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Have We Reconciled
Old Virginia Blog ^ | April 13, 2011 | Richard Williams

Posted on 04/16/2011 6:27:28 AM PDT by Davy Buck

This is a perplexing question, as it relates to the WBTS. In some ways, yes. In others, no. I, like many of you, recently (and for the 3rd or 4th time), watched Ken Burns' PBS documentary, The Civil War. Even though I have several criticisms of the Burns' film, I still find it a fascinating piece of work and very educational. I've always thoroughly enjoyed watching the film, despite its shortcomings. One of the more moving parts of this film comes near the end, as shown below. Pay close attention at about 30 seconds in and listen as historian David McCullough narrates the moving "reenactment" of Pickett's charge at the 50th anniversary reunion at Gettysburg. I believe one can detect the emotion in McCullough's voice as it sounds like he almost chokes up in recounting the emotional event. I don't think he's acting. I don't mind admitting that I too was moved with emotion in hearing McCullough recount the story . . .

(Excerpt) Read more at oldvirginiablog.blogspot.com ...


TOPICS: Education; History; Military/Veterans; Politics
KEYWORDS: civilwar; confederacy; thecivilwar; union
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1 posted on 04/16/2011 6:27:31 AM PDT by Davy Buck
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To: Davy Buck

I can’t bring myself to watch anything by uber-Communist Burns after I saw him compare Robert E. Lee to Adolph Hitler on a talk show a few years back. I also had a buddy who once had to drive Burns to an event from an airport. My buddy said that he was a completely self-absorbed prick, kinda like a white Spike Lee.


2 posted on 04/16/2011 6:30:13 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner (Sarah Palin has crossed the Rubicon!)
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To: Davy Buck

Reconciled?

What has changed since that event (not a question)!


3 posted on 04/16/2011 6:37:25 AM PDT by gunnyg ("A Constitution changed from Freedom, can never be restored; Liberty, once lost, is lost forever...)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
My feeling, frankly, is that Ken Burns has an unnatural love for black men. He can cover just about any topic you want, but at some point he will begin extolling the virtues of strong, courageous black men. His eyes start shining, and the drool collects on the side of his mouth.

A lot of Liberals are like that.

4 posted on 04/16/2011 6:38:12 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: Davy Buck

I see and hear many experts and historians talk about why Southerners (and only Southerners) are still so divisive about the Civil War. The causes of the war are written about and discussed endlessly but not very much is said about the aftermath, except for partial stories of the founding of the KKK. Told from a victor,s view. I would suggest a documentary along the lines of “The Civil War” on the era known as RECONSTRUCTION. An honest look at this period, 1865-1880 would go along way in explaining just why we are so defensive and defiant.


5 posted on 04/16/2011 6:43:55 AM PDT by Tupelo (The Boudicca from Wasilla supporter)
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To: Davy Buck

I have friends from all over the country, but even with similar interests there is, to me, an almost foreign aspect to some of them. The pot is far from melted yet.


6 posted on 04/16/2011 6:44:19 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER
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To: Tupelo
What I find so interesting about the first 80-100 years of this country's existence is that the entire period was marked by internal political/cultural conflict that later culminated in the Civil War.

This conflict was primarily "urban" vs. "rural" in nature, and was rooted in the philosophical differences between Hamilton's view of a strong Federal government and Jefferson's view of a loose confederation of states. In the first few decades after the American Revolution it was more of an East vs. West conflict, with the urban centers along the coast set against the rural uplands of Appalachia.

The settlement of the Midwest in the first half of the 19th Century and the Irish immigration of the 1850s likely changed all of this and turned the East-West differences into a North-South conflict. The Appalachian Mountains were no longer a frontier, and most of the Irish immigrants settled in northern cities and thus provided cheap labor for the North and drive the Industrial Revolution that ultimately spelled the South's doom.

7 posted on 04/16/2011 6:52:01 AM PDT by Alberta's Child ("If you touch my junk, I'm gonna have you arrested.")
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To: Davy Buck

Have we reconciled? The Civil War was not just about slavery and racism but also about the federal government sticking their nose into how states did their business. So no, we haven’t reconciled. Many blacks still have great anger over the past and the federal government is still like a hungry monster, seeking to gobble up as much power from the states as possible. The only good thing Obama and his administration has done is to bring this to the surface.


