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Obama Canít Prove Heís American
drkates view ^ | December 28, 2010 | drkate

Posted on 01/02/2011 1:00:02 PM PST by opentalk

Notwithstanding Obama’s lack of constitutional eligibility for the office he occupies as a direct result of his father’s citizenship, Obama can’t even prove he is an American. In fact the only thing we can confirm about Obama is that he is a foreigner–foreign to America, foreign to the english language, and ignorant of our history. At this late date, after millions of dollars spent, people mysteriously dying, and the jailing of a decorated Army officer–all of whom questioned Obama’s legality–any so called ‘birth certificate’ produced now is nothing more than suspect, and it is more than likely another faked document…a worthless piece of paper just like all of Obama’s so called ‘credentials’.

We know Obama was born British, is likely a Kenyan citizen, and is Indonesian; we know he was never naturalized as an American citizen; we know there is no record of his name change from Barry Soetoro to Barack Hussein Obama, II; we know he lied on his Illinois bar form about his previous names; we know he is using a stolen social security number, and that he has multiple social security numbers, and we know that Obama has a forged selective service registration.

Who does this kind of stuff except an illegal alien?

One of the things Obama cannot prove is that he is an American. He won’t release anything and asks us to believe him…as he robs our savings, our livelihood and our America.

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

TOPICS: Chit/Chat
KEYWORDS: 57states; antfreemarket; antiamerican; antibusiness; anticapitalism; barrysoetoro; bc; birthcertificate; birthers; certifigate; collusion; communist; corruption; crimes; criminal; dnc; dunham; eligibility; fordfoundation; foreignschoolaid; foreignstudent; forgeddocuments; forgeries; fraud; hawaii; identityfraud; identityfruad; illegalalien; ineligibility; johnbrennan; liar; lies; msm; naturalborncitizen; no2ndterm; norecords; obama; obamalieas; pelosi; photospdbackgroud; progressives; soetoro; unconstitutional; undocumented; usurper
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To: Fantasywriter

Thanks!!!!!!! Please ping anyone you know that you think could work with us on this. When that paragraph gets written, I have got one powerful idea taking shape. I’ll let you in on it when the paragraph gets done. I’ve got some kinks to work out. But let me’s an idea that is in the truest spirit of FReeperdom.

651 posted on 01/07/2011 9:02:13 PM PST by daisy mae for the usa
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To: daisy mae for the usa

Hi again, Daisy. I am still very pressed for time, so this will be short. I will plan to write more tomorrow if need be.

I just want to say that when talking to average joes—i.e.: people who haven’t already set their minds in concrete, and are open to the discussion—*how* you approach the issue is more important than the bullet points. Iow, the goal is to persuade, and so the method is as important as the content.

The best way to put people at their ease and open their minds to your point is to ask a question. Most people love to be queried. It gives them a chance to talk, and indicates that you care what they think and are willing to listen.

The best opener I can think of is, ‘What’s your theory on why Obama has spent millions to conceal his birth certificate?’

The question is nonthreatening, but also interesting. Most people don’t know he’s spent millions—and quite a few don’t even know his BC is a deep dark secret. They may ask how you know these things. Have a citation handy, so you come across as well informed and reliable.

If they’re not forthcoming at that point, juice it up a bit. Say something like, ‘My guess is there is something on the BC that he really, *really* needs to hide’.

Since you offer this as a ‘guess’, you’re still not in their face; you’re still not perceived as a hard-line proselytizer. In fact, you’re inviting them to add their best guess to this intriguing mystery: what IS he hiding???

I really don’t have the time to elaborate, but that’s the basic gist. Lead people to speculate. Lead eventually, if possible, to the idea that Obama Sr. may not be the dad on the BC. That will really make them wonder. What IS on it??? Explain that if Sr. is on it, Obama is not a NBC. So the BC must cite the name of an American father. If you get my drift?

The idea is that by the time you’re done, they know Obama is spending Big Bucks to hide something. If all goes according to plan, they will even be wondering who the real dad is. Win, win, win.

Or so it seems to me. I have ideas about calling Boehner & crew also, but I have a ton of other stuff to do, so that’s it for now. Best on your project—may it succeed beyond your wildest dreams.

652 posted on 01/07/2011 9:17:36 PM PST by Fantasywriter
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To: daisy mae for the usa
Some ideas:

**Continue with the word of mouth efforts by sending e-mails to friends, posting on facebook, and in forums like FreeRepublic.

**Open letters to the conservative media personalities that have ignored or belittled Obama’s eligibility. Staying polite and laying out rational arguments in these letters is a better strategy than being insulting. Post them on forums like FreeRepublic.

** Donate to World Net Daily’s billboard campaign.

** Personally, As I travel about during the day, I try to leave a few “sticky notes” with “Where's the Birth Certificate” written on them. For example: On the driver's window ( or under the windshield wiper) of the car next to mine in the parking lot, on a box of cereal in the supermarket, or at the soda dispensing fountain in gas station carry-outs. It is best to use something that is easily discarded and causes no damage because vandalism that is hard to clean up would really tick people off.

** More ambitious would be forming an organization of birthers that would go in person to petition the attorney general of their state to open an investigation and subpoena key documents. Of course petitioning our state and federal reps should be part of the effort. On an ambitious level, the birthers would organize a national march on Washington.

653 posted on 01/08/2011 3:51:14 AM PST by wintertime (Re: Obama, Rush Limbaugh said, "He was born here." ( So? Where's the proof?))
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To: daisy mae for the usa
Fact: Citizens have asked Obama to prove his natural born status. Some have even been military officers.

