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Podhoretz asks: "Why are Jews liberals?"
AP via Yahoo! News ^ | Wed Sep 2, 2009 | By HILLEL ITALIE, AP National Writer

Posted on 09/02/2009 8:46:36 AM PDT by Beloved Levinite

Podhoretz asks: Why are Jews liberals? Buzz up!17 votes Send Email IM .Share Delicious Digg Facebook Fark Newsvine Reddit StumbleUpon Technorati Twitter Yahoo! Bookmarks .Print .. AP – FILE - In this June 23, 2004 file photo, Norman Podhoretz is shown after receiving the Presidential Medal … .By HILLEL ITALIE, AP National Writer Hillel Italie, Ap National Writer – Wed Sep 2, 7:02 am ET NEW YORK – Norman Podhoretz, the neo-conservative and former Commentary editor, is a stocky, confident man whose book-filled Upper East Side apartment features a bronzed wall image of Teddy Roosevelt with a bold-faced statement from the most bullish of presidents:

"AGGRESSIVE FIGHTING FOR THE RIGHT IS THE NOBLEST SPORT THE WORLD AFFORDS."

Like Roosevelt, Podhoretz prefers periods to question marks, with declarative books such as "Making It," "World War IV" and "The Bloody Crossroads." Since leaving liberalism in the 1970s, he has not doubted his turn right or hesitated to confront former friends, especially in defense of Israel.

He is 79, proud and satisfied, even with Democrat Barack Obama in the White House. But one issue nags him past the point of thought, a disappointment he brands by punctuation. It provides the title for his new book, "Why Are Jews Liberals?"

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Government; Politics; Religion
KEYWORDS: jewishvote; jews; liberals; obama; podhoretz
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This question has always puzzled me. But, I am but a "mere gentile," so I would love to hear the "Jewish FReeper" perspective.
1 posted on 09/02/2009 8:46:36 AM PDT by Beloved Levinite
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To: Beloved Levinite

its hip?


2 posted on 09/02/2009 8:50:01 AM PDT by television is just wrong (one bad ass mistake America!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
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To: Beloved Levinite

Cultural insanity?


3 posted on 09/02/2009 8:50:28 AM PDT by Seruzawa (Obamalama lied, the republic died.)
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To: Beloved Levinite

JINOs and CINOs are now the majority.


4 posted on 09/02/2009 8:53:20 AM PDT by Huskrrrr
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To: Beloved Levinite

Because they are secular.


5 posted on 09/02/2009 8:53:43 AM PDT by Welcome2thejungle
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To: Beloved Levinite
They can't stand southerners, white trash, evangelicals, yada..yada..yada.

It's a class and bigotry problem, imo.

6 posted on 09/02/2009 8:57:34 AM PDT by roses of sharon (Kennedy dared us to call his bluff, when we didn't, he made all of us complicit in what he had done.)
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GLEN
...Wait a minute, I told it wrong.
Here, I’m startin’ over: How come it
takes three Pollacks to screw in a
lightbulb?

HI
I don’t know, Glen.

GLEN
Cause they’re so durn stupid!

(Raising Arizona, Coen Brothers)

So now it’s your turn, Podhoretz. Ask away.


7 posted on 09/02/2009 9:00:00 AM PDT by flowerplough (You're going to destroy my presidency! -Bammy, quoted secondhand by Chuck Grassley)
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To: Beloved Levinite
I'm not Jewish so a grain of salt is advised.

Some time ago I read a book on the early days of Communist infiltration of American institutions. The author noted that many of the early members of the Communist Party in the USA were Jewish and he had what sounded to me like a rational explanation that relates to the issue at hand: Why are Jews so Liberal. The author's view was that historically the Jews have been a persecuted race/religion/ whatever. That knowledge is now buried deep in the genetic structure (so to speak) of Jews in general - they know their history. The attraction of a truly egalitarian society ala Marx/Communism was a direct result of this view of a persecuted race. The early Jewish Communists held the view, not entirely without reason, that Communism promised a society free of persecution - if everyone is equal than nobody will be singled out. As we know, that idea was entirely false. It didn't work out.