8 posted on 04/16/2011 6:54:08 AM PDT by Bed_Zeppelin
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To: Alberta's Child

Good summary. Prior to the Civil War, just about every important question was basically a form of “Which region will come out on top?” After the Civil War, the answer was always “The Federal government will come out on top.”


9 posted on 04/16/2011 6:55:39 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: Tupelo
An honest look at this period, 1865-1880 would go along way in explaining just why we are so defensive and defiant.

IMO, so long as there are Republican and Democrat political parties, any such attempt will dissolve into a partisan mud-wrestling match. (good idea, though)

10 posted on 04/16/2011 6:56:02 AM PDT by Roccus
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

re that “pot”
*****

**********

”We are the only country in history that ever deliberately changed its ethnic makeup, and history has few examples of ‘diversity’ creating a stable society.”

Richard Lamm, former governor of Colorado“

Food for thought...

**********


11 posted on 04/16/2011 6:56:20 AM PDT by gunnyg ("A Constitution changed from Freedom, can never be restored; Liberty, once lost, is lost forever...)
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To: Bed_Zeppelin

somewhere i read—must’ve been Dr DiLorenzo—that prior to the so-called civil war, the federal gubmint received 80% of its revenue from the south—dishonest abe certainly would never let that go...


12 posted on 04/16/2011 7:04:52 AM PDT by gunnyg ("A Constitution changed from Freedom, can never be restored; Liberty, once lost, is lost forever...)
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To: Tupelo
I would suggest a documentary along the lines of “The Civil War” on the era known as RECONSTRUCTION. An honest look at this period, 1865-1880 would go along way in explaining just why we are so defensive and defiant.

Excellent suggestion. Texas Reconstruction was so nasty and so bitterly resented that once Republican Edmund J. Davis left the governor's office in 1874, a hundred and five years would pass before another Republican, Bill Clements, could win the office in 1979. So bitter were Texans that for most of that century a Republican barely had a ghost-of-a-chance to be elected to any position. Indeed, a ghost had a better chance.

13 posted on 04/16/2011 7:09:54 AM PDT by Racehorse (Always preach the Gospel . . . . Use words if necessary.)
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To: Davy Buck
The Confederacy stands alone in history as the single greatest conservative resistance to federal authority ever.

A poster on the Old Virginia blog said this and I agree. Although my ancestors fought with the First Ohio Volunteers, I still agree that the federal government, as it exists today, is operating without constitutional authority.

14 posted on 04/16/2011 7:11:08 AM PDT by atc23
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To: atc23

There was nothing “conservative” about the confederacy.


15 posted on 04/16/2011 7:37:05 AM PDT by rockrr ("Remember PATCO!")
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To: ClearCase_guy
I think Shelby Foote said it best.
Before the war, it was said,”the United States ARE”
After the war it was said, “The United States IS.”

As for the uninformed that talk of Robert E. Lee being a traitor, please read his statement about his allegiance to Virginia. To paraphrase, “I can not raise arms against MY COUNTRY." Lee believed his country to be Virginia. Much like an Italian to day thinks of himself as an Italian not a European Unionist.

16 posted on 04/16/2011 7:48:27 AM PDT by Tupelo (The Boudicca from Wasilla supporter)
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To: rockrr
"There was nothing “conservative” about the confederacy

I know, you're a white, guilt affected liberal bedwetter, right.

Let me preempt your rant about slavery.

It would have died on its own due the to weight of its inherent cost to slave owners - probably before the beginning of the 20th century. There was no need to kill 650,000 Americans over it.

The Civil War outcome has given us the current federal government.

17 posted on 04/16/2011 7:50:15 AM PDT by atc23 (The Confederacy was the single greatest conservative resistance to federal authority ever.)
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To: Davy Buck

Some months ago, I bought the DVD set. It did NOT have the reenactment scene, which was one of my favorites, nor did it have some others. I don’t know why.
I returned it and got my money back.


18 posted on 04/16/2011 7:53:33 AM PDT by spankalib
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To: Davy Buck
So, what are your thoughts on this Davy? Do you think that "We have reconciled"?
19 posted on 04/16/2011 7:54:04 AM PDT by rockrr ("Remember PATCO!")
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

Three hundred thousand Yankees
Lie stiff in Southern dust
We got three hundred thousand
Before they conquered us.
They died of Southern fever
And Southern steel and shot.
I wish they were three millions
Instead of what we got.