Fact: It is simple to prove one’s natural born status

Fact: Obama has **never** proved his natural born status.

Fact: Ordinary Americans prove it with common and easily accessible documents. They do so for many reasons that are far less vital than being president.

654 posted on 01/08/2011 3:59:27 AM PST by wintertime (Re: Obama, Rush Limbaugh said, "He was born here." ( So? Where's the proof?))
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To: wintertime; Fantasywriter

Wintertime-Love the sticky note thing! Fantasywriter-I see what you mean about wording! I have to be away from my computer until Monday afternoon. But when I come back, I will FRmail y’all with my idea. Thanks for your thoughts!!!!

I’m so excited!!!!

655 posted on 01/08/2011 7:50:56 AM PST by daisy mae for the usa
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To: wintertime

Some MORE ideas:

Let’s get back to basic math; 2 + 2 = 4. Watch the video (link below)

Perhaps we can start our own Solidarity Party here in the USSA and plaster 2 + 2 = 4 stickers all over the country to bring awareness to the masses that our government officials are trying to tell us 2 + 2 = 5.

656 posted on 01/08/2011 7:51:40 AM PST by Hotlanta Mike (TeaNami)
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To: Diver Dave

As I’ve been reading through some of these posts from today I see conflicting statements regarding the 14th amendment.

Below is a link to an interview with Kris Kobach on the original intent of 14th Amendment. Kris helped write the Arizona immigration law. The main point is that the 14th states that a Citizen is one born to parents with “allegiance to no foreign powers”. BHO Sr. had allegiance to Great Britain at the time of Jr’s. birth.

Here’s another interview with the arrested ‘Birther’ Theresa Cao and an attorney named Billy discussing her outburst during the Congressional reading of the United States Constitution on 1/6/2011. Billy the attorney explains what a “natural born Citizen” IS.!

Let’s be honest here. It’s not up to us to prove Obama’s eligibility. He works for us. We allow him to govern (”consent of the governed”). Therefore he has to answer to us. The coward needs to show us his “bona fides”.

657 posted on 01/08/2011 8:16:19 AM PST by Hotlanta Mike (TeaNami)
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To: daisy mae for the usa

Another approach might be warranted. Why not turn it all around and have someone define the issue for you. It may cause them pause and start researching the issue a bit deeper.

1) What is a “Natural Born Citizen”?

2) What is a “Native Born Citizen”?

3) What is a “Naturalized Citizen”?

4) Why is the term NBC specifically used in the Constitution only for 2 offices which control 1/3 of the co-equal branches of government?

Original Intent: You could ask someone to tell you what their belief is of the original intent of the Founder’s relating to the highest elected offices in the land was. Was it for a citizen with divided loyalties (allegiances to multiple powers) or sole loyalty to the United States?

658 posted on 01/08/2011 8:49:52 AM PST by Hotlanta Mike (TeaNami)
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To: wintertime

Some MORE MORE ideas:

If you recall there was a committee set up during the 2008 election to investigate and rule on John McCain’s eligibility. Both Obama and Hillary sat on that committee.

I am wondering whether it makes sense to issue a FOIA to the Senate on the notes and deliberations made during that committee to see if any discussion.

Question: Why hasn’t anyone publicly questioned McCain why he was investigated despite the fact he had 2 citizen parents that both served in the military, and Obama presumably had a foreign citizen as father?

Another Question: Why hasn’t anyone publicly asked Mitch McConnell (Senate minority leader) why only McCain was investigated, and not Obama?

659 posted on 01/08/2011 9:05:37 AM PST by Hotlanta Mike (TeaNami)
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To: Ender Wiggin

So it would take just one or two states to make the others look foolish? ( least I think in this case)

660 posted on 01/09/2011 1:40:37 PM PST by Hotdog
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To: Fantasywriter; wintertime; Hotlanta Mike; Red Steel; opentalk

I said I would come back today with a new idea.

But now, with the deaths of John Wheeler, Judge Roll and the many in AZ, and Asley Turton and the vitriolic response shown by MSM towards conservatives I am seriously concerned about any action any normal person would take that could be twisted to mean aggression. We are truly in dark times.

I am not ready to give up, but I am not at a final place of proactive POSITIVE solution, either. I am very aware that there is an evil undercurrent seeking to incite good Americans to the point of chaotic reaction which they will use to overcome our nation and turn it to their vision.

It feels to me as if there is a battle, and I am not speaking metaphorically, that is going on right under our noses, but not involving the average American. But since I am not any kind of in the know person, I really don’t even know who is battling who! It’s odd.

So the battle rages, and I keep thinking, “I need to jump in and help the good guy!” But then I realize, I can see some bad guys, but I really can’t figure out who the “good guy” is, except for us—the average folks!

But I do know that the little 9 year old girl who lost her life this weekend deserved better. And her face needs to live on brightly in our conscious as we strive to figure this out, and save our republic—for her, for the many patriots who have fought for this soil in days past, and for our children.

661 posted on 01/10/2011 6:36:26 PM PST by daisy mae for the usa
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To: Diver Dave
If Bambi is qualified by way of the 14th as Bruce Campbells Chin claims, there’s no mention in the 14th of a “Natural Born Citizen” and at the same time that the 14th was ratified, wouldn’t Article 2 have needed to be amended to qualify a non-natural born citzen?

