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Continuing The Bigotry
Captain's Quarters Blog ^ | 06/10/07 | Ed Morrisey

Posted on 06/10/2007 7:24:29 PM PDT by Reaganesque

Sally Denton uses today's Los Angeles Times op-ed page as a launching pad for the movie based on her book, "American Massacre: The Tragedy at Mountain Meadows, September 1857," and as a means to propagate more anti-Mormon bigotry at the expense of Mitt Romney. Denton insists that Romney has to respond about the nature of his faith if he expects to win the nomination for the Presidency -- and uses a lot of 19th-century examples to "prove" her case:

MITT ROMNEY'S Mormonism threatens his presidential candidacy in the same way that John F. Kennedy's Catholicism did when he ran for president in 1960. Overt and covert references to Romney's religion — subtle whispering as well as unabashed inquiries about the controversial sect he belongs to — plague his campaign. None of his responses so far have silenced the skeptics.

Recent polls indicate that from 25% to 35% of registered voters have said they would not consider voting for a Mormon for president, and conventional wisdom from the pundits suggests that Romney's biggest hurdle is his faith. Everyone seems eager to make his Mormonism an issue, from blue state secularists to red state evangelicals who view the religion as a non-Christian cult.

All of which raises the question: Are we religious bigots if we refuse to vote for a believing Mormon? Or is it perfectly sensible and responsible to be suspicious of a candidate whose creed seems outside the mainstream or tinged with fanaticism?

Ironically, Romney is the only candidate in the race (from either party) who has expressed discomfort with the idea of religion infecting the national dialogue. While his GOP rivals have been pandering to the evangelical arm of the party, Romney actually committed himself (during the first Republican debate) to the inviolable separation of church and state.

First, Denton is hardly an unbiased pundit in this regard. She's flogging a book and a movie about an atrocity committed by Mormons 150 years ago. For Denton, 1857 is relevant to 2007, but for most Americans. The suggestion that Romney needs to answer for Brigham Young would be as silly as saying that Democrats have to answer for Stephen Douglas or that Lutherans today have to answer for the anti-Semitic rants of Martin Luther.

Denton first off would have people believe that all Mormons are "tinged with fanaticism," but does nothing to advance that case. She discusses the beginnings of their church in great detail, but her history lessons appear to end at 1857. In the only mentions of any connection to the present, she uses the HBO series Big Love and Warren Jeffs, neither of which has any connection to the modern Mormon church or to Romney's faith. Both the fictional account in Big Love and the unfortunately non-fiction and despicable Jeffs involve polygamist cults -- and in the TV series, are showed as in mortal opposition to the Mormons.

Denton includes this helpful instruction at the half-way point:

It's not a church's eccentric past that makes a candidate's religion relevant today, but its contemporary doctrines. (And it's worth noting that polygamy and blood atonement, among other practices, are no longer condoned by the official Mormon church hierarchy.)

So what contemporary doctrines does Romney need to explain? Denton never says. Instead, she spends her time writing about how Joseph Smith once declared his intention to run for President -- in 1844. She discusses how John C. Fremont's candidacy died on the rumor that he was Catholic -- in 1856. She mentions 1960, in which John Kennedy dealt with anti-Catholic bigotry, but only barely notes that he prevailed over it -- and that was almost 50 years ago.

Denton then frames the question that she feels Romney has to answer:

Do you, like the prophet you follow, believe in a theocratic nation state? All the rest is pyrotechnics.

Unfortunately for Denton, Romney has answered this question every time it gets asked. And somewhat incoherently, Denton appears to forget that she herself acknowledges this near the beginning of the column:

While his GOP rivals have been pandering to the evangelical arm of the party, Romney actually committed himself (during the first Republican debate) to the inviolable separation of church and state.

Romney has no need to enter into the field of religious apologetics in his campaign for the presidency, no more than does Harry Reid in order to run the Senate. He certainly has no guilt to expiate on behalf of a massacre committed almost a century before his birth, and for people like Warren Jeffs who do not have any connection to the Mormon church. In other words, Denton has taken up space at the LA Times to exercise her bigotry and to not-so-coincidentally sell a few books and movie tickets. She and the LA Times should be ashamed.