But the historical knowledge of the Jewish people remains and the idea that egalitarian socialism might relieve them of the threat of persecution remains. It is the source of Jewish Liberalism.

8 posted on 09/02/2009 9:07:04 AM PDT by InterceptPoint
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To: Beloved Levinite

One interesting question to try to get at the answer to the question posed here is to separate the broad category Jews into religious Jews and secular Jews.

It could be that secular Jews are largely non-believers and non-believers everywhere and historically have flocked to the left for fairly obvious reasons.

I’d even venture to say that the proportion of non-believers may be (paradoxically?) higher among Jews than among gentiles. If so, that would create a bias towards believing that Jews are of the left, when perhaps the reality is that non-believers (from any group) are of the left.


9 posted on 09/02/2009 9:07:21 AM PDT by 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten
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To: InterceptPoint
But the historical knowledge of the Jewish people remains and the idea that egalitarian socialism might relieve them of the threat of persecution remains. It is the source of Jewish Liberalism.

It puzzles me that every Jewish senator is a dependable vote for amnesty, and Jews are everywhere in the immigration system, fighting to let as many into the US as possible, and fighting to prevent deportations. I think their historic plight of being without a country for many centuries, and often expelled from various nations, makes them almost automatic open borders advocates, even when groups that hate them are ever increasing in numbers, and making the US a less safe and accepting place for them as has happened in parts of Europe.

There often seems to be a very self-destructive element to parts of Jewish liberalism.

10 posted on 09/02/2009 9:14:12 AM PDT by Will88
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To: Beloved Levinite
I'm Jewish (actually quite secular) and it's certainly something that I've wondered about myself. However, I'm more of a "Jeffersonian Liberal" or a small 'l' libertarian (sort of a cross between Walter Williams and Neal Boortz) than strict conservative.

Mark

11 posted on 09/02/2009 9:15:45 AM PDT by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: InterceptPoint
Good points there.

It's worth noting that most Jews in the U.S. today can trace their ancestry to immigrants from Europe (particularly Eastern Europe) in the early decades of the 20th century. These folks came to the U.S. from places where totalitarian nanny-state governments were a way of life, and while they certainly fled for good reason the simple truth is that they brought many of these nanny-state expectations with them.

12 posted on 09/02/2009 9:20:21 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (God is great, beer is good . . . and people are crazy.)
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To: Beloved Levinite

McCarthy & American Jews.

Waves of immigrants came to the USA from 1880-1920: the Poles the Italians the Irish the Jews. Most of these ethnic groups voted for FDR by large majorities in 1932, 1936 & 1940, but over time they have assimilated and become less politically monolithic. Yet to this day the American jews still vote democratic by hefty majorities. Why? It is because Hollywood still strenuously maintains the communist lie about the 1950-54 McCarthy era. That lie is maintained by the recent movies “A Beautiful Mind,” and “Good Night and Good Luck”.

Shortly before his death in 1953 Stalin initiated the Doctor’s Plot. There are various reasons given for that. The KGB hated Israel. Many Americans who were enthusiastic supporters of the UN were Jewish. Edvard Radzinsky in his book “Stalin” argues that while at one time Stalin hoped Jewish financial capital would help rebuild the Soviet Union after the WWII, Stalin hated the prospect of suborning himself to the Baruch Plan and he flat out rejected IAEA nuclear controls—presented in 1946 (an attitude is not entirely dissimliar to that of Iran today.) The Russians were working on their own A-bomb based on stolen US designs. Stalin, himself a Geogian, wanted to insure that the Russians saw a Russian face to a Communist Party which was top heavy with Jews.

Whatever the reason, Stalin fomented the Doctor’s plot hysteria and broke off diplomatic relations with Israel. He was within days of preparing to exile the Soviet Jews to the Gulag (as was done previously with various other ethnic minorities such as the Crimean Tatars, Chechens, etc.), and initiate another great purge along the lines of 1938.