I can’t take up my musket
And fight ‘em now no more,
But I ain’t going to love ‘em,
Now that is certain sure;
I don’t want no pardon
For what I was and am,
I won’t be reconstructed
And I do not give a damn.

From “I’m A Good Old Rebel”
Source:
http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/I’m-A-Good-Old-Rebel-lyrics-Cracker/CC2AF7C1703EA79E48256B04000EAEF5

Look around. Look at places like the Wisconsin state capitol. Do you see “reconciliation”, or do you see a growing division?

Honest question (and no less than honest answers from Freepers will do):
What do you see that will ever “reconcile” the left with traditional Americans and conservative values?

Just sayin’....


20 posted on 04/16/2011 7:55:25 AM PDT by Grumplestiltskin (I may look new, but it's only deja vu!)
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To: atc23

Well, at least you are consist in being wrong.


21 posted on 04/16/2011 7:57:20 AM PDT by rockrr ("Remember PATCO!")
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To: Tupelo

I don’t think so...

From the Articles of Confederation (Agreed to by Congress November 15, 1777):

Article I. The Stile of this Confederacy shall be “The United States of America.”

Preamble of the US Constitution:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


22 posted on 04/16/2011 7:59:38 AM PDT by rockrr ("Remember PATCO!")
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To: Tupelo

Lee doesn’t need to be excused or defended. His greatness continues to be an aspiration and an inspiration to those who read about him.

The others - because of their failure to grasp the greatness of Lee, will never understand what it really is to be an American.


23 posted on 04/16/2011 8:01:24 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: atc23

What you say is 100% true. And I say that as a MA man for all of my 50 years. Slavery was our biggest mistake. The ACW was our second biggest mistake.


24 posted on 04/16/2011 8:35:30 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: Davy Buck

In the 1860’s Fedzilla stole the people’s property (slaves). Today, Fedzilla steals as much property (taxes) as it can. The only things that have changed are the object of the thieves and the people’s willingness to accept it.


25 posted on 04/16/2011 8:40:53 AM PDT by matt1234 (How would obama react to a 9.0 earthquake in Kenya?)
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To: matt1234
In the 1860’s Fedzilla stole the people’s property (slaves).

_________________________________

This may be the single most ignorant and ugly post ever on FR.

26 posted on 04/16/2011 8:45:26 AM PDT by wtc911 ("How you gonna get down that hill?")
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To: wtc911
This may be the single most ignorant and ugly post ever on FR.

Thank you for complimenting me on the superlative nature of my post. It's always nice to be noticed out as a true standout.

I was commenting on the legality of federal action, not the morality of it. I am not pro slavery. However, you can bet the slaveowners viewed emancipation as theft.

27 posted on 04/16/2011 9:04:11 AM PDT by matt1234 (How would obama react to a 9.0 earthquake in Kenya?)
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To: Tupelo

‘’..just why we are so defensive and defiant’’< While living under The Stars and Stripes in the freest , greatest society in history. You Southerners are ‘’defiant’’, you’re stupid.


28 posted on 04/16/2011 9:54:22 AM PDT by jmacusa (Two wrongs don't make a right. But they can make it interesting.)
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To: Davy Buck; rockrr
The regions are still divided politically - and over similar issues.

The regions are always going to be divided politically. I don't think it's hatred, just different strokes for different folks, city mice and country mice. One "end" of the country is always going to vote differently from the other, and the main axis or rift or polarity doesn't shift easily.

But over similar issues? People with an axe to grind love to say things like that. If you're into the division enough, everything will look connected and similar, like it's all the same fight generation after generation.

But when Mississippians and Alabamans slam Clevelanders and Detroiters for not being industrious and enterprising and capitalistic and ambitious and devoted to education and technology enough, it's pretty clear that some important things have changed over the years.

Academics (and others) further accuse the Confederate heritage folks of dividing and pitting certain views against others all the while claiming their own "neutrality" and then at the same time declaring "victory" in the narrative war. How does one claim "victory" while at the same time denying there's any real divide and claiming "neutrality?" Am I missing something?

Undoubtedly, and not for the first time. When was this "narrative war"? What were the major battles? I must have slept through the war and the victory parades.

29 posted on 04/16/2011 10:32:14 AM PDT by x
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To: jmacusa
“You Southerners are ‘’defiant’’, you’re stupid.”

If you say so. Of course, I must bow to your superior northern intellect.