That would be a great argument if there was a concrete definition of "natural born citizen" in Article 2, expressly requiring jus sanguinas citizenship to be considered a "natural born citizen". But there isn't. So what you're left with is the common-sense reading of the 14th Amendment that offers citizenship at birth. And in addition to that, you've got reams of legislation and even Supreme Court precedent hold the exact same thing.

The Supreme Court already addressed this issue in U.S. v. Wong Kim Ark, which dates all the way back to 1898. Feel free to read up on it, but essentially, the Supreme Court said that a man of Chinese descent, born of two Chinese citizens in the U.S., was a "native-born citizen".

Now there are plenty of reasons why you could disagree with that decision, and argue that it should be overturned or changed by Amendment. I do myself. But that has been the law in this country, as defined by the Supreme Court, since 1898, and you can't go simply back and revoke the citizenship status of any person granted citizenship under that precedent, which is really what you're advocating.

662 posted on 01/11/2011 9:41:32 AM PST by Bruce Campbells Chin
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To: Bruce Campbells Chin

Native Born does not Natural Born make...

663 posted on 01/11/2011 1:14:17 PM PST by Hotlanta Mike (TeaNami)
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To: daisy mae for the usa

Hi again, daisy. I meant to write back sooner but I got distracted by a couple of new eligibility threads. I’m getting excited afresh by some of these developments; it looks like 2012 will be Obama’s political Waterloo, if he doesn’t trip over the eligibility issue even before then. It has got to be worrying him. With Chris Matthews and Abercrombie discussing it, and now new legislation being prepared in Montana, the net is tightening. I wouldn’t want to be in Obama’s fraudulent shoes tonight.

Anyway, I read your post twice, and I was so glad you were back. You always write such interesting and uplifting comments. Yes, the Tucson tragedy is almost more than one can comprehend, isn’t it? And talk about vitriol. It’s been just unbelievable, how the MSM and the Dems have exploited this against conservatives. So very shameful! As you said, it’s up to us to remember that little girl and the others. How could anyone shoot an innocent little 9 yo??? Prayers for the families of all who suffered loss.

Daisy, I think perhaps one of the single most important things we can do is contact our elected officials. We need to praise the ones who are doing the right thing, and encourage those who aren’t to get started. Fortunately I think the pols are nervous after what the TEA party did in Nov. They may be in more of a mood to listen to us now than before. We just need to keep the calls and emails coming. Perhaps the group you were trying to organize could commit to making x-number of contacts per week. We could encourage each other, and keep each other motivated. Just a thought.

Well it’s late and I have to write an email before I can head to bed. I meant to post back to you sooner, though, so I took this opportunity. Thanks again for the lovely post. Blessings to you.

664 posted on 01/11/2011 10:30:59 PM PST by Fantasywriter
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To: Fantasywriter
FYI. That information I posted there is a part of a larger compilation you may find interesting. The long (and still growing as time permits) version...


How can a USURPER command our armed forces?
How can a USURPER make appointments to the Supreme Court?
How can a USURPER sign any treaties with foreign governments?
How can a USURPER sign anything into law, let alone the health care monstrosity?


“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children. goes on to say this about Obama Sr., Jr. and the British Nationality Act of 1948:

In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii)* and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC.
* Assumes yet to be proven HI birth


Even the modern day State Department rules discusses the problems associated with dual citizenship:

7 FAM 081: U.S. Policy on Dual Nationality:

(e)While recognizing the existence of dual nationality, the U.S. Government does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Dual nationality may hamper efforts by the U.S. Government to provide diplomatic and consular protection to individuals overseas. When a U.S. citizen is in the other country of their dual nationality, that country has a predominant claim on the person.


the U.S. Supreme Court has stated that dual nationality is a "status long recognized in the law" and that "a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to the responsibilities of both." See Kawakita v. United States, 343 U.S. 717 (1952).

They can't. Of course not. Yet, right there, on his campaign web site F.T.S., it's stated that a foreign government "governed" Barry from birth and the reason it did, was that Barry inherited (by birthright) that foreign citizenship by way of his foreign national father (no matter where he was born), a fact backed up by Assuming, of course, that Sr. was his legal father at birth.
How, then, could he possibly be a "Natural Born Citizen" of the U.S.?
Barry Soetoro, the divided citizen at birth!

Barack Obama a/k/a Barry Soetoro * NOT Obama / Soetoro
* This assumes HI birth, which is yet to be verified.
A citizen of 2 countries at birth.

Bottom line: Even IF (big IF) he was born in HI, he was born a subject to the crown of her majesty the Queen of England by birthright. He could not be considered a Natural Born Citizen as known by and as intended by the framers.


What follows, is a bit of information with regards to the Constitutional term "Natural Born Citizen" (specifically) and NOT about the entire makeup, functions, origins and influences that made/make up our form of government, a Constitutional Republic. Clearly, the framers relied upon many different sources to create our new form of government.

Who, or "what" constituted a natural born citizen was well known to the framers. Jay would not have made such a suggestion to the others (Washington & the rest of those in attendance at the Constitutional Convention) unless there was a clear understanding of what that term meant. The definition comes from a source that not only were the framers familiar with, but the founders (many who were both) as well. And yes, even though many could not speak French, most read French (except, notably, Washington who would defer to Jefferson when such interpretation was needed).
NBC in the Constitutional drafts:

June 18th, 1787 - Alexander Hamilton suggests that the requirement be added, as: "No person shall be eligible to the office of President of the United States unless he be now a Citizen of one of the States, or hereafter be born a Citizen of the United States." Works of Alexander Hamilton (page 407).

