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The Abandonment of Social Conservatism for Fiscal Conservatism
http://www.theignorantfishermen.com/2010/06/abandonment-of-social-conservatism-for.html ^ | 6/30/10

Posted on 06/30/2010 7:52:49 AM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman

We citizens of America are in a fight for our life as a nation. Over the last 75 years we have witnessed a subtle and dramatic takeover of our Republic, which was founded on bedrock principles rooted in the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God. Social conservatism is also based on natural laws and moral absolutes instilled at the dawn of creation. Alarmingly, we are seeing conservatism being thrown violently overboard and subtly replaced with a progression of immoral laws rooted in secular humanism. This godless ideology is based on an adherence to unnatural laws of error that produce only decadence and anarchy. Our nation has fallen dramatically and exponentially in the past 50 years. It doesn't take an MSNBC anchor to comprehend this. These “fifth column secularists” are fully aware of this progression and are moving as fast as they can to transform our nation into their delusional, secular-socialist-utopian state.

What is even more troubling is the trend that exists in the Conservative movement of today. Many who identify themselves as “genuine Conservatives” are in fact nothing more than mere “fiscal Conservatives.” What is most disturbing is that on the current and important issues, it is readily apparent that most of these hold liberal views and base their values on a “morally relative” position. When “push comes to shove,” they are quite willing to abandon in a heartbeat core moral absolutes in favor of sound fiscal policies.

(Excerpt) Read more at theignorantfishermen.com ...


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Government; Politics; Religion
KEYWORDS: conservatism
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It has been the abandonment of the Conservative social-moral position that has destroyed our U.S. culture and society
1 posted on 06/30/2010 7:52:51 AM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

My candidate is a rare combination of both.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Walberg

http://www.walbergforcongress.com/Home.aspx


2 posted on 06/30/2010 7:54:35 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

Rant on, dude!!!!!

Bwa ha ha ha ha


3 posted on 06/30/2010 7:55:28 AM PDT by misterrob (Thug Life....now showing at a White House near you....)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

It’s been the abandonment of fiscal sanity for fake, Bible-thumping nanny-state psuedo-conservatism that has destroyed our society, actually.

It used to be that family and social values were a given regardless of politics - THAT is the problem, not some politicians position on gay marriage.


4 posted on 06/30/2010 7:56:33 AM PDT by RockinRight (I can see November from here!)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
“It has been the abandonment of the Conservative social-moral position that has destroyed our U.S. culture and society.”

YES!

We are ow becoming a Sodom and Gomorrah.

Thank you again for fresh air on the reality of where this country is going. It is our CORE values that are compromising DOWN. You cannot have a society of upright people when cretins like Barney Frank and literally criminals are running the country. It wouldn't matter if they were fiscal conservatives ... it's their ungodly heart that is transforming this country into a Sodom and Gomorrah.

5 posted on 06/30/2010 7:57:12 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

My Social conservatism drives my Fiscal conservatism.

It is due to my knowledge (not belief) of the importance of these values to drive a successful sociality without living off the government teet.


6 posted on 06/30/2010 7:59:20 AM PDT by dila813
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
Ignore detractors. You are a far cry from being “ignorant”. However I do enjoy the play on words. Those that have immoral issues, will bray on. Tune them out. You, speak the truth and that is what is important. LIBERALtarinas have contributed greatly to out on going social decline and they claim to be “fiscal conservatives”. Only in their warped, immoral minds could that be so. FOr LIBERALtarians, their god is money.
7 posted on 06/30/2010 8:00:30 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: cripplecreek

There’s a good candidate in MI-9 too.

http://www.rockyworksforus.com/


8 posted on 06/30/2010 8:01:04 AM PDT by bwc2221
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To: RockinRight
It’s been the abandonment of fiscal sanity for fake, Bible-thumping nanny-state pseudo-conservatism that has destroyed our society, actually.

It used to be that family and social values were a given regardless of politics - THAT is the problem, not some politicians position on gay marriage.

BUMP!!

9 posted on 06/30/2010 8:02:49 AM PDT by Constitution Day
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To: bwc2221

Rocky sounds good too and that’s what its going to take. True blue conservatives.

We need a serious housecleaning in the statehouse as well.