30 posted on 04/16/2011 11:30:59 AM PDT by Tupelo (The Boudicca from Wasilla supporter)
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To: jmacusa

You insult the region of the country that represents the largest group of Americans opposed to the leftist takeover of this country. I think your statement is the very definition of stupid.


31 posted on 04/16/2011 11:52:24 AM PDT by ohioman
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32 posted on 04/16/2011 11:55:45 AM PDT by TheOldLady
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To: Tupelo

Why don’t people like you grow up?


33 posted on 04/16/2011 12:02:33 PM PDT by jmacusa (Two wrongs don't make a right. But they can make it interesting.)
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To: ohioman

Oh, so it’s just you Southerners alone who are oppossed to Obama huh? What, you took your own survey did you? Listen General Lee,the Civil War is over and you lost. You’re opposed to a ‘’leftist’’ take over of what? The country who’s flag you hate? The nation all of you Johnny Reb wannabes want to secede from? Instead of fighting a lost war why the hell don’t you join with the rest of loyal Americans and stop fighting a war that ended 150 years ago and lets start figuring out how to get rid of this of this Marxist a-hole!


34 posted on 04/16/2011 12:15:32 PM PDT by jmacusa (Two wrongs don't make a right. But they can make it interesting.)
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To: jmacusa

I never said that Southerners alone oppossed Obama. I merely recognized the South as the most conservative part of the country, which most (left or right). would agree with. Also, who said any of us hated the US flag or this country. The truth is that Southerners make up the largest (on a per capita basis) numbers of those serving in the military. I guess all those guys are Johnny Reb wannabees as well.

The thing you miss is that Southerners are proud of their ancestors, whether they fought in Battle of the Bulge, Vietnam, or Bull Run, it makes no difference.

Flyover country in all - the South, Midwest, and Inner-mountain West represent hope for the future of this country. I refuse to denigrarte any of those regions. I’ll save that for the scum on left and east coast.


35 posted on 04/16/2011 12:41:33 PM PDT by ohioman
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To: Grumplestiltskin
The harshest cuss word my grandmother would utter was "carpetbagger". when Gran said carpetbagger you just knew the Earth was fixing to open up and swallow some Damnyankee, LOL.

She could put so much power in that word that you wanted to hide under the bed!

We weren't allowed to say "breast" or "thigh" when we asked for another piece of fried chicken because ladies and gentlemen didn't use that kind of language at the table, but Gran could say carpetbagger any time she felt the need! After she read the paper every day she said it a lot! She would be scorching ears everywhere North of here if she was alive today!

36 posted on 04/16/2011 2:09:51 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER
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To: Tupelo
Keep in mind that I actually knew people who were kids during the carnage of reconstruction, and heard about it from them. If we took on the Middle East like the Union ravished the South the "progressives" would really be raving but the conflict would be over long ago.

The Klan idea got corrupted but it was the only defense the Southern civilian population had during reconstruction.

We treated Japan and Germany far better after WW2 than the South recieved..

37 posted on 04/16/2011 2:20:39 PM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER
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To: jmacusa
"Why don’t people like you grow up?" Sir, I do not wish to engage in a battle of wits with someone that seems to have very little ammunition.
38 posted on 04/16/2011 4:22:04 PM PDT by Tupelo (The Boudicca from Wasilla supporter)
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To: Davy Buck

WBTS.
Windows Based Terminal Services?
A radio station?
Oh. War Between the States.
Nope. That one has not reconciled.


39 posted on 04/16/2011 4:27:14 PM PDT by gitmo (Hatred of those who think differently is the left's unifying principle.-Ralph Peters NY Post)
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To: Tupelo

I am from a section of the Appalachians that seceded from the Confederacy before the war started. They formed a nation called Mayland. They didn’t support slavery (the people were too poor to have ever owned any).

The South pretty much left Mayland alone, but the North was savage to the residents.


40 posted on 04/16/2011 4:34:10 PM PDT by gitmo (Hatred of those who think differently is the left's unifying principle.-Ralph Peters NY Post)
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To: ohioman

Nice way to take the conversation all over the place. You think you’re the most opposed to Obama because you live in the South? Thats conceit alright. So you’re going to tell me you’re one of those Rebs who loves The Stars and Stripes? Irony is lost on you alright. So as you see it only you Southerners are good and true Americans? And only you have ‘’ancestors’’? Mine served this nation too, from The Army of the Potomac to the US Army in WW2 and Korea. What’s your point?