July 25, 1787 (~5 weeks later) - John Jay writes a letter to General Washington (president of the Constitutional Convention): "Permit me to hint, whether it would be wise and seasonable to provide a strong check to the admission of Foreigners into the administration of our national Government; and to declare expressly that the Commander in Chief of the American army shall not be given to nor devolve on, any but a natural born Citizen." [the word born is underlined in Jay's letter which signifies the importance of allegiance from birth.]

September 2nd, 1787 George Washington pens a letter to John Jay. The last line reads: "I thank you for the hints contained in your letter"

September 4th, 1787 (~6 weeks after Jay's letter and just 2 days after Washington wrote back to Jay) - The "Natural Born Citizen" requirement is now found in their drafts. Madison's notes of the Convention
The proposal passed unanimously without debate.

There, we can see crystal clear evidence that the framers wanted the citizenship requirement for the Commander in Chief to be MORE than simply a "citizen." As much as possible, they wanted someone born with alligience owed soley the the United States. If they didn't, they would have accepted Hamilton's suggestion earlier in the debates. Furthermore, Hamilton clearly knew the difference between a "citizen" and a "natural born" citizen as he was eminently familiar with Vattel. See Rutgers v. Waddington below for but one example of how much Hamilton, a prominent lawyer in N.Y.C., relied upon Vattel.


Original French version of Vattel's Law of Nations:

Emer de Vattel, Le droit des gens, ou Principes de la loi naturelle, vol. 1 (of 2) [1758]

From Chapter XIX, 212 (page 197 of 592) [Note: a ~22 MB PDF]:
Section title in French: "Des citoyens et naturels"
To English: "Citizens and natural" Clearly there is a differentiation made between "Citizens" and "Natural" (born citizens). See below.

French text (about citizens): "Les citoyens sont les membres de la societe civile : lies a cette societe par certains devoirs et soumis a son autorite, ils participent avec egalite a ses avantages."
To English: "The citizens are the members of the civil society: linked to this society by certain duties and subject to its authority, they participate with equality has its advantages."
French text (about "natural" born citizens): "Les naturels, ou indigenes, sont ceux qui sont nes dans le pays, de parens citoyens"
To English, gives this: "the natural, or indigenous, are those born in the country, parents who are citizens"

A fairly detailed, historical, etymology of the term "Natural Born Citizen" can be found here:

Prior to the Constitution

"This 1758 work by Swiss legal philosopher Emmerich de Vattel is of special importance to scholars of constitutional history and law, for it was read by many of the Founders of the United States of America, and informed their understanding of the principles of law which became established in the Constitution of 1787. Chitty's notes and the appended commentaries by Edward D. Ingraham, used in lectures at William and Mary College, provide a valuable perspective on Vattel's exposition from the viewpoint of American jurists who had adapted those principles to the American legal experience."

From "Two centuries' growth of American law, 1701-1901, Volume 1" by Yale Law School:
In William And Mart College, President Lyon G. Tyler states that the Law of Nations was taught first by the Professor of Moral Philosophy in 1779, and continuously since, the text-book being Vattel until 1861. This seems to have been at Jefferson's suggestion.(pg. 518)

When our government took its place among nations, its statesmen were guided by the treatises of Grotius, Barbeyrac, The literary Puffendorf, Bynkershoek, above all, Vattel. [Madison's letters] Vattel was used, 1792-1795, by President Stiles at Yale for instruction.(pg. 516) At Harvard in 1828-29, Honorable Joseph Story, appointed Dane Professor of Law, gave lectures on the Law of Nature and of Nations. One of the books he used was Vattels. (pg. 519)

Vattel's Law of Nations, built upon "natural law - which has it's roots in ancient Greece, was influenced by Leibniz.
Even Blackstone affirmed the basis of natural law:
"This law of nature, being co-eval with mankind and dictated by God himself, is of course superior in obligation to any other. It is binding over all the globe, in all countries, and at all times: no human laws are of any validity, if contrary to this; and such of them as are valid derive all their force, and all their authority, mediately or immediately, from this original” (1979, 41). In this passage, Blackstone articulates the two claims that constitute the theoretical core of conceptual naturalism: 1) there can be no legally valid standards that conflict with the natural law; and 2) all valid laws derive what force and authority they have from the natural law."

Why natural law, Vattel vs English common law, Blackstone: "The English common law provided that an alien naturalized is “to all intents and purposes a natural born subject.” Co. Litt. 129 (quoted and cited in Rhodes, 27 F.Cass. at 790). With such recognition, a naturalized citizen would have been eligible to be President of the new Republic."

American writers quoted The Law of Nations on constitutional law, almost immediately after the book's publication (In original French in 1758, and English in 1760). In 1764, James Otis of Massachusetts argued, in one of the leading pamphlets of the day, "The Rights of the British Colonies Asserted and Proved," that the colonial charters were constitutional arrangements. He then quoted Vattel, that the right to establish a constitution lies with the nation as a whole, and the Parliament lacked the right to change the fundamental principles of the British Constitution.[35] Boston revolutionary leader Samuel Adams wrote in 1772, "Vattel tells us plainly and without hesitation, that 'the supreme legislative cannot change the constitution,' 'that their authority does not extend so far,' and 'that they ought to consider the fundamental laws as sacred, if the nation has not, in very express terms, given them power to change them.' "[36] In a debate with the Colonial Governor of Massachusetts, in 1773, John Adams quoted Vattel that the parliament does not have the power to change the constitution.[37]

Thomas Jefferson (for one example) had the 1758 version as well as a 1775 version in his own library:
Thomas Jefferson's Library: A Catalog with the Entries in His Own Order (under a section he titled "Ethics. Law of Nature and Nations."

