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Rand Paul is a RINO ^ | February 27, 2011 | Roger F. Gay

Posted on 02/27/2011 3:51:37 AM PST by RogerFGay

I can't help but notice that the new wave of Tea Party Republicans, said to be on probation until they've proven themselves, have quickly circled their wagons to defend the established RINO culture. To make the point, we might as well start with the extremely popular young senator Rand Paul. But if you're paying attention, you too will notice the “business as usual” talking point repeated by many others.

On February 24, 2011, Senator Paul was interviewed by David Letterman. Here is the excerpt that this article addresses.

Letterman: “In this day and age, what does it mean if you're a member of the Republican Party? What are the precepts? What do we stand for?”

Paul: “Well, we wanted to mean something. When I ran, I said the Republican Party is an empty vessel unless we imbue it with values. What I mean by that is kind of what the Tea Party says. You gotta believe in something. I think during many of the Bush years we became just like the Democrats. We could spend money just as fast as the Democrats could and we ran up the debt and that was a problem for me. I thought really that government needs to live within its means.”

Letterman: “Live within its means. So that's the headline for the Republican Party. If you're a Republican, you stand for fiscally responsible government, first and foremost. Is that right?”

Paul: “I think so, and I think that unifies a lot of people.”

Letterman: “And what about the Tea Party. Does that overlap with the Republican precept?”

Paul: “Yeah, and the difference is though the Tea Party … [will] tell you if you don't vote correctly or if you vote with the Republicans when they're voting to bankrupt the country, we'll bring you home too. They're not very shy about it.”

My question: Where's the Constitution – the one that enforces limited government and individual rights?

Let's review. There are three major kinds of conservatives competing to control US politics; social, political, and fiscal.

Social conservatives have proven just as politically dangerous as social liberals. Both favor arbitrary increases in government power and the use of force to intrude upon individual freedom. Both have contributed equally to the collapse of Constitutional rule.

American political conservatives are basically the modern version of classic liberals and the last actual defenders of Constitutional rule in the United States. There must be a structured relationship between government and the people that does not allow arbitrary government intrusion.

Fiscal conservatives are politically equivalent to fiscal liberals. There are no set rules that limit government involvement in anything and everything, just political preferences. They are also often just as much in favor of more government and more spending. If a pork-barrel scheme is promoted as an “investment” of public money that will eventually reduce spending, self-described fiscal conservatives are just as quick to jump on the band wagon as liberals, no matter how weak the argument that more spending equals savings. Over the past three decades, they have frequently voted in favor of arbitrary increases in government power to suit their agenda. They also tend to ally with social conservatives in order to win elections. In one major scam, they pretended arbitrary federal intrusion into marriage and family law would save taxpayer dollars by reducing poverty. Not only did the welfare budget skyrocket as a result, the institution of marriage was destroyed and took out fundamental individual rights with it.

Rand Paul is misleading when he equates fiscal conservative rhetoric with imbuing values in an empty vessel. Fiscal conservatism isn't values, it's a set of relative actions taken in context. We are once again being told to accept a government of people and not of laws. Paul and other new Republicans are not presenting a reformed Republican image. They're reselling the old one, and our experience already tells us that doesn't work and why. Fiscal conservatives do not imbue fundamental rules in the relationship between government and the people in their empty vessel.

Fiscal conservatism is a set of relative actions taken in context. It is not a set of values.

Video link - Rand Paul on Letterman, Feb. 24, 2011

KEYWORDS: conservative; constitution; randpaul; republican; rinofreeamerica; teaparty; teapartyexpress; teapartyrebellion
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To: txlurker
Gay did not mash abuse on that. Someone else did.

Your link went to a liberal website attacking Gay largely for his writings against AGW propaganda - and also belittling American conservatives in general. Not something we want to give linkage to.

101 posted on 02/27/2011 6:54:27 AM PST by Admin Moderator
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To: txlurker

I have no idea. I don’t have administrative authority here and haven’t heard anything about posting problems or removals.

