Posted on 05/01/2011 7:24:18 AM PDT by Ethan Clive Osgoode
The squabble between Darwin lobbyists who openly hate religion and those who only quietly disdain it grows ever more personal, bitter and pathetic. On one side, evangelizing New or "Gnu" (ha ha) Atheists like Jerry Coyne and his acolytes at Why Evolution Is True. Dr. Coyne is a biologist who teaches and ostensibly researches at the University of Chicago but has a heck of a lot of free time on his hands for blogging and posting pictures of cute cats.
On the other side, so-called accommodationists like the crowd at the National Center for Science Education, who attack the New Atheists for the political offense of being rude to religious believers and supposedly messing up the alliance between religious and irreligious Darwinists.
I say "supposedly" because there's no evidence any substantial body of opinion is actually being changed on religion or evolution by anything the open haters or the quiet disdainers say. Everyone seems to seriously think they're either going to defeat religion, or merely "creationism," or both by blogging for an audience of fellow Darwinists.
Want to see what I mean? This is all pretty strictly a battle of stinkbugs in a bottle. Try to follow it without getting a headache.
Coyne recently drew excited applause from fellow biologist-atheist-blogger PZ Myers for Coyne's "open letter" (published on his blog) to the NCSE and its British equivalent, the British Centre for Science Education. In the letter, Coyne took umbrage at criticism of the New Atheists, mostly on blogs, emanating from the two accommodationist organizations. He vowed that,
We will continue to answer the misguided attacks [on the New Atheists] by people like Josh Rosenau, Roger Stanyard, and Nick Matzke so long as they keep mounting those attacks.Like the NCSE, the BCSE seeks to pump up Darwin in the public mind without scaring religious people. This guy called Stanyard at the BCSE complains of losing a night's sleep over the nastiness of the rhetoric on Coyne's blog. Coyne in turn complained that Stanyard complained that a blog commenter complained that Nick Matzke, formerly of the NCSE, is like "vermin." Coyne also hit out at blogger Jason Rosenhouse for an "epic"-length blog post complaining of New Atheist "incivility." In the blog, Rosenhouse, who teaches math at James Madison University, wrote an update about how he had revised an insulting comment about the NCSE's Josh Rosenau that he, Rosenhouse, made in a previous version of the post.
That last bit briefly confused me. In occasionally skimming the writings of Jason Rosenhouse and Josh Rosenau in the past, I realized now I had been assuming they were the same person. They are not!
It goes on and on. In the course of his own blog post, Professor Coyne disavowed name-calling and berated Stanyard (remember him? The British guy) for "glomming onto" the Matzke-vermin insult like "white on rice, or Kwok on a Leica." What's a Kwok? Not a what but a who -- John Kwok, presumably a pseudonym, one of the most tirelessly obsessive commenters on Darwinist blog sites. Besides lashing at intelligent design, he often writes of his interest in photographic gear such as a camera by Leica. I have the impression that Kwok irritates even fellow Darwinists.
There's no need to keep all the names straight in your head. I certainly can't. I'm only taking your time, recounting just a small part of one confused exchange, to illustrate the culture of these Darwinists who write so impassionedly about religion, whether for abolishing it or befriending it. Writes Coyne in reply to Stanyard,
I'd suggest, then, that you lay off telling us what to do until you've read about our goals. The fact is that we'll always be fighting creationism until religion goes away, and when it does the fight will be over, as it is in Scandinavia.A skeptic might suggest that turning America into Scandinavia, as far as religion goes, is an outsized goal, more like a delusion, for this group as they sit hunched over their computers shooting intemperate comments back and forth at each other all day. Or in poor Stanyard's case, all night.
There's a feverish, terrarium-like and oxygen-starved quality to this world of online Darwinists and atheists. It could only be sustained by the isolation of the Internet. They don't seem to realize that the public accepts Darwinism to the extent it does -- which is not much -- primarily because of what William James would call the sheer, simple "prestige" that the opinion grants. Arguments and evidence have little to do with it.
The prestige of Darwinism is not going to be affected by how the battle between Jerry Coyne and the NCSE turns out. New Atheist arguments are hobbled by the same isolation from what people think and feel. I have not yet read anything by any of these gentlemen or ladies, whether the open haters or the quiet disdainers, that conveys anything like a real comprehension of religious feeling or thought.
Even as they fight over the most effective way to relate to "religion," the open atheists and the accomodationists speak of an abstraction, a cartoon, that no actual religious person would recognize. No one is going to be persuaded if he doesn't already wish to be persuaded for other personal reasons. No faith is under threat from the likes of Jerry Coyne.
Nor, apparently, your denomination's statement of beliefs. Are they secret? Or perhaps invisible?
I can recall anyone on these threads that wouldn't refer to their catechism, statement of beliefs, confession, etc. Some regularly post large portions of it.
Heck, BB, even *you* can. :)
Love does not force. You can reject God, you can willingly separate yourself from God. You can't blame "death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers…" if you do. They cannot separate you, but you can. You can make that choice. You can blame God for death, for your losses, blame Him for your suffering, you can hate God for it, you can reject what you once believed. You have free will.
Unless.. Are you a Calvinist too? :)
Whoa, I won one? :)
Alas, I think you admitted you could be wrong about everything but OSAS. Yes?
Look, the Bible is the standard yes, but on what basis do we say that say it is right to believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist (Anglican/Lutheran) or not? This is central to the former's faith and is part of the denomination's plan of salvation.
Yet others take up the Bible and disagree based on their own interpretation.