UPDATE: One commenter suggests that people opposed Keith Ellison on the basis of his religion. Er, not quite. We opposed him on the basis of his association with the notoriously anti-Semitic group Nation of Islam and its leader, Louis Farrakhan, and his association with CAIR, which has supported terrorist groups like Hamas. If Romney had spoken at Warren Jeffs' compound for political donations, then the analogy would be apt. Ellison's problem isn't his religion but the company he keeps, politically, a fact that he and his apologists like to wrap in a false cloak of religious antagonism.


TOPICS: Religion; TV/Movies
KEYWORDS: apologetics; backlash; bigotry; la; ldschurch; mountainmeadows; romney; times
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To: colorcountry

No I don’t think I call FC furryball that was MGT, I call Fast Coyote, FastCootie

those are my endearment names


101 posted on 06/10/2007 9:29:08 PM PDT by restornu
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To: SIDENET
good point.

you might also ask how nonbelievers should be teated in a just society (i.e., one run according to the beliefs of the persn in question.

102 posted on 06/10/2007 9:29:48 PM PDT by drhogan
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To: colorcountry
On May 21, I posted a thread that had, as it's original topic, Mitt Romney's use of the word "golly." Twenty-two days, 954 replies and 5,708 views later, this thread is still active with you and others arguing Mormon theology. I can only draw the conclusion from this that anything and everything I post will be considered to be "inflammatory." Therefore, taking your sensibilities into account when deciding to post is not, shall we say, practical. As to name calling, there has been plenty of that on both sides here so you are not the only victim.
103 posted on 06/10/2007 9:31:21 PM PDT by Reaganesque (Romney 2008)
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To: restornu

Those names are funny. :-)

It really is up to the receiver as to whether or not they are “endearing.”

I still love you resty! I’m going to bed now.


104 posted on 06/10/2007 9:32:58 PM PDT by colorcountry ( We need to move away from the Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Duncan Hunter))
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To: Reaganesque

I’m not actively posting on that thread. If you go back to the beginning of that thread, you will see I entered the discussions on good terms having nothing to do with Mormonism. (I posted a picture of Jim Nabors....goolllyyy)remember. Then I was called “anti-Mormon” or bigot or some such (I’ve come to pretty much ignore the name-calling, it is so Kindergarten.)


105 posted on 06/10/2007 9:36:20 PM PDT by colorcountry ( We need to move away from the Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Duncan Hunter))
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To: rickdylan

You are exactly right about most Mormons not giving a rat’s a** about theology. In fact, most non-Mormons don’t give a rat’s a** about theology. Most people simply are comfortable in believing something about a God and a possiblity of living after death etc. They don’t have any in-depth knowledge about their own denomination, and see most “American” religions as just variations of the same theme.

Do you know why Romney chose to be a Mormon? I’ve never talked to the man, but I can tell you why, because it’s the same reason 95 percent of us are whatever we are. He didn’t choose to be Mormon — his parents chose it for him. And like most people, he was indoctrinated into believing it would upset his parents, his other family members, and probably God if he didn’t just sign up for Mormonism too. Fear and guilt. Whether your parents intended to use those weapons against you or not, they were used against you in your youth. Your theology most likely is the religion of your parents. People are sheep.


106 posted on 06/10/2007 9:37:17 PM PDT by BuckeyeForever
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To: colorcountry

Goodnight CC have sweet dream of two boys on bikes with name tags!:)


107 posted on 06/10/2007 9:39:57 PM PDT by restornu
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To: Reaganesque
On May 21, I posted a thread that had, as it's original topic, Mitt Romney's use of the word "golly."

Oh yes, and the title of that thread was "Romney the Gollygamist" or something very much like that.

Gollygamist is a direct reference to Polygamy and the controversy that surrounds Romney because of the early LDS practice of plural marriage. THAT is why Mormonism became part of the discussion....it didn't just come out of nowhere as some might presume.