10 posted on 06/30/2010 8:03:19 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: RockinRight
The real problem is people not acknowledging God. It was only through Him and by His principles which include moral and fiscal policies that this country WAS great. At best we can onlu imitate Him. Now we advocate the opposite of this. We can't kick God out of our society fast enough and we are seeing the devastating results of that. The latest tragedy is Obama. It's not above my pay grade to KNOW that abortion is wrong and so are ALL his other policies - because he is NO Christian. Obama is pure evil and this is what people voted for _ pure evil and unable to discern the difference.
11 posted on 06/30/2010 8:05:19 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
This place is in no other than the Savior of the World, the Lord Jesus Christ! He ALONE possesses all the remedies for man.

Here's the money shot. "Social conservatism" is a euphamism for Christianity. The only thing required to be a Christian is freedom of religion, which we still possess. There is no other government intervention required.

12 posted on 06/30/2010 8:08:10 AM PDT by Huck (Q: How can you tell a party is in the minority? A: They're complaining about the deficit.)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
“What students would learn in American schools above all is the religion of Jesus Christ.” George Washington.
[speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs May 12, 1779]

"To the distinguished character of patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian"
George Washington. [May 2, 1778, at Valley Forge]

Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God.
Ben Franklin


13 posted on 06/30/2010 8:10:00 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
The two are not mutually exclusive and are in fact usually complementary. Most socially liberal policies require the expenditure of large sums of money. Most socially conservative policies are commonsense, and relatively cheap. For example cutting off funding for abortion, NPR, PBS and the NEA are both morally desirable and fiscally responsible. Support the action for whatever reason you like as the action is the same regardless. Taking away peoples rights requires either enforcement (secret police = expensive) or a bribe (social programs = very expensive). It turns out giving people their liberty is darn near free from the Government's POV.
14 posted on 06/30/2010 8:11:54 AM PDT by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: RockinRight
It’s been the abandonment of fiscal sanity for fake, Bible-thumping nanny-state psuedo-conservatism that has destroyed our society, actually.

It used to be that family and social values were a given regardless of politics - THAT is the problem, not some politicians position on gay marriage.

Yeah... What he said!

15 posted on 06/30/2010 8:15:33 AM PDT by Tatze (I reject your reality and substitute my own!)
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To: Huck

Exactly my point.

Politicians shouldn’t even really be about the social issues aside from right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness (throw property in there too).

So, abortion matters more than, say, gay marriage.

The problem is that the conservative movement has (until perhaps this past year) changed from basically fiscally sane Goldwaterism/Reaganism, to being a staunch social conservative who would just as soon spend or tax as much as any democrat...as long as they took the right position on abortion, gays, and guns, and the religious right ate it up and called it conservatism.

Just let me live my life according to socially conservative values and leave me, and my wallet (and right to bear arms) the hell alone! That’s all I ask.


16 posted on 06/30/2010 8:15:39 AM PDT by RockinRight (I can see November from here!)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

I agree.

Social conservatism is extremely important. Without it, we are doomed.

In all honesty, I think our nation is already doomed. We just don’t realize it yet.


17 posted on 06/30/2010 8:15:58 AM PDT by Miztiki
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To: GonzoGOP

You’re absolutely correct. My problem is that the so-called social conservatives have proven that on fiscal matters they spend as much as Democrats.


18 posted on 06/30/2010 8:17:27 AM PDT by RockinRight (I can see November from here!)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

The two are mutually exclusive.


19 posted on 06/30/2010 8:18:02 AM PDT by Psycho_Bunny (Hail To The Fail-In-Chief)
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To: cripplecreek

The Republican candidate for governor in MA marched in the Gay Pride parade with the founders of the organization that put the names of those who signed the Marriage Petition on-line so that we could be harassed at home and in some cases at work.


20 posted on 06/30/2010 8:18:08 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: dila813
My Social conservatism drives my Fiscal conservatism.

BUMP!

21 posted on 06/30/2010 8:24:39 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

Fiscal and social conservatism are two equal sides of the same coin to me.

I’ve learned NOT to trust anyone who clings solely to one side or the other. You wind up with either a degenerate sleazeball or a big-government nanny-stater... neither of which is a ‘real’ conservative in my book.


22 posted on 06/30/2010 8:25:12 AM PDT by greene66
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To: GonzoGOP

Our local fishwrap doesn’t like my candidate because as a congressman he didn’t bring enough pork to the district and they questioned how a conservative could be opposed to helping the folks. It’s the typical liberal game of setting the shifting parameters where a conservative can never fall within them.