102 posted on 02/27/2011 6:54:53 AM PST by RogerFGay
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To: RogerFGay
Social conservatives did more to destroy marriage than anyone else

I read the POPS vs Gardner summary, though your link didn't work. It seems it was about divorce more than marriage. I guess the core of "social conservatism" would be strongly against divorce in the first place, and strongly for monogamy. So , to say that "social conservatism" "did more to destroy marriage than anyone else" indicates that you're approaching from a different direction. In fact "social conservatism" is one one of the bedrocks upon which the Constitution was founded. Let me play "Kreskin," or however you spell the Johnny Carson character-- you , or a very close friend, got beat up in court over custody and child support issues, and you now live in Sweden to be outside of the jurisdiction

103 posted on 02/27/2011 6:55:02 AM PST by gusopol3
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To: RogerFGay

Why not show some real balls and examine the natural born citizen issue with as much fervor? You don’t need to take a side just report on all of the facts.

Like the March 4th USSC hearing, the Larkin case.

104 posted on 02/27/2011 6:55:40 AM PST by stockpirate (U-6 Total unemployed for January 2011 16.1 percent)
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To: gusopol3

The conclusion is based on actual political history - not a loosely constructed theory. The Reagan administration promoted “government enforcement of personal responsibility” - a pretty obvious oxymoron that started me on the path of understanding the level of stupidity involved in politics. People whose political views are steered by socially conservative values jumped on the band-wagon in droves. Divorce and marriage law is the same thing. It’s also called family law and was previously a state issue (as the Constitution would have it) under “civil law.” More than that, the USSC had previously defined marriage as a “sacred, private institution.” The POPS case changed that by redefining marriage and family issues as “social policy.” I guess I’ll have to find another link to the POPS case.

105 posted on 02/27/2011 7:02:45 AM PST by RogerFGay
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To: Admin Moderator

I didn’t accuse him of having it pulled. I was asking about his residential status. A private post to me would have sufficed by you or him.

106 posted on 02/27/2011 7:03:21 AM PST by txlurker
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To: RogerFGay
"Therefore, acceptance of same-sex marriage is Constitutionally required."

Is THAT a fact?

Perhaps we're talking of two distinct documents because the USC I'm familiar w/ contains no such requirement.

The USC is not a suicide pact that requires us to destroy the social fabric in the name of "fairness". If you do not understand the foundational nature of heterosexual marriage and its necessity for the maintenance of society then I'm afraid that you are a dunderhead and that any further argument is pointless.

107 posted on 02/27/2011 7:03:55 AM PST by Pietro
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To: stockpirate

My balls aren’t real?

108 posted on 02/27/2011 7:04:20 AM PST by RogerFGay
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To: Pietro
Under the USC, there is no such thing as "social policy" to begin with. It's a name for a classification invented by federal courts to accommodate extra-Constitutional activities by the federal government. In terms of individual rights and protection against arbitrary government policy, it's equivalent in stature to fiscal policy. You have no individual right that will get your tax rates declared unconstitutional; except under "equal treatment" - doesn't matter whether you find that exact phrase in the Constitution or not. The term "social policy" is used when referring to welfare programs. A welfare recipient can similarly not have their entitlements increased by Constitutional argument - except for equal treatment.

The transition to social policy from civil law was a redefinition of marriage from a sacred private institution to an element of government welfare programs; where equal treatment (equal entitlement to government program benefits) arguments apply.
109 posted on 02/27/2011 7:12:47 AM PST by RogerFGay
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To: RogerFGay
My balls aren’t real?

Who cares? Answer the question about your residency guy. Why won't you say yes I reside in the states or no I don't.

110 posted on 02/27/2011 7:14:11 AM PST by txlurker
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To: gusopol3

I was an expert witness in P.O.P.S. - a scientist who created the most complete theoretical child support decision model in the world.