John Jay, President of the Continental Congress from 1778 to 1779 and, from 1789 to 1795, the first Chief Justice of the United States, leading opponent of slavery and the founder who wrote to George Washington regarding the suggestion that the POTUS be a NBC , had Vattel in his home library:
"One division [Of the library in Jay's "Bedford House"] contains the favorite authors of the Chief Justice, weighty folios of Grotius, Puffendorf, Vattel and other masters of the science of international law, standard theological and miscellaneous works and the classic authors of antiquity. Pg. 108. "

In AUTOBIOGRAPHY by Thomas Jefferson, he states: "On the 1st of June 1779. I was appointed Governor of the Commonwealth and retired from the legislature. Being elected also one of the Visitors of Wm. & Mary college, a self-electing body, I effected, during my residence in Williamsburg that year, a change in the organization of that institution by abolishing the Grammar school, and the two professorships of Divinity & Oriental languages, and substituting a professorship of Law & Police, one of Anatomy Medicine and Chemistry, and one of Modern languages; and the charter confining us to six professorships, we added the law of Nature & Nations..." This was 8 years prior the the writing of the Constitution! [See the "Law of Nature & Nations" section of his personal library to get an idea of what he included in this curriculum in America's 1st law school].
Note: Vattel, is one of only 10 "footnotes" in Jefferson's Biography, from Yale.

Vattel was the most popular of all writers on the law of nations in America before, but especially after, the American Revolution. Vattel's The Law of Nations arrived, shortly after its publication, in an America, which had already been greatly influenced by Leibniz.[24] No later than 1770, it was used as a textbook in colleges. It was often quoted in speeches before judicial tribunals and legislatures, and used in formulating policy. Following the Revolution, Vattel's influence grew. Vattel was cited far more often than Grotius and Puffendorf, in court proceedings, from 1789 to 1820.[25]

Among those citing Vattel in legal cases and government documents, were Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, James Wilson, Alexander Hamilton, James Madison, John Jay, and John Marshall. John Adams, the future delegate to the Continental Congress, second President of the U.S., and father of President John Quincy Adams, recorded in his Diary on Feb. 1, 1763, that after spending the day frivolously, instead of reading and thinking, "The Idea of M. de Vattel indeed, scowling and frowning, haunted me."[26] In 1765, Adams copied into his Diary three statements by Vattel, "of great use to Judges," that laws should be interpreted according to the intent of the author, and every interpretation which leads to absurdity should be rejected.[27] In a letter to the Foreign Minister of Denmark, in 1779, Benjamin Franklin quoted Vattel, and "his excellent Treatise entitled Le Droit des Gens."[28] James Madison, as a member of the Continental Congress in 1780, drafted the instructions sent to John Jay, for negotiating a treaty with Spain, which quotes at length from The Law of Nations. Jay complained that this letter, which was probably read by the Spanish government, was not in code, and "Vattel's Law of Nations, which I found quoted in a letter from Congress, is prohibited here."[29] Later, John Marshall, during his thirty-four years as Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, quoted Vattel by far the most among all authors on the law of nations.[30]

The Declaration of Independence

Delegates to the First and Second Continental Congress, which produced the Declaration of Independence, often consulted The Law of Nations, as a reference for their discussions. One important reason why the delegates chose to meet in Carpenters Hall, was that the building also housed the Library Company of Philadelphia. The librarian reported that Vattel was one of the main sources consulted by the delegates during the First Continental Congress, which met from Sept. 5 to Oct. 26, 1774.[31] Charles W.F. Dumas, an ardent supporter of the American cause, printed an edition of The Law of Nations in 1774, with his own notes illustrating how the book applied to the American situation.[32]   [Franlin/Dumas connection].  In 1770, Dumas had met Franklin in Holland, and was one of Franklin's key collaborators in his European diplomacy. He sent three copies to Franklin, instructing him to send one to Harvard University, and to put one in the Philadelphia library. Franklin sent Dumas a letter, Dec. 9, 1775, thanking him for the gift. Franklin stated, "I am much obliged by the kind present you have made us of your edition of Vattel, It came to us in good season, when the circumstances of a rising State make it necessary frequently to consult the law of nations. Accordingly, that copy which I kept (after depositing one in our own publick library here, and sending the other to the College of Massachusetts-Bay, as you directed) has been continually in the hands of the members of our Congress now sitting, who are much pleased with your notes and preface, and have entertained a high and just esteem for their author."[33]

The concepts of "natural law" and the phrase "Laws of Nature" (of which Law of Nations is built upon) are found within the language of the Declaration of Independence itself:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed
Those (& others) are clearly NOT derived from English law, but rather from natural law concepts (which can be found in Vattel's Law of Nations).

Undeniable Proof The Founders Translated "naturels" to "natural born" Six (6) Years BEFORE The Constitutional Convention!:
From the Library of Congress: Journals of the Continental Congress, 1774-1789 -- FRIDAY, JULY 27, 1781

This accepted translation of 'naturel' in 1781, predates John Jay's 1787 letter to George Washington by 6 years.