In reality my candidate simply feels that we should take no more from government than we give and giving less to government leaves us with more to do with as we wish.


23 posted on 06/30/2010 8:26:29 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

I think that most people- and this includes me- aren’t abandoning social conservatism. I remain a hard wired con, both fiscal AND social. It is simply that I believe that social matters are largely the purview of the states and the fed has absolutely NO place in them. In my perfect world (and I remain ever hopeful) we will succeed and push the fed back into the box where it belongs. Social matters are for the local community- people have the absolute right to vote for the community they want. It is here that the liberT’s and I part. Supporting a secular conservatism for the fed doesn’t make us faithless- just Constitutionally practical.


24 posted on 06/30/2010 8:27:27 AM PDT by 13Sisters76 ("It is amazing how many people mistake a certain hip snideness for sophistication. " Thos. Sowell)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

Politically speaking, it all boils down to the relationship between the people and the state - that whole negative rights thing.

1. People above the state = rights = good.

2. State above the people = privileges = bad.

“The Left” keeps it’s eye on this ball, no matter what. It creates an endless sh*tstorm of outrages and crises all designed to either incrementally move from 1 to 2, or hide the moving from 1 to 2, or punish and destroy those in the way of moving from 1 to 2.

“Conservatism” is just a label - ask any RINO. They’ll go to church, say all the right things, and then merely stay quiet when they should speak out. Just so they help getting from 1 to 2, the Left doesn’t care - they’re in, you’re out.


25 posted on 06/30/2010 8:29:32 AM PDT by Talisker (When you find a turtle on top of a fence post, you can be damn sure it didn't get there on it's own.)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
It was the abandonment of the constitution by liberals, social conservatives and fiscal conservatives that has damaged our country the most. This only occurred after more then 100 years of deliberate indoctrination and propaganda by socialists. Your belief in God or a god or belief in no god or belief in whatever kooky spiritualism is “in” this week with disenchanted soccer moms doesn't change the constitution one iota. Only by adherence to the founding document will our civil society provide equal protection for all beliefs...no matter how kooky.
26 posted on 06/30/2010 8:31:45 AM PDT by Durus (The People have abdicated our duties and anxiously hopes for just two things, "Bread and Circuses")
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To: RockinRight
My problem is that the so-called social conservatives have proven that on fiscal matters they spend as much as Democrats.

My theory tends to be take away their money. That solves 90% of the problems in a single step. Then negotiate with the Social Cons and Libertarians over what is left. Like I said when there is no money to spend there isn't much you can do other than give people their freedoms.

And it turns out that without the nanny state there to give handouts people tend to turn to family, faith and community for support. That's where the Social Cons make their impact and earn their converts.

The government should not concern itself with forcing people to be moral. But it turns out that when the full cost of immorality is born by the immoral person, rather than being pawned off on the taxpayer as it is now, morality tends to be self reinforcing. For example want to during yourself into the gutter and make yourself unemployable, without nanny government to pay your way and provide "Homes for the homeless" you starve or freeze. Of course there are many church groups that will help you to get sober and clean yourself up. But they will demand that you give up the immoral lifestyle. But note that free choice is absolutely preserved. What the church groups provide is provided voluntarily, the IRS man doesn't make them give. And the drunk has the free choice to stay in the gutter or accept the hand up.
27 posted on 06/30/2010 8:32:52 AM PDT by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

Spot on. The root of our problem is a breakdown in the moral order. Adams noted “Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”

Unfortunately, over the past 50 years our government and educational institutions have been hijacked by those who would undermine the moral order necessary for the proper functioning of our republic. Laws and the interpretation and enforcement of same is a reflection of an underlying moral consensus.

Americans have had it pounded into their heads that we must be value neutral, that all views carry equal weight therefore all traditional views of morality must be checked at the door. The result has been social programs promoting the breakdown of the family, government sanction of the murder of millions of innocents and the view that debt and credit expansion is somehow the same as wealth creation.

Morality and structure and order are all intertwined and the bedrocks of a functional civil culture. It’s too bad the foundations have been destroyed and our choices now reflect that destruction.


28 posted on 06/30/2010 8:36:22 AM PDT by bereanway (Sarah get your gun)
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

Yes, “conservative” just equals “libertarian” in some circles. A lot more frequently on FR, too. When I argue a conservative position on a social issue on this board, I am accused of being a “nanny stater.”