111 posted on 02/27/2011 7:14:23 AM PST by RogerFGay
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To: RogerFGay

No doubt you made some good points re Bentley, but I think you’re riding your cause into battle rather than a more comprehensive principle.

112 posted on 02/27/2011 7:15:31 AM PST by gusopol3
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To: gusopol3
I think you’re riding your cause into battle rather than a more comprehensive principle.

Abandoning the Constitutional relationship between government and the people to allow arbitrary government control is a pretty big thing.
113 posted on 02/27/2011 7:22:46 AM PST by RogerFGay
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To: RogerFGay


114 posted on 02/27/2011 7:33:21 AM PST by gusopol3
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To: governsleastgovernsbest; JLS


115 posted on 02/27/2011 8:05:33 AM PST by RogerFGay
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To: RogerFGay

When I’m asked, “What defines a Conservative”, my first item is, “One who believes in personal responsibility”.

I was waiting for him to say something about that.

116 posted on 02/27/2011 8:29:28 AM PST by FrogMom (No such thing as an honest democrat!)
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To: gwilhelm56
You are wasting your time and wasting a perfectly good term. You can go all the way back to political analysis written by a variety of observers in the United States that refer to the practice of Republicans latching onto popular Democrats to run as Republicans ~

You really have to learn to refer to Leftwingtards by their correct name ~ which NEVER has the word Republican in it.

McCain still isn't a RINO ~ never was. He's stuck dealing with LBJ's agenda. It's totally out of synch with the time, but you'll find his position is absolutely identical to that of Jerry Ford and Richard Nixon at that time on almost every Democrat initiative.

And if you want to denounce Nixon as a RINO, go ahead and we'll hoot you off the stage.

117 posted on 02/27/2011 9:31:59 AM PST by muawiyah (Make America Safe For Americans)
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To: muawiyah; gwilhelm56

A semantic argument trying to replace substance? I’ve never seen that in a political discussion before. (lol) RINO can refer to any politician who uses the Republican name brand but doesn’t adhere to conservative principles. Having previously been a Democrat and switching to the Republican Party name brand for political convenience (like union leader Ronald Reagan for example) is not required.

118 posted on 02/27/2011 11:59:33 AM PST by RogerFGay
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To: RogerFGay
I see what your problem is. You are trying to confound CONSERVATIVE and REPUBLICAN.

That doesn't work for a wide variety of reasons ~ one of which is that ALL Conservatives aren't Republicans, and another that ALL Republicans aren't Conservatives.

It's also impermissible to confound TEA Party with REPUBLICAN Party, and vice versa.

119 posted on 02/27/2011 12:53:12 PM PST by muawiyah (Make America Safe For Americans)
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To: muawiyah

Oh, is that my problem? Everyone was waiting for the judgment to be handed down. I suppose I should click over to CNN and see how they spin it now.

120 posted on 02/27/2011 12:54:37 PM PST by RogerFGay
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To: RogerFGay

Ronald Reagan never ran for political office as a Democrat.

121 posted on 02/27/2011 12:54:58 PM PST by muawiyah (Make America Safe For Americans)
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To: RogerFGay
BTW, that's not a SEMANTIC argument ~ it's one of elemental substance, to wit: POLITICAL entanglements versus IDEOLOGICAL entanglements.

Some terms are perfectly suited to politics ~ to wit, RINO; other terms are perfectly suited to ideology ~ to wit, LEFTWINGTARD (which has multiple variations).

Remember, as so many others have had to learn the hard way, COMMUNISTS cannot be dealt with like they were simply members of a political party, nor can ISLAMOFASCISTS be thought of as just another religion.

122 posted on 02/27/2011 12:58:39 PM PST by muawiyah (Make America Safe For Americans)
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To: muawiyah

Oh, if you mean “to wit” - that’s different.

