HS Lesbian Sues Over Locker Ban

NY Post ^ | 2002-12-18 | Reuters

[Lorenb420]

December 18, 2002 -- LOS ANGELES - A 15-year-old student who was banned from the girl's locker room at her school because she is a lesbian filed a federal civil-rights lawsuit yesterday in a case that tests the rights of gay students.

[MadIvan]

So then wouldn't a more perfect world assign locker rooms based upon sexual preference vice actual sexual equipment?

Sophistry. Since the Victorian Era at least, this was precisely the division - it was considered unseemly to have the two sexes changing in front of each other for peep show reasons. The reason why homosexuals did not get their "own" rooms was because until very late in the 20th century, while homosexuality existed, it was not something that was out in the open, thus no provision was made when this societal norm was created.

No parents other than the lesbian girl's mother were consulted in this case. Why do you continue to exist they were---that they rose up and demanded their daughters be allowed to change for gym class in a lesbian-free environment?

You're missing the point. You are basically saying that the other girls and their parents have no say in this. I am saying they do.

Ivan

[wimpycat]

I wasn't referring to this forum, but to how you would act if you were one of the players in this article. What would you have done if you were the gym teacher, or the principle, or one of the parents? That's what I was talking about.

This forum? We're in agreement on that.

[Ben Bolt]

I'll by that .. It just seems way to premature to know of this much less deciding she is a lesbian . I need some fresh ~ aire .

[Commander8]

I'm surprised this is going on in LA. In my neck of the woods(Modesto, Ca) lesbian chic is now a trendy thing in high schools. It's practically commonplace to see girls kissing in the halls. My mother actually had to pull my sister out of her school and put her on independent study so she wouldn't be exposed that sort of thing. That was four years ago. There is a gay club at my old high school and my sister and her friends have told me horror stories about aggressive lesbians in the athletic programs.

[Hermann the Cherusker]

I see. You live in one of those primitive bubba neighborhoods which prides itself in its insensitivity. Any vacancies?

Fox Chase, in NE Philly. And there are a few double and triple lots, if you can talk the owner into selling ... No for sale signs up right now though.

At least we don't kill them, like they do down in Fishtown. Fishtown makes us and Mayfair look enlightened.

[NeoCaveman]

Lesbians in the locker room? How did we miss this thread?

Sappho alert!

[Hemingway's Ghost]

I meant it. You were doing real good right up to the end, providing good counter arguments, then you just folded.

I meant it, too.

[xsmommy]

I wonder if it can be said in light of this that in the chest of every libertarian beats the heart of a statist?

oooh ivan, hit 'em where it hurts... ; )

[Hemingway's Ghost]

Sophistry. Since the Victorian Era at least, this was precisely the division - it was considered unseemly to have the two sexes changing in front of each other for peep show reasons. The reason why homosexuals did not get their "own" rooms was because until very late in the 20th century, while homosexuality existed, it was not something that was out in the open, thus no provision was made when this societal norm was created.

Regardless, homosexuality is now out in the open so your Victorian Era sensibilities and your rationale for sexually segregated changing areas no longer apply. What you're arguing for, then, is a new societal norm where it's considered unseemly to have people who are potentially sexually attractive to each other changing in front of each other. Isn't this the logical endpoint of your argument?

No parents other than the lesbian girl's mother were consulted in this case. Why do you continue to exist they were---that they rose up and demanded their daughters be allowed to change for gym class in a lesbian-free environment?

You're missing the point. You are basically saying that the other girls and their parents have no say in this. I am saying they do.

What "say" could they possibly have? Because their daughters feel uncomfortable changing in front of a lesbian girl, exactly what rules or order should the parents of the uncomfortable girls have the power and authority to enforce?

[Hemingway's Ghost]

oooh ivan, hit 'em where it hurts... ; )

Yeah, it made tons of sense, too . . . (Moe Howard whistle)

[xsmommy]

well i don't know, HG... i was sort of undecided, as a statist myself, as to whether to take umbrage at being equated with a libertarian....; )

[Hemingway's Ghost]

well i don't know, HG... i was sort of undecided, as a statist myself, as to whether to take umbrage at being equated with a libertarian....; )

Yes, but you're an ersatz statist---you're only into it for the leather chaps, the handcuffs, the blindfold, and the bullwhip. Be honest.

[MadIvan]

Regardless, homosexuality is now out in the open so your Victorian Era sensibilities and your rationale for sexually segregated changing areas no longer apply. What you're arguing for, then, is a new societal norm where it's considered unseemly to have people who are potentially sexually attractive to each other changing in front of each other. Isn't this the logical endpoint of your argument?

So you want to abolish the idea of segregated changing rooms altogether? How interesting.

What "say" could they possibly have? Because their daughters feel uncomfortable changing in front of a lesbian girl, exactly what rules or order should the parents of the uncomfortable girls have the power and authority to enforce?