Stalin already had the concentration camps set up, and some of the preliminary accusations had gone out for the Doctor’s Plot. 100 or so Russian jews had already been executed when he died in 1953. The important thing to recall is that the Doctor’s Plot happened at the same time as the McCarthy anti communist business from 1950-54. Also in 1953, in the US the Rosenburgs were tried and executed for treason—and this less than a decade after the Holocaust. This naturally caused fear and suspicion in the US Jewish community. This fear and suspicion was played upon by knowledgeable communists and leftists—large numbers of whom were themselves jewish. These folk not only knew about what Stalin had done in the 1930s and had been about to do with the doctor’s plot before he died, but also saw the McCarthy trials as show trials american style . . . that is, a prelude to an american pogrom. For which the Rosenbergs were exhibit A.

In a brilliant piece of jujitsu, leftists and communists imputed to Americans on the right exactly what Stalin had planned to do. But it was done soto voce. Basically, a blood libel was perpetrated on Americans without their knowing it. Worse, Protestant America was painted as the tribal enemy tooth and claw of the US jewish establishment without Protestant America even knowing it. Never again! — Was the battle cry. But there weren’t any such enemies of Jews in the USA. If there actually had been Protestant tribal enemies in the USA, Meyer Kahane and his Jewish Defense League would have provoked them into a bloodletting. Why did Meyer Kahane behave the way he did? Because he heard the same thing as everyone else - all the Jews, that is. He heard about enemies of the jews in the heartland. But when he went to give battle, the only sorts of fights the JDL could find resulted in unintelligible court disputes in places like Idaho. In the end, Kahane married an American woman & helped expedite Stalin’s last wish—to rid Russia of Jews. When his American wife committed suicide, Kahane lost interest in the USA and focused instead on Israel. When Kahane died in 1990 it was at the hands of a Moslem.

While the American public outside NY/LA were generally given the view that the McCarthy era was an age when innocent men were unjustly tried by suspicious anti semites like McCarthy & Nixon, the NY/LA Jewish establishment was given a very different story. They were given to understand that the democrats/liberals had prevented the US from visiting a holocaust on them - and that American Jews owed their loyalty to the liberal democrats because the liberal democrats were the protectors of the Jews. And this Meme went on untouched for decades after McCarthy.

This dual track story line didn’t crack until the early 1990’s when the KGB/NKVD/GRU opened up their files on the WWII-McCarthy period. In 1995 the US’s National Security Agency opened up their Venona files. Both Russian and American spy agency files showed that McCarthy was right. The Rosenburgs were guilty. The US government —notably including the Manhattan Project—had been at one time soaked with Russian Spies. While McCarthy had the details wrong, he got the general outline of the story right. Why did McCarthy get the outline right and the details wrong? The reason is that McCarthy’s relationship to Hoover was the same as Hoover’s relationship to the NSA.

The NSA told the FBI about the Venona intercepts but insisted that the FBI could not use NSA intercepts as evidence in court. The FBI had to develop their own leads. As a result most of the spies escaped prosecution. The FBI did not get their man.

In 1950 J. Edgar Hoover began weekly meetings with Joseph McCarthy. Those meetings ended in 1954. The beginning and end of those meetings coincided with the beginning and end of McCarthy star turn in the national spot light. McCarthy got most of the details of the spy story wrong but he got the general outline of the story right. His predicament was the same as that of the FBI. Whatever Hoover told him—McCarthy could not use in the senate hearings. To this day the FBI denies that Hoover told McCarthy anything about the Venona Cables and maybe Hoover said nothing explicit to McCarthy for which Hoover could be liable in court.

Needless to say, an American style shoah was never in the cards.

The reason that Hollywood hated Ronald Reagan so much was that he was an anti communist in Hollywood during the McCarthy period. To be staunchly anti communist in Hollywood or NYC at that time was to be at least vaguely anti semitic because in the 30’s to the 50’s communism was considered to be almost a secular form of Judaism in the Jewish communities of NY/LA. Given the reputation of the Jews in capitalist countries as the quintessential capitalists, this seems ironic. But in Russia, communism was a way to get ahead for the jews. And in addition to the opportunities communism presented to Jews, there was a biblical antecedent for jewish communists in the bible in the person of Joseph in Egypt because the relationship between Jews to Joseph’s Egypt maps over well to that between Jews and Communist Russia. And the history of the Jews from Joseph to Moses looks very similar to the rise to prominence of many Jews in the soviet communist bureaucracy from the 1917-1970 and the decades long expulsion of Russia’s jews after 1970 when it became clear that communism was not working. The Russians blamed Russian jews for the failure of communism.