This 'naturels' means 'natural born' translation in 1781 was subsequently confirmed by the 1797 translation of the part of the relevant sentence and paragraph in Vattel's Law of Nation, Vol.1, Chapter 19, Section 212, that is, "natural-born Citizens, are those born in the country, to parents who are citizens". Thus when the founders and framers wrote the Constitution in 1787 they clearly knew what "natural born Citizen" meant when they upgraded the Citizenship requirement in Article II from simply being a "born Citizen" as proposed by Hamilton to that of being a "natural born Citizen" as recommended by Jay as a strong check against foreign influence on the persons in the future who would be President and Commander of the military. And that meaning was understood to be a person born in the country to parents who are Citizens of the country. Such a person has sole allegiance and unity of citizenship at birth to only the United States. That was the intent of the founders and framers for that legal term of art, natural born Citizen, in Article II, Section 1, Clause 5 of the U.S. Constitution. This restriction on the type of Citizen who could be President was a national security issue to them back then and it is still a national security issue to us now.


Alexander Hamiliton uses Vattel as the standard.
Rutgers v. Waddington (1784): In 1784, Alexander Hamilton, as the lawyer for the defense, arguing in the case of Rutgers v. Waddington, quoted prolifically from Vattel’s, The Law of Nations. The Waddington case shows how Vattel shaped Hamilton’s thinking. Hamilton argued that the law of nations was part of the common law and that the decisions of the New York Legislature must be consistent with the law of nations. Hamilton used Vattel as the standard for defining the law of nations. Hamilton argued that state law was superseded by national law and the law of nations. He also argued that the intent of the state legislature had to be that their laws be applied in a fashion that was consistent with national law and the law of nations. Judge James Duane (whom Hamilton studied under) in his ruling described the importance of the new republic abiding by the law of nations, and explained that the standard for the court would be Vattel. He ruled that the New York statue passed under the color of English common law must be consistent with the law of nations. Hamilton espoused a concept of constitutional law which he obtained from the teachings of Vattel. It was Vattel that gave him the idea of the judicial branch of government making sure that both the legislative and executive branches follow the Constitution. It was Hamilton’s views on Vattel that lead to the creation of judicial review which was included into the Constitution and which was later given prominence by Chief Justice John Marshall. It was Vattel’s idea of what the purpose of government should be (promote commerce, revenue, agriculture, tranquility, happiness, stability, and strength) that Hamilton advocated to the convention delegates in 1787.

The adoption of a constitution, by the Constitutional Congress in 1787, based on Leibnizian principles rather than British legal doctrine, was certainly not inevitable. However, British legal experts such as Blackstone, who argued that the Parliament and King could change the constitution, were increasingly recognized by the Americans as proponents of arbitrary power. The early revolutionary leaders' emphasis on Vattel as the authority on constitutional law, with his conception that a nation must choose the best constitution to ensure its perfection and happiness, had very fortunate consequences for the United States and the world, when the U.S. Constitution was later written...

The Constitution

The concepts of "natural law" continued in the Constitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union


Article 1. section 8, clause 10:

"To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations"

Again, those phrases are not from England's common law, but rather from natural law and even specifically mentions "Law of Nations."

Emerich de Vattel kept Cicero's teachings at the forefront of the political and philosophical debates leading to the creation of the United States and its Constitution.195 In correspondence with the publisher of the English edition of Vattel, Benjamin Franklin reported, "[Vattel] has been continually in the hands of the members of our Congress now sitting...(see [Franlin/Dumas connection])"196 Modern scholars have noted further that Vattel significantly influenced the Constitution.197 It is in this light that we should regard Article I, which grants Congress the power to "define and punish . . . Offences against the Law of Nations,"198 and Article VI, which declares that "Treaties . . . shall be the supreme Law of the Land."199

James Madison wrote to George Washington, N. York Octr. 18. 1787:
"Since the Revolution every State has made great inroads & with great propriety in many instances on this monarchical code.[Edit: Englands "Common Law"] The "revisal of the laws" by a Committe of wch. Col. Mason was a member, though not an acting one, abounds with such innovations. The abolition of the right of primogeniture, which I am sure Col. Mason does not disapprove, falls under this head.. What could the Convention have done? If they had in general terms declared the Common law to be in force, they would have broken in upon the legal Code of every State in the most material points: they wd. have done more, they would have brought over from G.B. a thousand heterogeneous & anti-republican doctrines, and even the ecclesiastical Hierarchy itself, for that is a part of the Common law."

George Mason, In Convention, Richmond (Debates in the Several State Conventions on the Adoption of the Federal Constitution), Wednesday, June 18, 1788:
"We have it in our power to secure our liberties and happiness on the most unshaken, firm, and permanent basis. We can establish what government we please. But by that paper we are consolidating the United States into one great government, and trusting to constructive security. You will find no such thing in the English government. The common law of England is not the common law of these states."


After the Constitution is ratified

On April 30, 1789, George Washington took the oath of office as President of the United States from the balcony of Federal Hall in New York City. The President and Congress shared space in Federal Hall with the New York Society Library.
On October 5, 1789, President George Washington checked out two books from the New York Society Library, one of which was Emmerich de Vattel’s "Law of Nations."

Founder and Historian David Ramsay Defines a Natural Born Citizen in 1789.
David Ramsay (April 2, 1749 to May 8, 1815) was an American physician, patriot, and historian from South Carolina and a delegate from that state to the Continental Congress in 1782-1783 and 1785-1786. He was the Acting President of the United States in Congress Assembled. He was one of the American Revolution’s first major historians. A contemporary of Washington, Ramsay writes with the knowledge and insights one acquires only by being personally involved in the events of the Founding period.

