was being prevented from "getting an education" in so much as those who developed the curriculum consider physical education part of "getting an education," and she was being prevented from participating in a school activity---gym class. You completely whiffed.

Oh, I'm sure it could be said, but only by those who have no clue what they're talking about when it comes to political ideology.

You're the one trying to foist a policy off on parents and students out of your smug idea of what is good for them or not. Don't get upset if I merely point out the contradiction between the principles you supposedly hold dear, and your shoving this policy down peoples' throats.

Foist a policy upon people whose legislators made such a policy a state law? A law based on the notion that all people deserve to be treated equal? Oh, how horrible . . .

And how does this in any way support your notion that in ever libertarian chest beats the heart of a statist? You're a nice guy, Ivan, but you're slipping into some weird territory here.


131 posted on 12/18/2002 10:04:38 AM PST by Hemingway's Ghost
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To: JMP
Your post seems to directed at any whom would criticise homosexuality.

No, my post was directed at those who would phsyically attack homosexuals. Those people may not be "gay" themselves but they certainly are cowards. You never see some bruiser walk into a gay S&M bar in Chelsea, NYC and say "I hate fags! Bring it on!" No, it's always a multitude losers who gang up on some gay guy. How anyone can defend physical attacks on gays is beyond me, regardless on their views concerning the morality of homosexuality and the rightness of the homosexual agenda.

FWIW, I believe homosexuals should be afforded the SAME, not special rights as straights. That's it. No one should have to associate with them. (And they don't). No one should have to hire them, etc. I don't believe sex-ed (even straight, nevermind gay) should be taught in school, and if I ever have kids I'd either send them to a private school or home school.

As far as your elementary ploy of " your resistance to my agenda means your really one of us" is not worthy of this forum. Besides being sexually challenged you appear to be challenged mentally as well.

What a wonderful insult. Thank you so much. You'll excuse me if I refrain from doing likewise. Not that you should care, but I'm straight as an arrow. I never said anything of the sort. I merely expressed my distate with those who would physically attack gays.

132 posted on 12/18/2002 10:06:25 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: DonaldC
Found it!

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=al&vol=1002045&invol=2

133 posted on 12/18/2002 10:06:56 AM PST by DonaldC
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To: JMP
Your whole argument is centered on a presumed normalcy for homosexuality and that with that assumption the "uncomfortable" girls in the locker-room should not be sheltered from something that is as normal as wings on birds and to shield them from the glories of diversity is to do them an injustice. Correct?

Incorrect. My argument is centered on basic human fairness. The girl who was punished did nothing to warrant the punishment. She was punished because of what a few people thought might happen because of her sexual preference. Further, even if what those people thought might happen---that other girls might feel uncomfortable---actually happened, that alone was not enough to justify their punishment of this girl.

134 posted on 12/18/2002 10:09:54 AM PST by Hemingway's Ghost
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To: JMP
They are not laboratories for social experimentation

My point exactly. Making distinctions other than "People with Genitalia A dress here, people with Genitalia B dress here" IS social experimentation. Making exceptions based on anything other than the most basic biological guidelines IS social experimentation. Girls go here, guys go there. End of discussion. We don't care who you prefer to look at naked - you've got Genitalia B, so you go there. Making others uncomfortable doesn't factor into it in the least. Removing this girl because other girls are uncomfortable is just as ridiculous and liberal a concept as disallowing the word "Christmas" because it makes non-Christians uncomfortable. Feelings have nothing to do with it. She's a female; she dresses with the females. For either side to make any sort of distinction based on sexual preference is counterproductive to focusing on academics only.

And, again off-topic - see how I managed to make it through the entire post without some ridiculous bon mot like "Get it?" or "Go sit in the corner"? You might want to try it - you'll look like less of a self-important jackass.

135 posted on 12/18/2002 10:10:01 AM PST by truenospinzone
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To: William Terrell
Well, you can't say they're covering up latent homosexuality because there are so many tens of millions who either bash overtly or covertly.