Reagan was among the first wave of FDR democrats to switch parties. Reagan’s star turn in Hollywood ended after McCarthy, but his experiences in Hollywood served him well when he went into public service. He always understood the jujitsu of media talk of the age. Something that cannot be said of Nixon. Nixon’s rise to prominance began with his role with the House Unamerican Activities Committee (HUAC)—a role for which gained visceral leftist enemies with long memories (in the way John Kerry gained prominence during the Viet Nam era and made visceral enemies of the swift boat veterans.) Nixons fall also coincides with the Russian expulsion of Russia’s jews.

I would not argue that Nixon paid the price for Russia’s expulsion of Russian jews. That stretches the point. However, when I hear American based Moslems talking about McCarthyism being visited on them, I have to laugh. They have unknowingly pronounced themselves guilty in the eyes of many Americans.

The history of the McCarthy period now is forgotten among American Jews except for the vague idea that somehow Republicans are bad and somehow Democrats are good.

As for the Democrats, part of the reason for the loss of their inner coherence in the last decade has been that the part of their foundational raison d’être which stems from the McCarthy era was revealed to be based on a lie. So now the core of the Democratic Party is the sodomites. Those people are not just confusing, they are confused.

David Horowitz interviewed by Rush Limbaugh some months ago — talked about how his parents were communists and he was a communist in college. He said when he was in college his views were always treated respectfully by his professors. But, he said recently, a young Christian college student told him that his homosexual college professor had singled him out in class and asked him “Why do you Christians hate queers?” Asked why he continued to do what he did in the face of all the abuse he gets, David Horowitz said that - like Rush - he took public political positions because he had to. But also he said he did it as a matter of atonement.

He gets it.

Venona Historical Writings that include comparisons of venona and russian spy lists and the changing venona story in the academy. http://www.johnearlhaynes.org/page43.html http://www.johnearlhaynes.org/index.html


13 posted on 09/02/2009 9:20:25 AM PDT by ckilmer (Phi)
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Simply because because most American secular Jews (the majority) despise serious Christians, are ambivalent about America, love abortion and, as most are unbelievers, want to drive any mention of God from the public square. They also have abandoned their parents’ attachment to Israel. The liberal wing of the Democrat Party is the logical place for people who think/feel this way.
14 posted on 09/02/2009 9:44:30 AM PDT by Godwin1
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To: Beloved Levinite

Ping for later


15 posted on 09/02/2009 10:08:41 AM PDT by Tailback
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To: ckilmer
ckilmer,

Very interesting, very informative. Did you pen that yourself, or is that an article? (I didn't find it on your link)

I can remember being a little kid in the 60's & my much older sister had two "cool" Jewish musician friends, living in Queens, NY (no, not Simon & Garfunkel, but she loved them too!) who had anti-McCarthy paraphenalia posted in their house. For some reason, though I was small, I remembered the name "McCarthy" & their hatred of him.

Now, I'm wondering where Obama's communism & Islamism, hence hatred of Jews, fits into this question?

16 posted on 09/02/2009 10:16:06 AM PDT by Beloved Levinite (I have a new name for the occupier of The Oval Office: KING FRAUD! (pronounced King "Faa-raud"))
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To: Godwin1

That seems to sum it up quite nicely. Sounds logical to me. Too bad secular Jews don’t recognize the astonishing accuracy of Biblical prophecy in relation to modern day Israel.


17 posted on 09/02/2009 10:21:12 AM PDT by Beloved Levinite (I have a new name for the occupier of The Oval Office: KING FRAUD! (pronounced King "Faa-raud"))
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To: flowerplough
...Wait a minute, I told it wrong. Here, I’m startin’ over

GLEN
Mind you don't cut yourself, Mordecai.

Truly a classic.

18 posted on 09/02/2009 10:29:18 AM PDT by LTCJ (God Save the Constitution - Tar & Feathers, The New Look for Summer '09)
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To: Beloved Levinite

Now, I’m wondering where Obama’s communism & Islamism, hence hatred of Jews, fits into this question?
............
They’re two different animals imho.