41 posted on 04/16/2011 5:25:43 PM PDT by jmacusa (Two wrongs don't make a right. But they can make it interesting.)
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To: Tupelo

I have all the ammunition I need Johnny Reb. It’s called “American History’’ and it shows the South lost.


42 posted on 04/16/2011 5:27:09 PM PDT by jmacusa (Two wrongs don't make a right. But they can make it interesting.)
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To: jmacusa; Tupelo

Tupelo’s original suggestion, the one you first commented upon, was that an objective documentary detailing the Civil War Reconstruction era “would go a long way in explaining just why we are so defensive and defiant.”

Your responses are rather . . . bizarre.

Would have been kinda interesting had you criticized her suggestion rather than rambling about something she nor others were writing about. The punitive nature of Reconstruction created a political and cultural divide which lasted for decades, and for some lingers still.


43 posted on 04/16/2011 6:43:31 PM PDT by Racehorse (Always preach the Gospel . . . . Use words if necessary.)
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To: jmacusa

Being that I do not live in the South (as most recognize due to my name), you are the one all over the place. I never elevated the South above everyone else, I just refused to denigrate the South. I do not understand your hatred for Southerners, when we all are on the same political side (we being most of us on FR). Never forget that this country was founded on rebellion. We could use some of that spirit right now- together- against the left.


44 posted on 04/16/2011 7:08:16 PM PDT by ohioman
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To: Tupelo

I really do not want to get into it too much, but he raised his hand on the parade ground at West Point and swore an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. He did not swear an oath to Virginia. He did not swear an oath to support and defend the constitution of the US after defending Virginia.

I understand why he did what he did. I understand that he did what he thought was right. He paid for his “sin.”

But the oath he swore before God was the same one I took. It is the same type of oath you swear before God when you get married.

Do I think he was a traitor?


45 posted on 04/16/2011 7:15:47 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (How long before the Mall becomes Tahifir Sq?)
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To: rockrr; wardaddy

“There was nothing “conservative” about the confederacy.”

Oh, it was extremely conservative in the opinion of two of Lincoln’s fans in London, journalists Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels. The South represented the forces of reaction against the progressive agenda of the Radical Republicans.

But I can see how you would prefer that it were otherwise.


46 posted on 04/16/2011 7:16:11 PM PDT by Pelham (Islam, mortal enemy of the free world)
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To: ohioman

I don’t ‘’hate’’ Southerners. I’ve a sister-in-law from North Carolina. I’ve been there dozens of times. What my beef is Southerners still fighting the Civil War, still carrying a cross for the damned Stars and Bars. There is no one on this web-site who understands the Left and hates it more than I do-BECAUSE I USED TO BE ONE OF THEM!! And yes, we need to band together and fight them and save this nation before we really lose it.


47 posted on 04/16/2011 7:16:25 PM PDT by jmacusa (Two wrongs don't make a right. But they can make it interesting.)
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To: Racehorse

Of for Gods sake! Reconstruction? You’re still fighting over that!?! You’re hopeless.


48 posted on 04/16/2011 7:18:29 PM PDT by jmacusa (Two wrongs don't make a right. But they can make it interesting.)
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To: jmacusa

Well,at least those Southerners still fighting the war as you say direct their fight to the Federal Gov- something most of us would like to see brought under control.


49 posted on 04/16/2011 7:26:19 PM PDT by ohioman
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To: gunnyg

“somewhere i read—must’ve been Dr DiLorenzo—that prior to the so-called civil war, the federal gubmint received 80% of its revenue from the south—dishonest abe certainly would never let that go...”

And Fort Sumter was a tariff collection point. If the North lost this fort then Lincoln wouldn’t be able to impose taxes on all trade going into the port of Charleston.

South Carolinians weren’t going to tolerate being taxed by Lincoln any more than their fathers were willing to let King George continue to impose taxes on them once they had declared independence.

The South had long been aggrieved over bearing the burden of taxes that primarily benefited internal improvements in the North. This complaint went back at least 60 years to Jefferson’s administration. In 1832 it nearly resulted in war over “the Tariff of Abominations” and the Nullification controversy. President Jackson was going to use armed force to compel South Carolina to comply.


50 posted on 04/16/2011 7:37:24 PM PDT by Pelham (Islam, mortal enemy of the free world)
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