Ramsay reaffirms the definition a Natural Born Citizen (born in country, to citizen parents (plural)) in 1789 A Dissertation on the Manners of Acquiring the Character and Privileges of a Citizen (1789)

The Naturalization Act of 1790, which states (in relevant part) "that the children of citizens [plural] of the United States that might be born beyond the sea, or out of the limits of the United States, should be considered as natural-born citizens"

Of course, the Act of 1790 was repealed by the Act of 1795 (which did NOT attempt to define or extend the definition for NBC). What the 1st Congress had tried to do in 1790 was to EXTEND the known definition (of born in country to citizen parentS) to those born outside of sovereign territory, to citizen parentS. Of course, they can't do that. Congress (by itself) doesn't have the Constitutional authority to define (or EXTEND) the Constitutional term "Natural Born Citizen." Only a SCOTUS decision on the intent of the framers, or an amendment to the Constitution can do that.

Chief Justice Marshall in, The Nereide, 9 Cranch 388, 423 (1815), "the Court is bound by the law of nations which is a part of the law of the land"

The same definition was referenced in the dicta of many early SCOTUS cases as well...some examples:

"THE VENUS, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814) (A case on citizenship and domicile. Marshall, C.J. concurring) (cites Vattel six (6) times by name, and "law of nations" ten (10) times.)
"Vattel, who, though not very full to this point, is more explicit and more satisfactory on it than any other whose work has fallen into my hands, says
"The citizens are the members of the civil society; bound to this society by certain duties, and subject to its authority, they equally participate in its advantages. The natives or indigenes are those born in the country of parents who are citizens. Society not being able to subsist and to perpetuate itself but by the children of the citizens, those children naturally follow the condition of their fathers, and succeed to all their rights.""

SHANKS V. DUPONT, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830) (same definition without citing Vattel)
MINOR V. HAPPERSETT, 88 U.S.162,167-168 ( 1875) (same definition without citing Vattel)
EX PARTE REYNOLDS, 1879, 5 Dill., 394, 402 (same definition and cites Vattel)
UNITED STATES V WARD, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D. Cal. 1890) (same definition and cites Vattel.)"

The New Englander, Volume 3 (1845) states: "The expression ‘citizen of the United States occurs in the clauses prescribing qualifications for Representatives, for Senators, and for President. In the latter, the term ‘natural born citizen’ is used and excludes all persons owing allegiance by birth to foreign states."
Note: the "New Englander" was NOT a student law review. The first student law review appeared 30 years later, in 1875/76 at the Albany Law School..

Each and every one of the first 18 Presidents, with the exception of William Henry Harrison (#9) who was in office only 1 month (& died due to complications from a cold), from George Washington to U.S. Grant...ALL spoke of the "law of nations" in either an "Annual Message" (to Congress) and/or a "Special Message" or "Proclamation!"
More recently, Presidents Eisenhower, Kennedy, Johnson and both Bush's referenced "law of nations." In all, at least 30 of the 44 (a number that includes the 2 Usurpers Arthur and Obama/Soetoro) spoke of the "law of nations" in a message or speech.

A few of the more notable POTUS references to "law of nations" are:

  • John Adams, the 2nd President and one of the country's preeminent founders and part of the small committe appointed to draft the Declaration of Independence, in a Special Message (to the Senate) on January 21, 1801 spoke of the authority of the law of nations, and in particular, Vattel.

  • President Zachary Taylor states in his Annual Message December 4, 1849 that the act of Congress of the 20th of April, 1818 ("An Act to provide for the publication of the laws of the United States, and for other purposes" [a PDF]) owes its existence to the law of nations and to the policy of Washington himself.

  • President James Buchanan spoke of preventing or punishing offenses against the law of nations, and that that was a subject which engaged the attention of our most eminent statesmen in the time of the Administration of General Washington, in his Message to the Senate on the Arrest of William Walker in Nicaragua January 7, 1858

  • President Abraham Lincoln wrote about the power and duty given to him, by the law of nations, to exclude from the enemies of the human race (i.e. slave traders) a safe harbor in the U.S. in his Fourth Annual Message December 6, 1864

  • President Ulysses S. Grant stated, in his Special Message on July 14, 1870, that "The municipal laws enacted by Congress then and since have been but declarations of the law of nations. They are essential to the preservation of our national dignity and honor; they have for their object to repress and punish all enterprises of private war, one of the last relics of mediaeval barbarism; and they have descended to us from the fathers of the Republic, supported and enforced by every succeeding President of the United States."

  • President Grover Cleveland on the law of nations applying to relations between individual citizens (& not just between nations), in his Special Message (To the Senate and House of Representatives )December 18, 1893.

  • President William McKinley (in letters to two a different departments), on the military right derived from the law of nations, in Executive Order on May 19, 1898 to the Secretary of the Treasury and the Secretary of the Navy.

  • President Ronald Reagan stated in his Proclamation 5003 - Bill of Rights Day, Human Rights Day and Week, 1982 (December 10, 1982) "The Founding Fathers derived their principles of limited government from a belief in natural law, that is, the concept that our Creator had ordained a framework for society giving great importance to individual freedom, expression, and responsibility. They held that each person had certain natural rights bestowed on him by God. As Jefferson put it, "the God who gave us life gave us liberty." Natural law, is of course, what Vattel's "Law of Nations" is built upon.