See my post to JMP. When I said bashing, I meant phsyical bashing. I hope all we have here is a difference of semantics. I'm not sure 10s of millions "bash" phsyically. If they do, I'd really be shocked. Refusing to associate w/ homosexuals is not "bashing" in my book. Refusing to have "you might be gay" taught to 6th graders is not "bashing".

136 posted on 12/18/2002 10:10:40 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: JMP
And who decides what the 'natural law' is?

Some 'Christian' groups in America want to ban drinking which, seams to me, to be ok seeing that Jesus turned water into wine. If something like that can be argued about, how do you decide on deviant behavior? The USA is a nation of laws, not a nation of Biblical Law.
137 posted on 12/18/2002 10:19:00 AM PST by Karsus
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To: Karsus
Yes we are a nation of laws. Where do you think they came from. Just go to the link posted above and once you read through the case particulars, the judge outlined the sources going all the way back.....to the Bible.
138 posted on 12/18/2002 10:21:24 AM PST by DonaldC
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To: jjm2111
........my post was directed at those who would phsyically attack homosexuals.......
.
Look at it this way jjm2111. Nature generally has a way of taking care of just about anything you can imagine. Did you ever think that the aversion that literally all civilizations on the face of this earth have toward homosexuality may just be, just maybe, natures way of cleansing itself. Just a thought. Makes you think though, doesn't it. Maybe a good thrumping by little "losers" is pretty civilized compared to the stones and worst used by other cultures. Kinda makes you proud to be an American, doesn't it ol jjm2111.
139 posted on 12/18/2002 10:27:54 AM PST by JMP
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To: Hemingway's Ghost
.........The girl who was punished did nothing to warrant the punishment.........what a few people thought might happen because of her sexual preference.........
.
See, thats the whole in your argument. This girl made a choice and is upset because she had to live with the ramifications of that choice. You liberals always think that there should not be any accountability for your choices. Simple, make a choice and be prepared to live with the consiquences. Not so complicated after all is it.
140 posted on 12/18/2002 10:35:55 AM PST by JMP
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To: JMP
This is from a few posts up. Please point out where she made a choice, it looks to me like she did nothing wrong.

"Ashly said only a few friends knew she was a lesbian. But one day, she said, Gill overheard a student say Ashly was a lesbian. Ashly said she was told by the teacher: "Nobody needs to know that."

That night, the lawsuit said, the teacher called Ashly's mother, Amelia, and said some of the students felt uncomfortable with Ashly being in the locker room.

Ashly's mother asked whether Ashly had ever acted inappropriately, the suit said. The teacher said, "No," and agreed to call if there were any problems. She did not call again, the suit said.

The next day, according to the suit, the teacher told Ashly to report to the principal's office instead of gym class.

Ashly's mother came to school to discuss the schedule change and found out her daughter had been sitting in the principal's office during gym period for a week and a half, the suit said. She was told the principal had decided to bar Ashly from attending gym, the suit alleges. "
141 posted on 12/18/2002 10:43:38 AM PST by Karsus
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To: JMP
See, thats the whole in your argument. This girl made a choice and is upset because she had to live with the ramifications of that choice. You liberals always think that there should not be any accountability for your choices. Simple, make a choice and be prepared to live with the consiquences. Not so complicated after all is it.

The girl made a choice, however misguided you or anyone else think her choice was. The law states that people who make this choice cannot be punished by being discriminated against for making this choice. This case is about determining whether or not she was.

Read the stories---the girl didn't do anything. She was punished for what "might" happen. Do you think being barred from attending gym class is an appropriate consequence for choosing lesbianism? Arguably the law doesn't think so . . .

Further, "you liberals"? What the hell do you mean by that?


142 posted on 12/18/2002 10:44:40 AM PST by Hemingway's Ghost
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To: JMP
This girl made a choice and is upset because she had to live with the ramifications of that choice. You liberals always think that there should not be any accountability for your choices. Simple, make a choice and be prepared to live with the consiquences. Not so complicated after all is it.