108 posted on 06/10/2007 9:40:13 PM PDT by colorcountry ( We need to move away from the Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Duncan Hunter))
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To: restornu

LOL.

They ARE sweet boys. I still sometimes remember them in my prayers. They are under so much stress, toil, strain, danger, and what they consider loving service. They deserve all of our prayers.


109 posted on 06/10/2007 9:41:44 PM PDT by colorcountry ( We need to move away from the Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Duncan Hunter))
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To: BuckeyeForever
Your theology most likely is the religion of your parents. People are sheep.

Luckily for us sheep, there are those brave thinkers who have moved beyond their personal upbringing and have transcended themselves. If only we could all be so lucky. Write a book. Show us the way.

110 posted on 06/10/2007 9:45:10 PM PDT by the808bass
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To: BuckeyeForever; restornu; Reaganesque; sevenbak

Would any of you like to set buckeye straight about how strongly Romney believes in Mormonism.

He was a Bishop and Stake President which is a high ecclisiastical position. He is a Temple endowed member which means he has passed an interview regarding not only his strong faith but his knowledge and obedience as well.

No, Romney is NOT a fly-by-night, lukewarm believer by birth, he is a very staunch Mormon.

Bed, I’ve got to go to bed.


111 posted on 06/10/2007 9:45:28 PM PDT by colorcountry ( We need to move away from the Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Duncan Hunter))
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To: BuckeyeForever

That is not how it works for all Bucky I am converting and did my own homework before I was baptized!

I have a witness by the Power of the Holy Ghost and so I did investigate the Church and those who are successful in the Church also had their personal revelation.

True some are there because of the family but one would be miserable if they did not have witness that Church was true and find a way to justify their leaving!

I am the only member from my family.

Most LDS are very familiar with their standard works and than some there is a whole lot of independent studying going on.

I can tell you Romney is a practicing LDS

No sheepo here!:)


112 posted on 06/10/2007 9:53:26 PM PDT by restornu
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To: JRochelle
I swear, every time I log onto FR, there is a Mormon/Romney thread going. It boggles the mind...

Well, very very very few people seem to know that Romney is a Mormon. And almost no one knows what they really believe.
113 posted on 06/11/2007 2:17:14 AM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudi & McVain: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: Reaganesque; colorcountry; Religion Moderator
Reaganesque: On May 21, I posted a thread that had, as it's original topic, Mitt Romney's use of the word "golly." Twenty-two days, 954 replies and 5,708 views later, this thread is still active with you and others arguing Mormon theology.

Just imagine if he said "Gosh"!

Riots, tsunamis, polygamy, recession, it would truly be hell on earth.

You know, this kind of thing really make our forum look like idiots. And it's just a few members who think it must be "debated" and the voters warned about Mormons.

Anyone who cares about this that much knows Romney is Mormon, knows what Mormons are and will cast their vote against him. So posts like this at FR only make us look stupid. Or like we're some rabid anti-Mormon site.

Personally, I think it harms our ability to recruit new FReepers and it almost certainly will hurt our fundraising.
114 posted on 06/11/2007 2:36:48 AM PDT by George W. Bush (Rudi & McVain: tough on terror, scared of Iowa)
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To: colorcountry
"He was a Bishop and Stake President which is a high ecclesiastical position. He is a Temple endowed member which means he has passed an interview regarding not only his strong faith but his knowledge and obedience as well."

Oh, now THIS is really irritating. Now I'm more annoyed at Romney than I was. My problem is not that Romney is "a Mormon." My problem with him is that he isn't Mormon ENOUGH. Theologically I think the Mormons are off in the weeds. This wouldn't in and of itself stop me from voting for a Mormon. Had I lived in Utah, I'd have no problem voting for Orin Hatch. I look at what a man or woman DOES, and I don't automatically assume that they follow everything accord to "brand name." It's how a person actually walks the walk.... For instance Rudy's "I don't personally believe in abortion, but blah, blah, blah, I'll uphold abortion rights" STINKS in my opinion, and he is supposed to be the same religion as I am. I'm voting for the Baptist, Hunter. Because when push comes to shove he VOTES the right way on the values. HOW he got there, is his business. THAT he got there is what's important. I don't trust Mitt in the sense that he's been a blow dried slickster trying to get in good with the creeps from Massachusetts and for years he sold out on the prolife position. Now he's claiming to be prolife -- wanna bet he'll move back left again if he gets the nomination? As a Mormon, he SHOULD have been prolife all along. He wasn't. No one is perfect, but he compromised a core belief. Nuts to him. Again, not because he is a Mormon, but frankly, because he isn't a GOOD ENOUGH Mormon with some consistency on core values.