  • Then, on July 15, 1987, President Reagan said "When the 14th amendment guaranteed "life, liberty, and property," it was echoing a basic theme of our Founding Fathers, a secular trinity, each of which is an essential component and guarantee of the others. Life, liberty, and property—they are like three pegs holding up a table. Remove one, and the whole thing comes crashing down. It seems almost old-fashioned to talk about property rights these days, but to our Founding Fathers, property rights were part of the natural law, the self-evident rights granted by God. Governments were instituted among men to guarantee them, not to take them away." in his speech, Remarks at a White House Briefing for Minority Business Owners .

  • President Bush spoke of the natural law as well and said, in a speech NSC Advisor's Remarks at Mississippi College Law Commencement on May 16, 2003, "The civil rights struggle was America's chance to resolve the contradictions inherent in its birth. And at its roots, it was a legal struggle, pitting the natural law that underpins our Constitution and Declaration of Independence against unjust laws on the books that fell far short of that ideal."


John Bingham, "father" of the 14th Amendment, the abolitionist congressman from Ohio who prosecuted Lincoln's assassins, REAFFIRMED the definition known to the framers by reiterating Vattel's definition...not once, but TWICE during Congressional discussions of Citizenship pertaining to the upcoming 14th Amendment!

Vattel's definition for "natural born citizen" was read into the Congressional Record during the Civil War.

"All from other lands, who by the terms of [congressional] laws and a compliance with their provisions become naturalized, are adopted citizens of the United States; all other persons born within the Republic, of parents owing allegiance to no other sovereignty, are natural born citizens. Gentleman can find no exception to this statement touching natural-born citizens except what is said in the Constitution relating to Indians." (Cong. Globe, 37th, 2nd Sess., 1639 (1862)).


Vattel's definition for "natural born citizen" was read into the Congressional Record after the Civil War.

every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” (Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866))"

SCOTUS, in an 1887 case cites Vattel a number of times and reitterates that his work was translated into English in 1760:
"Vattel in his Law of Nations, which was first printed at Neuchatel in 1758, and was translated into English and published in England in 1760" U S v. ARJONA, 120 U.S. 479 (1887)

SCOTUS, in 2003, stated "For two centuries we have affirmed that the domestic law of the United States recognizes the law of nations." [Note: the link is to a PDF]

It's interesting to note that (non binding) Senate Resolution 511, which attempted to proclaim that Sen. John McCain was a "Natural Born Citizen" because he was born to citizen parentS, even they referenced the (repealed) Naturalization Act of 1790: "Whereas such limitations would be inconsistent with the purpose and intent of the `natural born Citizen' clause of the Constitution of the United States, as evidenced by the First Congress's own statute defining the term `natural born Citizen'".
Obama, himself, was a signatory of that resolution knowing full well (no doubt) the requirement has always been about 2 citizen parents.

The point is that up until relatively recently, the SCOTUS, the Congress, Presidents and the country were well acquainted with the law of nations and Vattel's edition in particular. It is also that, with the exception of the repealed Act of 1790 which tried to EXTEND the definition, the meaning of the term "Natural Born Citizen" (of the U.S.) has ALWAYS been about being born within the sovereign territory or jurisdiction of the U.S. to 2 citizen parents (& therefore parents who do NOT owe allegiance to another, foreign, country and who often then pass that foreign citizenship & allegiance owed on to their child - by birthright).
This compilation (& work in progress) has been added to and improved with the help, hard work and comments of many FReepers (including, but not limited to: Spaulding, bushpilot1, Red Steel, BP2, El Gato) and many of the "eligibility" lawyers and/or their clients (including, but not limited to: Mario Apuzzo, Leo Donfrio)

665 posted on 01/12/2011 1:36:48 PM PST by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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To: Hotlanta Mike
Native Born does not Natural Born make...

How do you know that? The Constitution never defines the term "Natural Born". That's the entire problem.

666 posted on 01/13/2011 10:23:43 AM PST by Bruce Campbells Chin
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To: Bruce Campbells Chin

Ignorance is not a defense...the Senate even put itself on record in 2008 with their special commission on which Obama and Hillary were both serving. As a matter of fact, Obama tried but failed to get himself included in the non-binding resolution.


The Senate defined “natural born Citizen” in 2008, and Obama didn’t qualify


So if “Obama” qualifies because he has 2 citizen parents, then his biological daddy is not BHO Sr. and thusly has deceived the American public as well as people who purchased his books and provided him with campaign donations for running for public office based on a false life narrative. I would suspect many people (perhaps even a large classaction group) would be filing lawsuits for false impersonation. As a matter of fact, California has a new law criminalizing false impersonation on the iternet...just sayin’!

667 posted on 01/13/2011 10:54:35 AM PST by Hotlanta Mike (TeaNami)
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Would you please enlighten us and describe what exactly is required, in your opinion, to be a natural-born citizen and eligible for the Presidency?

There must be SOME requirement, right? Otherwise, Schwarzenegger could run...and the Senate would not have investigated McCain...and there wouldn’t have been questions raised about Goldwater, Arthur, Obama, etc...

668 posted on 01/24/2011 10:25:58 AM PST by dinodino
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To: dinodino

I think the admin moderator banned TNTNT . He was an agitator on many threads.

669 posted on 01/24/2011 9:02:12 PM PST by opentalk
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