123 posted on 02/27/2011 12:59:40 PM PST by RogerFGay
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To: muawiyah

And yet, he never really stopped being one - no matter how many times he ran for office.

124 posted on 02/27/2011 1:00:38 PM PST by RogerFGay
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To: RogerFGay
This would be the Rand Paul who got in trouble for criticizing the Civil Rights Act of 1964?

He's covering his rear end and trying to avoid getting into needless trouble, saving his energies for issues that really come up before Congress and that he can actually do something about.

That makes sense. Attacking him for not specifically saying on one occasion everything you want him to say is silly. Rand Paul is more of a "political conservative" in your sense or constitutional conservative than 98% of Congress and more of one than most people would vote for. His giving a canned maximalist answer that would bring canned negative responses wouldn't advance your agenda at all.

His dad is already known as the guy who wants to roll back government to where it was in 1960 or 1930 or 1900 or 1860 and most people safely ignore or dismiss whatever he says because it's become so expected from him and has so little to do with current issues and controversies.

125 posted on 02/27/2011 1:09:53 PM PST by x
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To: x

Oh yeah. I forgot about that trick. I should have thought about the stuff he was hiding from us rather than what he came right out and said. Let’s see. I’m lookin’ for a new car. I’m imagining he’s sending me a new car. I can see it in my mind. He’s sending me a new car. OK. I guess I’ll vote for him repeatedly.

126 posted on 02/27/2011 1:35:39 PM PST by RogerFGay
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To: RogerFGay

What is CNN and why are you watching it?

127 posted on 02/27/2011 2:13:49 PM PST by muawiyah (Make America Safe For Americans)
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To: muawiyah

CNN is an international television news network. They’re reporting your judgment now - world wide.

128 posted on 02/27/2011 2:18:45 PM PST by RogerFGay
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To: RogerFGay
The US is currently operating completely within the boundaries of our Constitution, as it always has, by definition.

The problem that you and I have is that we both believe that those boundary lines have been spread too far and wide. Others, however, believe they haven't been spread nearly far nor wide enough.

We claim that there is no need to interpret the Constitution; that what it says is all there in plain clear English. Others, who also have votes, disagree. They believe in an evolving Constitution that is able to be flexible with changes in technology, culture, and society in general.

If we want our particular vision, which we believe to be the correct one, to succeed in the political arena then we need to limit ourselves to successful tactics.

There is a party which has been clearly and consistently stating a position in favor of Constitutionally limited government for some time. They have even put candidates on numerous ballots for a variety of political offices up to and including the Presidency of the US.

Theirs has not been a successful strategy.

129 posted on 02/27/2011 2:37:22 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

Of course we’re not operating within Constitutional boundaries. We’re no longer operating according to Constitutional rule. There are prescribed procedures for making changes to the Constitution. It’s unconstitutional to operate unconstitutionally just because someone says they feel good about it.

Political parties are what one might call extra-Constitutional. The US political system is not a partisan system. If you want partisan politics to represent the views of the people the way you describe, then you need a multi-party representational system - which the US does not have.

The poor quality of our de facto “two-party system” is a far cry from evidence that the majority opposes politicians who believe in Constitutional rule. That’s just a naughty argument.

130 posted on 02/27/2011 2:59:53 PM PST by RogerFGay
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To: RogerFGay
Good luck with your efforts. You aren't by any chance The Popular Front, are you?

131 posted on 02/27/2011 3:05:27 PM PST by who_would_fardels_bear
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To: RogerFGay

A conservative is a conservative. You are a troll.

132 posted on 02/27/2011 9:24:46 PM PST by Theophilus (Not merely prolife, but prolific!)
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To: who_would_fardels_bear

You’re the one defending abandonment of Constitutional limits to government power. That would mean the only check / balance / control of power would be based on democracy - power of the vote. While that part of the system is controlled by an oligarchy, there isn’t democracy either. Are you a Stalinist?