The period of the 50’s might as well be 100’s of years away.

however, when you hear moslems accuse others of McCarthyism—its generally a sign that suspicions are warranted.


19 posted on 09/02/2009 10:40:21 AM PDT by ckilmer (Phi)
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To: Beloved Levinite; All

Check this out too:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2173184/posts?page=13#13


20 posted on 09/02/2009 11:13:03 AM PDT by FreeKeys ("The last hope of human liberty in this world rests on us." - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Beloved Levinite

From talking with Jewish friends I have concluded that the members of the Leftist ruling group or communists, or socialists, or fascists (whatever they call themselves) are a minority in control legally, economically and socially, over the majority.

Jewish folks (not all) feel safer being in control over America’s Christian majority rather than be controlled by them. Hence, leftists in the US are in clear opposition to everything that is Christian and Jews feel comfortable in that position.

This opposition includes being against Christian support of Israel. Even leftist Jews who support Israel will work against Christians who support Israel in order to keep them out of power and influence.


21 posted on 09/02/2009 11:13:26 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
Middle East and terrorism, occasional political and Jewish issues Ping List. High Volume

If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.

..................

22 posted on 09/02/2009 6:11:58 PM PDT by SJackson (There is always a need for intoxication: China has opium, Islam hashish, the West woman, Malraux)
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To: Beloved Levinite

Why are “Jews” liberal? Because liberalism is a mental disorder. Surely you can understand why so many, many Jews have been driven insane over the centuries.
In all the world, there has never been a people that has had so many progroms against them, every one of them trying to eradicate Jews off the face of the earth.
Most “liberal” Jews are frightened Jews though you will never get then to admit it. If there is another wave of Jewish genocide, maybe they have renounced Judaism enough that it won’t include them this time around.
These Jews are also angry. Angry at the GOD of Israel for allowing them to suffer so greatly. After all, if Jews are the Chosen People, why didn’t the GOD of Israel smite the Romans, The Assyrians, the Spanish Inquisitors, the Nazis, islam?
See, most of us don’t know what the hell it is we have been chosen FOR. Some of us do and we accept it and everything that comes with it.
They see only today. Some of us look back and know we did the wrong thing at the wrong time and those wrongs cost us our futures unto the thousandth generation. Whether or not we even have a future looks precarious.
So the liberals will try to fight harder against everything they should be fighting for, and for everything they should be fighting against, in order to gain acceptance among men. Me? I would rather be forgiven by GOD.


23 posted on 09/02/2009 7:40:43 PM PDT by MestaMachine (One if by land, 2 if by sea, 3 if by Air Force 1.)
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To: InterceptPoint; SJackson; Beloved Levinite; ckilmer; Godwin1
The mixture of identity politics and victimhood creates a toxic mix. The universalization of grievance is surely not unique to Jews as 100 years of Irish voting and the Kennedys shoes.

There is far more going on. There is a deep messianic earning among Jews. If not religious, we tend to wish to immanentize an eschaton. Liberals do this and so do neocons. Influenced by the renaissance, the reformation, liberalism and in the aftermath of multiple disasters European Jews felt a need to change the world. But this impulse is destructive and arrogant delusion in the most friendly of Christian nations. Finally, there is guilt. White guilt is a pale immitation of Jewish guilt.
24 posted on 09/02/2009 9:36:53 PM PDT by rmlew (“Democracy tends to ignore..., threats to its existence because it loathes doing what is needed)
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To: Beloved Levinite
As a Jewish FReeper, I'll give you an explanation.

Reform Judaism and it's history. Reform Judaism came into being during the 1800's after centuries of pogroms ("small" holocausts) in various Jewishs communities in Europe. In part, in an effort to stop the murderous rampages against the Jews, they thought it might be a good idea to become more like their native hosts. Thinking that if they dropped major aspects of Jewish Law, such as dietary laws, strict sabbath observance, calling their buildings temples (and thereby eliminating Israel as the place of the future Temple) instead of synagog's, that they would be more accepted by "blending" in.