As they pay for the school, they are the "stakeholders" in that school. If a policy is going to be decided, there must be some form of consultation of the stakeholders for their approval. It is this consultation which you so stridently disapprove of.

Ivan

[xsmommy]

shush, you! you'll blow my cover...

[maxwell]

Bwahaha... I saw a clip on CNN about this last night in the bar-- all my buddies started saying "Is that a chick or a dude? I don't know, I can't tell" and there she was for all the nation to see in all her humiliated butch-cut pimply-faced glory...

[Hemingway's Ghost]

So you want to abolish the idea of segregated changing rooms altogether? How interesting.

Absolutely not. I'm arguing that the "uncomfortableness" of others is not a just or even a sound basis for punishing a different person, especially when the different person has done nothing wrong. It would be another thing altogether if the lesbian girl was harassing her heterosexual classmates by leering at them, etc., or whatever scenario a prurient mind wants to construct. But she wasn't doing anything of the sort---she was being punished solely because of who she is.

As they pay for the school, they are the "stakeholders" in that school. If a policy is going to be decided, there must be some form of consultation of the stakeholders for their approval. It is this consultation which you so stridently disapprove of.

Hardly. This consultation was done statutorily when California passed a law saying that its institutions couldn't discriminate based on sexual orientation. I think that's pretty clear---you don't?

[MadIvan]

I'm arguing that the "uncomfortableness" of others is not a just or even a sound basis for punishing a different person

Girls are uncomfortable changing in front of boys. That's why the segregation occured in the first place, precisely because of the sexual element involved, open leering or not. You are basically saying that lesbians have more rights than boys to a potential peep show in the ladies locker room and the other girls cannot do anything about it. You may not intend it, but that is the effect nonetheless.

Hardly. This consultation was done statutorily when California passed a law saying that its institutions couldn't discriminate based on sexual orientation. I think that's pretty clear---you don't?

The same statutes also say that you can't discriminate based on gender, but still separate men's and women's changing rooms remain in spite of the law. Why? Because it is an accepted convention that changing rooms should be separate to prevent the "peep show" element which I've described.

Ivan

[Hemingway's Ghost]

You are basically saying that lesbians have more rights than boys to a potential peep show in the ladies locker room and the other girls cannot do anything about it. You may not intend it, but that is the effect nonetheless.

Not at all, unless you figure that sexual stimulation in non-sexual situations is some sort of entitlement "right." You can't seem to come to grips with the fact that this girl was punished for who she was, not what she did. How, exactly, is that just? And again---why is anyone's comfort level a justifiable reason to punish someone else?

The same statutes also say that you can't discriminate based on gender, but still separate men's and women's changing rooms remain in spite of the law. Why? Because it is an accepted convention that changing rooms should be separate to prevent the "peep show" element which I've described.

Women change in womens' locker rooms and men change in mens' locker rooms. Lesbians don't change in lesbian-only womens' locker rooms, homosexual men don't change in gay-only mens' locker rooms, straight women don't change in straight women only locker rooms, and straight men don't change in straight men only locker rooms. Or do they in England?

[MadIvan]

Not at all, unless you figure that sexual stimulation in non-sexual situations is some sort of entitlement "right."

Changing rooms under normal circumstances are non-sexual rooms. But they are segregated anyway because of the sexual context, a fact you cannot deny.

You can't seem to come to grips with the fact that this girl was punished for who she was, not what she did.

Go tell it to Oprah. I am dealing with what the resulting policy should be. The sum total of listening to you is as follows - heterosexual boys, rightly, are denied the potential of a "peep show" in their changing facilities. Lesbian girls on the other hand, are not. If you cannot see how this is unequal, then you have a problem - you go on about justice and treating people fairly. Think of it from that angle.

Women change in womens' locker rooms and men change in mens' locker rooms. Lesbians don't change in lesbian-only womens' locker rooms, homosexual men don't change in gay-only mens' locker rooms, straight women don't change in straight women only locker rooms, and straight men don't change in straight men only locker rooms. Or do they in England?

You're going around in circles. I've said to you many times why that segregation was done in the first place. You may want to pretend it has something to do with mere anatomy. The segregation of men and women's changing rooms has to do with the peep show element. You are basically saying that gays and lesbians are entitled to this "peep show element" that heterosexual men and women are denied. And you call yourself an advocate of "equality".

Ivan

[homeschool mama]

I'm still waiting to hear if a friend of mine (who teaches in the neighboring district of Banning) has heard anything more pertaining to this situation.

I did do a search on the school...a middle school for grades 6-8. Interesting that a 15 year old girl (the girl in question) attends a middle school. My daughter is in 7th grade and is 12. Hmmm.

There is certainly more than is currently being let known. I'll wait to hear from my friend before commenting further.

Have a good day, HG.