And as long as Wolf BLITZED gets to ask religious questions, I really wanna know how Barrack HUSSEIN Obama's early religious beliefs affect him, and why he supposed turned on that headhacker religion. Is he REALLY "done with it?" Or just "posing." And if that's racist...or bigoted...too bad. I won't vote for an atheist and I'm not voting for a headhacker supporter. REAL Jew, REAL Protestant, REAL Mormon, REAL Orthodox, REAL Catholic, REAL Mormon, no problem. REAL wishywashy? Forget it. I'm not having it.

115 posted on 06/11/2007 3:44:43 AM PDT by gemoftheocean (...geez, this all seems so straight forward and logical to me...)
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To: All
Here's an excerpt of Hugh Hewitt's interview with Jon Voight. Note that even Jon Voight's admits the movie's depiction of the events is "Poetry" and that presenting evidence in favor of Brigham Young's innonence would ruin that purpose of the film.

HH: We’ll do you movies later in the interview. I want to get back to Benedict. You know, you’ve done this movie September Dawn about an atrocity 150 years ago in a mountain meadow in Utah. And from that, you’re drawing a lot of lessons. You’ve been out there a lot talking a lot about this. How does the movie depict Brigham Young’s letter let them pass, the letter that many of his defenders say exonerates him from complicity? How does the movie treat it?



JV: You know something? The movie does not get into that. The movie…it is not a court session, you know, and I don’t really want to get into a court session about it. In a sense, that’s for others to do. What we’ve depicted in the movie, I think is very accurate from all that I have read. And of course, when we’re dealing with a film, we’re dealing with a metaphor of some sort, or you know, poetry of some sort, where you have to condense things down to another form. And then you have to determine, if you’re an artist, you have to determine whether that represents the truth. And in my judgment, it does represent the truth, this film under two hours, represents the events as they happened.


It will be interesting to see who here holds this film in high esteem or not. Who will on this forum will coveniently ignore the facts just because a film fits his or her agenda?

116 posted on 06/11/2007 4:57:02 AM PDT by nowandlater
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To: colorcountry
What’s good for the goose.....

Go goose yourSELF!!

You must hate us!

--MormonDude

117 posted on 06/11/2007 6:03:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: All

And I am a p**


118 posted on 06/11/2007 6:04:17 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: BuckeyeForever
You are exactly right about most Mormons not giving a rat’s a** about theology. In fact, most non-Mormons don’t give a rat’s a** about theology. Most people simply are comfortable in believing something about a God and a possiblity of living after death etc. They don’t have any in-depth knowledge about their own denomination, and see most “American” religions as just variations of the same theme.

Amen to THIS!


NIV Hosea 4:5-6
5. You stumble day and night, and the prophets stumble with you. So I will destroy your mother--
6. my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.

119 posted on 06/11/2007 6:07:21 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: George W. Bush
Just imagine if he said "Gosh"!

Indeed!!


120 posted on 06/11/2007 6:29:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: George W. Bush
Personally, I think it harms our ability to recruit new FReepers and it almost certainly will hurt our fundraising.

Gideon only had 300!

121 posted on 06/11/2007 6:30:27 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Reaganesque

Is it bigotry to not vote for a Mormon?