This dejudaized lifestyle then lead to a transfer beliefs such that no longer is G-d the agent of change and welfare but governments. Government is the agent of social justice. Government can redistribute income to equalize outcomes. Government became the new Golden Calf.

So, now you have roughly 80% of American Jews in this camp, the remaining are split between conservative and orthodox, who because they believe in G-d in much the same way as conservative Christians, tend to be much more politically conservative.

The good news and bad news is this. Good news, the orthodox are on the rise. They have big families, they are growing in number, they are big supporters of Israel and are moving to Israel (aliyah) and cant stand Obama. Some disgruntled Reform go to Orthodox for the real deal. The bad news is most of these Reform Jews wont change. They are intermarrying themselves out of existance and have become so liberal that they bear hardly any resemblance to Torah Judaism and their souls are in danger of being lost.

My two cents worth.

25 posted on 09/02/2009 10:10:17 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: Godwin1

So what you’re saying is... all of the problems in the world come down to people who have “God issues.” Right?


26 posted on 09/02/2009 10:22:41 PM PDT by PureSolace (Trust in God)
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To: blasater1960
Assimilation seemed feasible because there is very little difference theologically between Reform Judaism and liberal Christianity, at least as regards Christ and the Holy Scriptures. Taking one step further leads Jews into liberalism, which regards religion as passe’. That does not, of course, take care of social prejudice based on class and family culture, so anti-Judaism is superseded by antisemitism where even secular Jews are treated as members of a hated ethnic group.
27 posted on 09/02/2009 11:44:14 PM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE HOMO!)
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To: blasater1960

But here is the insanity of it. The “Jews” who renounce Judaism, for some reason known only to them, still call themselves Jews. They could do many things to distance themselves from any semblance of being Jewish, but they don’t.
Nor do they convert FROM Judaism. There is a malfunction here. They don’t want to act like Jews but they won’t let go of it altogether. It’s schizophrenic.


28 posted on 09/03/2009 1:48:33 AM PDT by MestaMachine (One if by land, 2 if by sea, 3 if by Air Force 1.)
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To: 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten

Secular Jews from the former Soviet Union voted majority against Obama. They had enough of socialism back in the USSR.

In Israel political landscape is wild. There is religious right, there is religious left, there is secular left, there is secular right.


29 posted on 09/03/2009 5:34:25 AM PDT by Tolik
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To: ckilmer

Very interesting analysis, thanks for posting it.


30 posted on 09/03/2009 7:24:45 AM PDT by Convert from ECUSA (It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies - C.S. Lewis)
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To: blasater1960

Thanks for your insight blasater. I’m getting the “picture.”


31 posted on 09/03/2009 12:11:36 PM PDT by Beloved Levinite (I have a new name for the occupier of The Oval Office: KING FRAUD! (pronounced King "Faa-raud"))
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To: blasater1960; SJackson; rmlew; ncfool; dalight; Yaelle
Reform Judaism came into being during the 1800's after centuries of pogroms ("small" holocausts) in various Jewish communities in Europe.

No, there was actually little or no connection between the origin of Reform Judaism and pogroms. Pogroms were a phenomenon of Eastern Europe, most specifically the czarist empire. Reform Judaism, on the other hand, was born in Germany in the early 1800s, where Jews were more upwardly mobile and enjoyed more civil liberties than in anywhere else in Europe at the time.

When Reform Judaism translocated to the United States later in the 19th century, its base was predominantly Jews of recent German origin. Those Jews were not far left, for the most part, and their rabbinate was no where near as inane in supporting leftist causes as is today's Reform rabbinate. It is the latter that has had a major role in miseducating American Jews about history (both Jewish and American) and current events. When so many of today's American Jews are miseducated and brainwashed by Reform institutions and/or public schools, it's no wonder that they are more than willing to lead the cheers for self-destructive leftist politics and policies.

As for "social justice," look out whenever you hear anyone use that vacuous term. "Social Justice" inevitably means NO justice!

32 posted on 09/03/2009 2:46:14 PM PDT by justiceseeker93
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To: RobbyS

Exactly! And that is the one of the big follies of Reform Judaism. As we see in Germany, it didnt matter that Germany was the seat of Reform thought. It didnt matter that culturally the Jews were the same as their German counter parts. If you were of Jewish ancestry...you went to the ovens.