133 posted on 02/28/2011 12:54:25 AM PST by RogerFGay
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To: who_would_fardels_bear
It is every American's duty. It's not just a good idea. It's the law.
134 posted on 02/28/2011 1:26:33 AM PST by RogerFGay
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To: who_would_fardels_bear
‎"The Constitution is not neutral. It was designed to take the government off the backs of people." -– Justice William O. Douglas
135 posted on 02/28/2011 3:50:53 AM PST by RogerFGay
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To: Theophilus

I have a friend who’s conservative in the use of cat sand. In your view, is that what’s being talked about here?

136 posted on 02/28/2011 3:52:11 AM PST by RogerFGay
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To: Impy; Cincinatus' Wife
Heh. Rand Paul called a RINO? It doesn't seem to be because he called for cutting off support for Israel and deceasing military spending first. Oh well, eventually his "true conservative" fan club will get buyer's remorse, since I agree he's more in the libertarian camp than the mainstream conservative camp.

I can't say I agree with the article's premise. I don't think social, political, and fiscal conservatives are competing for what it means to be conservative. In most cases, there's a lot of overlap and the conservative base pushes for all three. We DO have a problem that there are so many phony "fiscal conservatives" in government today that the term has essentially become meaningless, but the tea party and the club for growth have done a good job rooting out the phony "fiscal conservatives". Rand Paul DOES seem to be genuinely fiscally conservative. However, I question his commitment to the other two "legs" of conservativism, and 1 out of 3 isn't my ideal.

I don't buy the divide between "paleocons" and "neocons" either. The term "neo-con" has pretty much been made meaningless as well. But if GWB's vision of spreading "freedom" to the world is a good example of neo-conservative, and Pat Buchanan's isolationist views are a good example of paleoconservative, I refuse to identify as a member of either camp.

If there any type of modern-day division between conservative grassroots, I would place them in these two camps:

Traditional conservative: (as defined by Cincinatus' Wife) [Less government power at] Federal, state AND local levels! - Cut off their endless demands for our money and limit the time they need to show up for "work."

'Democracy is evil' "conservative": Shrink federal government to minimal levels. In fact, pretty much repeal any powers they've gained since 1789. Maybe even remove powers they had in 1789 and go back to the "articles of confederation" arrangement. However, INCREASE the level of current state and local government powers. Take power AWAY from individual citizens if necessary to do this, because states make wiser decisions than the little people and know what's best for us. Increase their power, perks, and the time they need to show up for work.

When it comes to those two competing philosophies, I place myself firmly in the first camp. Unfortunately I see a great many "conservative activists" promoting the beliefs of the latter camp, and it seems to be increasing popular. Maybe I should call it neo-dixiecratism, since their arguments seem to have been tried and failed miserably in the 1850s. ;-)

I agree that probably every GOP Senator has been called a "RINO" at some point or another. DIABLO is a good way to distinguish the truly horrid "Republicans" who vote just like Democrats, unfortunately it doesn't seem to have caught on as well and many people have no idea what it means. We wouldn't have this problem if people would just use the Republican In Name Only epitaph in its proper context, instead of making it all encompassing and including "people who vote the right way 90% of the time but went wobby on one or two important bills" in the RINO category.

137 posted on 02/28/2011 2:48:58 PM PST by BillyBoy (Impeach Obama? Yes We Can!)
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To: RogerFGay

Bipartisan is nothing but a synonym for date rape.

Nobody, us Or the left, goes into a voting booth and votes “Bipartisan”.

138 posted on 03/08/2011 11:20:18 AM PST by To-Whose-Benefit? (It is Error alone which needs the support of Government. The Truth can stand by itself.)
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To: EternalVigilance

Maybe we should insist that Bernake print up enough to pay reparations in exchange for the elimination of all socialists programs. we will have all the money in 6 months.

139 posted on 04/20/2011 4:50:39 PM PDT by screaminsunshine (Shut up and eat your Beans!)
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