122 posted on 06/11/2007 6:31:14 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.)
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To: restornu; colorcountry
No I don’t think I call FC furryball that was MGT, I call Fast Coyote, FastCootie

It was Enosh you called "furryball". On the "Jesus is Lord" thread #1,034 posted on 06/07/2007. You said to colorcountry "You just a big piehole," #800 posted on 06/06/2007. You are very creative ;)

123 posted on 06/11/2007 6:32:10 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 ("You know," he says, "I haven't spent a dime yet." FDT, June 9, 2007)
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To: nowandlater
Who will on this forum will coveniently ignore the facts ...

And AWFUL lot do!

124 posted on 06/11/2007 6:32:14 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: nowandlater
Who will on this forum will coveniently ignore the facts ...

An AWFUL lot do!

125 posted on 06/11/2007 6:32:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: JRochelle

You want to be added to the FIP, JR? Just FReepmail me ;)


126 posted on 06/11/2007 6:34:13 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 ("You know," he says, "I haven't spent a dime yet." FDT, June 9, 2007)
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To: George W. Bush; JRochelle
I swear, every time I log onto FR, there is a Mormon/Romney thread going. It boggles the mind...

Well, very very very few people seem to know that Romney is a Mormon. And almost no one knows what they really believe.

If you will notice, most of the threads are posted by Romney supporters. It's strange that they can't find articles that concentrate on other aspects of his candidacy to post here. I don't understand it.

127 posted on 06/11/2007 6:39:23 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 ("You know," he says, "I haven't spent a dime yet." FDT, June 9, 2007)
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To: Reaganesque

There are more than enough atrocities, committed by the various churches or in the name of churches throughout history, to go around.


128 posted on 06/11/2007 6:47:31 AM PDT by ampat
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To: Elsie

What is a p**?

LOL

Is it a term of endearment, do you think?


129 posted on 06/11/2007 6:47:56 AM PDT by colorcountry ( We need to move away from the Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Duncan Hunter))
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To: CheyennePress; JCEccles; Rameumptom; Reaganesque; redgirlinabluestate; Saundra Duffy; sevenbak; ...

The Last Straw at the Los Angeles Times
by Arlene Peck

The worst so-called “journalism.”

For years, I’ve been a working member of the press. There was a time when I looked with pride at my life’s accomplishments. Of course, those were the days when such men as Walter Cronkite and Edward R. Morrow were the role models. In recent years, I’ve become increasingly alarmed with the trend that I’ve seen among those who consider themselves ‘reporters,’ as well as those talking heads on the television’s nightly news programs. We listen to dumbed-down, usually attractive, post-puberty ‘experts’ who can only speak in sound bites before they’re interrupted by their co-anchor in the box. They talk about the Middle-East, but I’ll bet if you put a map in front of them and asked them where that is, they wouldn’t have a clue.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1848251/posts


130 posted on 06/11/2007 6:49:41 AM PDT by restornu
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To: colorcountry

BTW, who came in second in that straw poll.....


131 posted on 06/11/2007 6:50:52 AM PDT by billbears (Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. --Santayana)
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To: Plutarch

“Since this thread is actually about Romney’s Mormon religion, I guess it can’t be a hijack. That is until you all get deep deep into theology, which I imagine will be soon enough.”

But isn’t that our sides point, really? Mitt Romney cannot dare discuss his theological roots, not the history of his church, for fear of being laughed at by the world. It is as if the entire core of his being is off limits.

Seer Stones anyone? Racial bigotry anyone? Celestial wives, but no polygamy on Earth, just your goal in heaven?

It’s a big Pink Elephant standing in the middle of the living room. No matter how hard you guys try, it is going to be impossible to talk around it without your side eventually resorting to jackboot censorship.


132 posted on 06/11/2007 7:08:49 AM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: billbears

Ron Paul ....

http://home.utgop.org/page.php?page_id=4

Presidential Straw Poll Results
Mitt Romney 1042 (80.46%)
Ron Paul 70 (5.41%)
Rudy Giuliani 57 (4.40%)
John McCain 54 (4.17%)
Tom Tancredo 19 (1.47%)
Tommy Thompson 16 (1.24%)
Fred Thompson (write-in) 15 (1.16%)
Mike Huckabee 12 (0.93%)
Sam Brownback 8 (0.62%)
Newt Gingrich (write-in) 1 (0.08%)
Stan Lockhart (write-in) 1 (0.08%)

Don’t you find it interesting that Duncan Hunter didn’t even show up on the list? AND I voted for him. What’s going on in the Republican Party in Utah?