The school made a choice to punish a girl who did nothing wrong, and will live with the consequences...and then, through legal precedent, we'll all live with the consequences, a gay legal victory. YOU will be forced to live with the consequences.

It cuts both ways. Not so very complicated, is it? Unwarranted punishment is just life, isn't it?

143 posted on 12/18/2002 10:44:47 AM PST by wimpycat
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To: JMP
So let me get this straight.....

Five Jets fans beat up a Dophin's fan and that's assault.

Five straight guys beat up a gay guy and thats "natures [sic] way of cleansing itself."

Makes you think though, doesn't it.

Sure does. Makes me think you're smoking a little too much of the Libertarians' stash.

To me nothing is more cowardly and lacking in honor than ganging up on someone for kicks.

144 posted on 12/18/2002 10:45:24 AM PST by jjm2111
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To: DonaldC
Who gets to decide what the Bible means? If you have 'Christian' groups wanting to ban drinking when one of the miracles that Jesus did was to turn water into wine, yet you still have people say that ANY amount of drink is sinful.
145 posted on 12/18/2002 10:46:52 AM PST by Karsus
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To: truenospinzone
I understand your point but still think that you are wrong. We have a difference of opinion.
.
As far as.......You might want to try it - you'll look like less of a self-important jackass...........
.
A lot of the opinions expressed here makes it hard to be humble at times. I use these little qwips to help myself from saying what I'm really thinking. Don't take offense.

146 posted on 12/18/2002 10:48:43 AM PST by JMP
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To: JMP
A lot of the opinions expressed here makes it hard to be humble at times. I use these little qwips to help myself from saying what I'm really thinking. Don't take offense.

If you made him feel uncomfortable, I'm afraid you'll have to go to a different thread. We can't have folks feeling uncomfortable around here.

(Levity)

147 posted on 12/18/2002 10:52:47 AM PST by wimpycat
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To: Karsus
I did not mention Biblical law. I generally don't like to see people wear their religion on their sleeve. Natural law is the law of the physical world. All things are subject to it. Nobody decides, it just is. The inability of homosexuals to propagate themselves, thus removing the deviant trait from the species, is a good illustration of natural law. Since you brought it up, Biblical law mirrors the natural law perfectly. Makes me think it was by design.
148 posted on 12/18/2002 10:57:57 AM PST by JMP
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To: Karsus
I understand your point. Although I believe that drinking like anything in excess is bad, I do not prescribe to the opinion that some have that Jesus made grape juice (even though I have not done an . In fact, some of the apostles spoke of its benefits by discussing how it was good for calming an upset stomach. It should be noted however, that there are some people who should obstain from it all together, like pastors and deacons, for example. So Jesus made wine. If people set their standard of conduct high enough to not drink at all, good for them. As far as homosexuality/lesbianism, the Bible is extremely clear, it is an obimination...Leviticus 20:13. And Jesus did not turn a hetero into a homosexual.

As far as who makes the judgement, in the end it is the self will of the individual. If I choose not to drink, so be it. If I choose to be hetero, so be it. Should I be able to force you to do either, or to pay for my consequences? I think not.

This comes down to what is a society going to cling to and what it is going to condemn. Should we be accomidate all the wishes of the homosexual? We don't the drunk! So if folks want to engage in this behavior, so be it. But don't make the rest of society (the better than 95%) do out of the way to make the 5% feel warm and fuzzy.....
149 posted on 12/18/2002 11:17:38 AM PST by DonaldC
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To: Karsus
..........Please point out where she made a choice, it looks to me like she did nothing wrong.........
.
Karsus, The choice was to become a lesbian. If this was not a choice then the young lady has more serious problems than her hurt feelings to deal with. After all, to decide at the tender age of 14 that all hopes of a normal heterosexual lifestyle are impossible to achieve, then she is experienced beyond her years or emotional capacity.

150 posted on 12/18/2002 11:19:35 AM PST by JMP
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