33 posted on 09/03/2009 2:49:15 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: MestaMachine

Well, I totally agree it appears schizophrenic. I even know families that converted to christianty that still consider themselves Jewish, since they have a direct maternal lineage they can point to. Which is technically correct. I would say that it is more a mystical thing, that every Jewish person knows they have a Jewish soul (I realize this is an esoteric view) and can not divorce that aspect from their world view. I think that deep down, they know they are different, even though it makes no sense.


34 posted on 09/03/2009 2:59:27 PM PDT by blasater1960 ( Dt 30, Ps 111, The Torah is perfect, attainable, now and forever)
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To: blasater1960

The great pity is that German Jews seem to have been among the greatest patriots, a place where, like America, they could feel “ at home.” Which makes me wonder how American Jews could be so trusting of American politicians. If it could happen to German Jews.... What is that snatch of Scripture?”Put not you faith in princes...”


35 posted on 09/03/2009 5:36:33 PM PDT by RobbyS (ECCE HOMO!)
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To: justiceseeker93
When Reform Judaism translocated to the United States later in the 19th century, its base was predominantly Jews of recent German origin. Those Jews were not far left, for the most part, and their rabbinate was no where near as inane in supporting leftist causes as is today's Reform rabbinate. It is the latter that has had a major role in miseducating American Jews about history (both Jewish and American) and current events. When so many of today's American Jews are miseducated and brainwashed by Reform institutions and/or public schools, it's no wonder that they are more than willing to lead the cheers for self-destructive leftist politics and policies.

Not bad. Not bad at all. Not completely accurate, but at least heading in the right direction.

36 posted on 09/03/2009 10:21:32 PM PDT by dalight
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To: justiceseeker93; blasater1960; SJackson; rmlew; ncfool; dalight; Yaelle
Quite true. Reform Judaism is born of liberalism and a desire to assimilate. The result of the Khmelnytsky Uprising and the later wars in Poland that killed perhaps as many as half of the 200,000 Polish-Lithuanian Jews was a breakdown of Traditional Orthodoxy and a rise of mystical ones. It gave us the Hasidic movement as well as a swell of disorganized Messianic zeal that led to widespread acceptance of Shabatai Zvi and Jacob Frank. Reform Judaism is the opposite of this.
37 posted on 09/04/2009 12:35:41 AM PDT by rmlew (“Democracy tends to ignore..., threats to its existence because it loathes doing what is needed)
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To: rmlew
The result of the Khmelnytsky Uprising and the later wars in Poland that killed perhaps as many as half of the 200,000 Polish-Lithuanian Jews was a breakdown of Traditional Orthodoxy and a rise of mystical ones. It gave us the Hasidic movement as well as a swell of disorganized Messianic zeal that led to widespread acceptance of Shabatai Zvi and Jacob Frank. Reform Judaism is the opposite of this.

Very interesting. I don't remember Paul Johnson covering this in the History of the Jews.

Where did you read about this?

38 posted on 09/04/2009 8:32:17 AM PDT by dalight
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To: Beloved Levinite

Why does the question puzzle you? Why would you expect otherwise? Why is it hard for you to accept that different religions have different sets of values?


39 posted on 09/05/2009 7:56:13 AM PDT by TheFourthMagi
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To: TheFourthMagi

Republicans represent the establishment, normalcy, orthodoxy.

Democrats are more representitve of the outsider, the devients. Catholics were considered outsiders at one point, so Irish immigrants were always Democrats. In fact all immigrants have associated with the Democrat Party.
Gays, blacks, etc. also consider themselves outsiders and vote Democrat.

Jews apparently have followed that tradition, though I am a Republican.


40 posted on 09/05/2009 8:05:19 AM PDT by steven33442
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To: Godwin1
I don't really think that "most American secular Jews ... love abortion." Speaking from a Jewish perspective, I've seen an occasional loudmouth Jewish female rant about "a woman's right to choose," but I've never even heard of even one particalar Jewish woman whom I've known who actually had an elective abortion. I am certain that the abortion rate among Jewish women in the US is far below the national average. The hypocrisy is amazing!