133 posted on 06/11/2007 7:10:36 AM PDT by colorcountry ( We need to move away from the Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Duncan Hunter))
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To: colorcountry

Presidential Straw Poll Results
Mitt Romney 1042 (80.46%)
Ron Paul 70 (5.41%)
Rudy Giuliani 57 (4.40%)
John McCain 54 (4.17%)
Tom Tancredo 19 (1.47%)
Tommy Thompson 16 (1.24%)
Fred Thompson (write-in) 15 (1.16%)
Mike Huckabee 12 (0.93%)
Sam Brownback 8 (0.62%)
Newt Gingrich (write-in) 1 (0.08%)
Stan Lockhart (write-in) 1 (0.08%)

My, my, my, my. You have evidently stumbled on evidence of MORMON BIGOTRY. Only Mormon bigots would poll nearly exclusively for the Mormon candidate. Evidently it is alright to reflexively vote FOR a candidate based on religion, but to vote against them for the same reason is verboten.


134 posted on 06/11/2007 7:20:43 AM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: FastCoyote

People (even conservatives) turn a blind eye to the political cliamate in Utah. This is definetly a case of Mormon bigotry.

They never even announced the results of the poll at the convention, everyone knew what the outcome would be. The party waited and posted the outcome on their internet site.

Mormons if you’re not embarrassed by this poll, you should be.


135 posted on 06/11/2007 7:24:45 AM PDT by colorcountry ( We need to move away from the Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Duncan Hunter))
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To: colorcountry
Don’t you find it interesting that Duncan Hunter didn’t even show up on the list?

Don't take offense but my understanding was that Rep. Paul's name had to be written in according to this story. Now why would a candidate who was announced have to be written in? And he still beats St. Rudy...

The RNC better wake up because a certain candidate keeps showing up in their polls for a reason.

136 posted on 06/11/2007 7:26:54 AM PDT by billbears (Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. --Santayana)
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To: billbears

Ron Paul WAS on the ballot. What an interesting, but inaccurate article.


137 posted on 06/11/2007 7:34:36 AM PDT by colorcountry ( We need to move away from the Kennedy Wing of the Republican Party. (Duncan Hunter))
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To: gemoftheocean
Great rant!

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

138 posted on 06/11/2007 8:00:27 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 ("You know," he says, "I haven't spent a dime yet." FDT, June 9, 2007)
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To: The Blitherer

A Wahabbist Muslim who lives in peace with his neighbors like Mormons do is as eligible to earn my vote.


139 posted on 06/11/2007 8:12:19 AM PDT by edsheppa
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To: FastCoyote
No matter how hard you guys try, it is going to be impossible to talk around it without your side eventually resorting to jackboot censorship.

Jackboot censorship? Geez, trying hard to be a victim you are. The FR Romney Mormon bashing threads go on for hundreds of posts, and appear fairly free-wheeling. If people object to the interjection of the theological stuff into a thread discussing poll results, is that what you refer to as resorting to jackboot censorship? Or is it hurtful if I refer to you all as FR Flying Imams?

140 posted on 06/11/2007 8:17:36 AM PDT by Plutarch (Bush is a coward to the left and a tyrant to the right.)
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To: colorcountry
Thank you for clearing that up. I won't be voting for Romney but hold nothing against him either. He could believe in the Great Pumpkin for all I care. The one thing I look for in conservative leadership is a person that will cut government to the bone and be willing to give specific departments he will be cutting.

This nonsense of 'cutting' government we're getting from Republicans in the past decade or so is just that, nonsense. I don't want to hear how letting government grow at a lower rate is cutting. It's not. And that's what the majority of the Republican candidates are advocating

141 posted on 06/11/2007 8:19:26 AM PDT by billbears (Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. --Santayana)
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To: FastCoyote
Evidently it is alright to reflexively vote FOR a candidate based on religion, but to vote against them for the same reason is verboten.

Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket

142 posted on 06/11/2007 8:20:40 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 ("You know," he says, "I haven't spent a dime yet." FDT, June 9, 2007)
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To: colorcountry
Should we let Mormons be the only ones to disseminate information about their own history?

Is this what is to be expected?

Yep!

Why do you think the LDS church has acquired so many historical documents and locked them away in archives?

143 posted on 06/11/2007 8:46:19 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 ("You know," he says, "I haven't spent a dime yet." FDT, June 9, 2007)
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To: Plutarch

“eventually resorting to jackboot”

Note the word “eventually”, it is an adverb, a modifier. I think those grammatical constructs are learned in about the 5th grade.


144 posted on 06/11/2007 8:55:09 AM PDT by FastCoyote
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To: Reaganesque

>> as a means to propagate more anti-Mormon bigotry
>> at the expense of Mitt Romney

Whoa!! There might be some anti-Mormon bigotry out there. But for the most part the “anti-Mormon” dialogue is in response to the undeniable bigotry that is deeply ingrained in Mormonism. How do you personally feel Reaganesque about the bigotry in the Book of Mormon? Do you denounce it? Or do you accept the bigotry of that book? Do you denounce Brigham Young’s bigoted racism? Or do you think he was a true prophet of God?

IMHO the last people who should be calling anyone a bigot are Mormons who believe in the Book of Mormon or who believe that Brigham Young was a true prophet.


145 posted on 06/11/2007 8:58:53 AM PDT by Degaston
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To: Reaganesque
anti-Semitic group Nation of Islam

They're not just anti-Semitic. They're a bunch of black supremicists, anti everyone who isn't black. Though it's true, their hatred of Jews is particularly strong.

146 posted on 06/11/2007 10:55:44 AM PDT by curiosity
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To: Degaston

You’re fretting about bigotry in the Book of Mormon?

You better check the Bible before you cast stones at the Book of Mormon:

(Gen. 9:20-27)

And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:

And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.

And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.

And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father’s nakedness.

And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.

And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

(Ex. 21:2-6)

If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

If he came in by himself, he shall go out by himself: if he were married, then his wife shall go out with him.

If his master have given him a wife, and she have born him sons or daughters; the wife and her children shall be her master’s, and he shall go out by himself.

And if the servant shall plainly say, I love my master, my wife, and my children; I will not go out free:

Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.

(Exodus 21:20-21)

And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished.

Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

(Lev. 25:44-46)

Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.

Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession.

And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour.

And for those who think it only appears in the Old Testament, consider the following:

(Colossians 4:1)

Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.

(1 Peter 2:18-21)

Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.

For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.

For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

And for those of the female persuasion, the Bible says thus:

(1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

(1 Tim. 2: 11-12)

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


147 posted on 06/11/2007 11:37:25 AM PDT by ComeUpHigher
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To: Defiant

If it has, I haven’t heard it.


148 posted on 06/11/2007 11:52:19 AM PDT by Dante3
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To: John Semmens; Elsie; Colofornian; Enosh; greyfoxx39; colorcountry; Theo
This post (#147) is typical of apologists' efforts to sow doubt. We 'Inmans' have met that with our own revelations of Mormonism doctrine and foundations (such as Smith's specious rewriting of the Book of Genesis, to write in a prophecy he dreamed up of his advent * http://scriptures.lds.org/en/jst/contents *). Is this sort of doubt sowing to be opposed or just ignored by those who see it for the agenda it represents? [I recall something about milk and meat and strengthening the weak in the faith rather than judaizing them. Your scriptural milage may vary.]
149 posted on 06/11/2007 12:59:45 PM PDT by MHGinTN (You've had life support. Promote life support for those in the womb.)
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To: colorcountry
Is it a term of endearment, do you think?

If you're named Petunia or Porky; probably...

150 posted on 06/11/2007 1:07:29 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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