29 posted on 06/30/2010 8:36:38 AM PDT by Persevero
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To: RockinRight

A ten year old was the grand marshall of an Arkansas gay parade last week.

Great stuff, huh?


30 posted on 06/30/2010 8:37:48 AM PDT by Persevero
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

There are very few aspects of social conservatism that can be successfully legislated. One need only to look at the failed war on drugs to see proof of that. While I agree with many of the goals of social conservatism (end abortion, less drug use, freedom from religious persecution) I still believe that the way to achieve them is by beating back the government to a small, relatively powerless entity. By doing this I believe both sets of conservatives will get what they want. What worries me is that I see many social conservatives who don’t care if we have a large oppressive government as long as it oppresses the correct people.


31 posted on 06/30/2010 8:40:48 AM PDT by RightOnTheBorder
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To: RightOnTheBorder
What worries me is that I see many social conservatives who don’t care if we have a large oppressive government as long as it oppresses the correct people.

Theocracy is not the answer. A democratically elected government of moral men is. The government should not legislate morality, but the legislature should by all means be moral. The responsibility is upon the people to not elect immoral men to office. A responsibility which unfortunately they have all but abandoned. But bringing in Iranian Mullahs, Cromwell's Puritans, or the Spanish Inquisition (and nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition) is not a valid alternative.

32 posted on 06/30/2010 9:02:45 AM PDT by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: RockinRight

You are correct.

If the thumpers want to split from financial conservatives, I say let ‘em.

With them out of the way, I think we gather more “centrist” voters than we’d lose.

And it’s not just getting votes. It’s about aligning idealogy.

Religionists tend toward some responisibility to “help others” which goes against the grain of liberty.


33 posted on 06/30/2010 9:03:07 AM PDT by Pessimist
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To: Pessimist

You can always vote democrat.

If you don’t want us “Thumpers” (Nice derogatory term by the way) obviously you would be a lot happier among the democrats.


34 posted on 06/30/2010 9:06:34 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: Persevero

“When I argue a conservative position on a social issue on this board, I am accused of being a “nanny stater.””

Well, is that becuause your arguing “there oughta be a law”?

More law = less liberty and more gvt.

How conservative is that?


35 posted on 06/30/2010 9:07:58 AM PDT by Pessimist
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To: Pessimist
Religionists tend toward some responsibility to “help others” which goes against the grain of liberty.

So long as that remains a personal obligation and not a state obligation, I not only accept it, but in fact support it. It is the differences between the prohibition against the establishment of a state religion and separation of church and state. Something that Liberals seem unable to understand. The government can encourage private charity without having to pour money into it. This is largely by getting the bureaucrats out of the way so that good people can do good works.

Everyone has the absolute right to give all they have. Nobody has the right to give a single penny that was not theirs to begin with. That statement is not just fiscally conservative but moral as well.
36 posted on 06/30/2010 9:13:10 AM PDT by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: RockinRight
"It’s been the abandonment of fiscal sanity for fake,

Bible-thumping nanny-state psuedo-conservatism that has destroyed our society, actually.

It used to be that family and social values were a given regardless of politics - THAT is the problem, not some politicians position on gay marriage."


Well said!
37 posted on 06/30/2010 9:14:49 AM PDT by Codeflier (Bush, Clinton, Bush, Obama - 4 democrat presidents in a row and counting...)
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To: GonzoGOP

Part of the problem is the shifting parameters. By the standards I’m seeing from the centrists I’m a Godless evolutionist bible thumper.

I can’t count the number of times my local fishwrap screamed about my congressman “preaching from the house floor” but I do know that they offered proof exactly zero times. Instead they base their feelings on the fact that he’s a Baptist minister and all the popular papers call him a fundamentalist. Basically they lie because that’s all they can do.


38 posted on 06/30/2010 9:23:10 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: dila813
That was the point my friend. Your “belief” is in the reality of natural laws... am I right. Ones belief has to be locked on to reality to work properly.
39 posted on 06/30/2010 10:18:55 AM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: cripplecreek

Great quotes! Man... were those guys radicals.. lol... even to some who have added their “comment” to this post.