As to your statement that "most American secular Jews despise serious Christians," that's an overestimate. I think that comes into play primarily with direct proselytization. Serious Christians should understand the historical and psychological reasons for this and act accordingly, as many already do.

41 posted on 09/05/2009 5:08:36 PM PDT by justiceseeker93
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To: Beloved Levinite

Because they are masochists.


42 posted on 09/05/2009 5:12:05 PM PDT by Let's Roll (Stop paying ACORN to destroy America! Cut off their government funding!)
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To: steven33442; ml/nj; firebrand; rmlew; dennisw; juliej; pabianice; montag813; Slings and Arrows; ...
Republicans represent the establishment, normalcy, orthodoxy. Democrats are more representative of the outsider, the deviants.

That statement is grossly oversimplistic, a tired cliche. It depends upon what period of American history you are talking about and what defines "the establishment" and "the outsider." Obviously, many parts of the current "establishment," e. g., the massive government bureaucracy, are controlled by 'Rats.

And certainly Jews, in general, are not "outsiders" in today's US, from just about any objective standard. Probably the majority of American Jews alive today are at least second generation American-born and have ancestral roots in the US going back to before WWI. In addition, Jews as a group are wealthier and more educated on average, and receive no benefits from "affirmative action" (in contrast to other "outsiders").

Furthermore, it should be noted that the two most statistically antisemitic and anti-Israel groups in the American population, Moslems and black radicals, are pandered to by the Democratic Party.

The fact that the allegiance of the majority of today's American Jews lies with the 'Rats is more of a pathological addiction than a "tradition."

43 posted on 09/05/2009 8:08:53 PM PDT by justiceseeker93
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To: justiceseeker93

And I think you are a cliche, my dear friend.


44 posted on 09/05/2009 8:10:59 PM PDT by steven33442
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To: Beloved Levinite

I’m not Jewish so this is just a guess on my part, but I do think it is a factor, however small:

Since the Nazis have incorrectly been labeled by leftists as “extreme right wingers” since WWII, (well, Nazis and Communists hated each other, so they MUST be opposite ends of the political spectrum, right?) I think Jews have suffered from a kneejerk negative reaction to the thought of Republicans as being “right wingers”.


45 posted on 09/05/2009 8:27:09 PM PDT by Zman516 (socialists & muslims -- satan's useful idiots.)
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To: steven33442
And I think you are a cliche, my friend.

Well, if you disagree with me, which I don't mind, let's talk facts and logic, and let's keep this on a higher plane than personal barbs.

46 posted on 09/05/2009 8:31:08 PM PDT by justiceseeker93
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To: steven33442; justiceseeker93

I’ll concede the Dems represent the deviants, but as for being outsiders/anti-Establishment ? Nope. It’s my beliefs and standings that have been run down by these cretins, and I’ve been on the outside since the day I aligned with the GOP 23 years ago. The Dems ARE the Establishment (along with their RINO stooge/meatpuppets).


47 posted on 09/05/2009 8:36:36 PM PDT by fieldmarshaldj (~"This is what happens when you find a stranger in the Alps !"~~)
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To: justiceseeker93
Jews as a group are wealthier and more educated on average, and receive no benefits from "affirmative action" (in contrast to other "outsiders").

Sounds about right to me. A number of years ago a brilliant Jewish friend could not get into med school. He was at the top of his class with test scores off the charts. Affirmative action was the reason he didn't qualify. It was the first time I understood what AA was all about.

48 posted on 09/05/2009 9:02:46 PM PDT by Just A Nobody (Better Dead than RED! NEVER AGAIN...Support our Troops! Beware the ENEMEDIA)
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To: justiceseeker93

There should probably be an APA number for it, but some of it, in large cities, is a case of Stockholm Syndrome..


49 posted on 09/05/2009 10:36:35 PM PDT by sheik yerbouty ( Make America and the world a jihad free zone!)
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To: blasater1960

I think there’s great (understandable) ethnic pride in the high IQ and intellectual contributions of the Jews, and a reluctance to separate themselves from an association with that.


50 posted on 09/05/2009 11:15:55 PM PDT by 9YearLurker
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