Thankd god for them. They had the vision.

http://www.learntheconstitution.com/five-thousand-year-leap.html


40 posted on 06/30/2010 10:22:03 AM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: cripplecreek

Great quotes! Man... were those guys radicals.. lol... even to some who have added their “comment” to this post.

Thankd God for them. They had the vision.

http://www.learntheconstitution.com/five-thousand-year-leap.html


41 posted on 06/30/2010 10:22:29 AM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: RightOnTheBorder

I see many social conservatives who don’t care if we have a large oppressive government as long as it oppresses the correct people

I disagree with that big time... Social conservatives want people to be delivered from their oppressive immoral consequences and be free. That is what social conservatism does. It gives the mechanics for a healthy society.


42 posted on 06/30/2010 10:26:39 AM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: nmh

AMEN! my brotha..


43 posted on 06/30/2010 10:27:47 AM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: Durus

I strongly disagree. The writers of our Constitution clearly stated that it is only suitable for a morally upright people or it otherwise will NOT work.

And I agree. The morally abject use our laws (yes, our Constitutional laws) against us, to their advantage.

They now number just over 50% and are the majority in power.


44 posted on 06/30/2010 10:33:49 AM PDT by Miztiki
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To: RockinRight

It use to be...

http://www.learntheconstitution.com/five-thousand-year-leap.html

Liberal Christianity without the True Gospel is called socialism or the New tone.


45 posted on 06/30/2010 10:36:57 AM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: GonzoGOP

I don’t quite get what your point was... not forsing any thing on any one... but.. Absolutes are absolutes. Truth is truth. Morality transcends the vain imaginations of godless man, and natural laws must always prevail as they are relevant and absolute... that’s what I’m saying..


46 posted on 06/30/2010 10:39:26 AM PDT by The Ignorant Fisherman
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman
I don’t quite get what your point was... not forcing any thing on any one... but.. Absolutes are absolutes.

It is the difference between teaching and forcing at the point of a gun. I can tell someone, if you do something immoral, bad things will happen (by the natural law) and nobody is going to help you. If the person continues with the behavior is question, bad things happen to them.

As for Absolutes, who's absolutes. Yours and mine are apparently quite different. If God shows up in person that's fantastic. But until then it appears that your point of view is that if you have the all the guns and all the money you get to tell me how to live my life and you will tolerate no discussion on the matter. Well that tends to put the absolute priority in my life of making darn sure I keep my guns and money as far away from your control as possible.
47 posted on 06/30/2010 10:51:31 AM PDT by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
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To: Miztiki
What do you strongly disagree with?

If people are immoral enough to ignore the law than no law will restrain them regardless of the law or the form of government. It is not unique to our republic.

If, as people here have claimed, our constitutional republic is the form of government inspired by word of God I would expect more Christians to understand the basic principles of constitution but an unfortunate amount don't. In fact I know people very knowledgeable concerning the bible that really don't grasp why we need a separation between church and state.

48 posted on 06/30/2010 10:57:01 AM PDT by Durus (The People have abdicated our duties and anxiously hopes for just two things, "Bread and Circuses")
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To: Durus

I disagree that the abondonment of the constitution is what destroyed out country most.

I say the abondonment of God’s laws concerning morality is what did it.

My reasoning is this: If all Americans were to adhere to the Constitution right now, we’d still be in a huge mess. Why? There’s nothing unconstitutional about the press having an agenda in their reporting. There is nothing unconstitutional about teachers having an agenda. There is nothing unconstitutional about Social Security or welfare or any number of laws and actions that are hurting our country.

So that is why I disagree. The fundamental problem with our country is that we have lost our understanding of right and wrong. We think of self and not the greater good.

I agree with the substance of your post I’m replying to though. And as a God fearing person, I also agree that there is a need for seperation of church and state. I hope to some day live in God’s kingdom, but that is something man cannot bring about.


49 posted on 06/30/2010 11:15:21 AM PDT by Miztiki
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To: The Ignorant Fisherman

Belief denotes faith in something that can’t be proven.

Knowledge is based in facts.

I don’t believe in these social conservative principles, I know they are true hard facts.

The fact is, the Social System is driven by human behavior that is provable and has been demonstrated repeatably. Without taking this into account, you can’t have fiscal conservatism because society breaks down and will raid the Treasury.

One can’t live without the other. They sustain each other.


50 posted on 06/30/2010 11:17:13 AM PDT by dila813
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