The Bible is inerrant, but human beings as individuals can and do make flawed interpretations, even well-meaning, but flawed.
Take another central matter of faith -- do we still have spiritual gifts like prophecy or talking in tongues amongst us (Pentecostals) or not (Presbyterians)? Some pentecostals would say that one has to demonstrate the former to show that one has achieved salvation, others will disagree.
The problem comes that both may interpret verses differently - and in this case, both cannot be correct, right?
Instead, what we in orthodoxy have is the passing down of the teaching, the interpretation of the scripture from Christ through the Apostles. At the end of Christ's ministry, after the Resurrection He taught His apostles one last time and what He taught could not be contained in all the books of the world -- this was the interpretation of the word, Christ's description of this to these simple fishermen etc. who were His Apostles
God did not and has not left us rudderless -- His interpretation and the practices which we practise is what He gave as rudders.
Why did the Early Christians believe and practise a faith that was similar to what we celebrate in the Divine Liturgy/Mass when we read in The Didache written in AD 70 (Apostolic Times), it reads as a description of the Mass/Divine Liturgy
10:5 Remember, Lord, your church. Deliver it from all evil and make it perfect in your love, and gather it from the four winds sanctified for your kingdom which you have prepared for it. For Yours is the power and the glory forever.
These are what we practise today, the beliefs and practises handed down from Christ Himself through the Apostles. The pure sacrifice is not a repeated one but a participation in the One pure, purest Sacrifice -- that in which the High Priest Christ gave of Himself.
Especially Catholic.
Which is exactly why I won't post denominational affiliation.
Hmm. Truth comes out.
If it were genuinely a matter of honest debate, that would be different.
Yeah, like discussing what someone's Church actually teaches.
It's used merely in a vain bid to pit Protestants at each others throats.
When we could all be at the throats of the Papist, AAAARG!
But then we can't really be sure. At least she's not a Catholic. :)
Thank for your post, too. I don't know if it is worthwhile to keep on discussing this point, but I will try once more. The Apostles and the early Christian martyrs died for what exactly? I believe they died for their faith. The faith in Jesus Christ as Messiah/Savior/Incarnate God with us. They did NOT die for the "church". They were all members of the body of Christ which is the universal church. The word church is from ekklesia which means, among other things, a called-out assembly. The word was actually used in the Old Testament when God called out an assembly of his people.
I hope you can understand that what we choose to call ourselves or what box we check on a form asking for religion or what local church we attend does not amount to anything in God's economy unless there is a heart felt faith in him and in what he reveals to us within the pages of his Bible. Sure there are different beliefs on many minor issues such as leadership hierarchy or order of worship or how certain sacramental rites are performed and on whom they are performed. There are even differences on some semi-major points, I get that, but what I am sincerely trying to get across is there is only one, holy church that is made up of ALL believers in Jesus Christ as savior. They may be from different cultures, parts of the world, the past, even within various denominations, but they all have that one thing in common and that is their faith in Christ. They believed the Gospel as preached by Jesus as taught to the disciples as passed on to the local people as passed on to the entire world as we STILL know it today.
Please don't try to convince me that the Roman Catholic Church is that true church because I know it is not. The reason why I know is because when I was personally in it I did NOT know the gospel. I was NOT saved because I did not even understand my own need to come to faith in Jesus Christ. I was never taught that it was a decision that I personally had to make to trust in him to save me. I have no doubt that there are many others in every other church out there who are just as ignorant as I was. Being a member of the church, participating in all the rituals, attending all the services, etc. was NOT what saved me. I had to come to Jesus Christ and trust in him to be my savior. I read for myself in the Bible what God said I needed to do to be saved and it was BELIEVE IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST. God took it from there and I have grown in my faith and learned his word from personal study, from reading the works of theologians, from pastors, from Sunday School teachers, from Bible studies and Bible College. I did not stop at simple faith (easybelieverism I think you called it). God moved me along and the Holy Spirit illuminated the truth in my heart.
Enough of my preaching, sorry. I hope you can see that a church is not an organization or denomination but THE church is that spiritual body of Christ that he binds together in that one faith, one hope, one baptism (the baptism of the Holy Spirit when we come to Christ). Jesus IS God and his prayer has been answered because we are one in him. Don't major on the minor stuff. The main thing is to keep the main thing the main thing. And that main thing is the Gospel.
If you're still awake, I hope you have a peaceful night.
…Is the final authority? Fail.
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Are you both confusing Holy Scripture with God?
I don't have to be a Calvinist to understand the clear teaching of Scripture that says when we are born again into the family of God he will never leave us, forsake us, cast us out OR lose us. Now that last part gets missed. He will LOSE nothing but will raise us up again on the last day. That tells me that when we genuinely place our trust in Christ we become a new creation, a child of the living God, a joint heir in Christ. We are indwelled with the Holy Spirit of promise and he is our earnest payment - like a down payment - on our eternal life.
Now can a Christian go through times of doubt? Yes, I admit I did. Can a Christian go through times of rebellion against God? Yep, did that too. But does that mean I was saved, then wasn't, then was, then wasn't, and now am again? Nope. That isn't the deal. We have been sealed until the day of redemption. Only the King breaks the seal, we cannot. A Christian going through those times I described never really loses his faith, he never totally stops believing, because he can't. The Holy Spirit does not leave us EVER. There is always that Spirit bearing witness with our own that we are His. There may be times of doubt, of sin, of rebellion, but our Heavenly Father never stops loving us, never leaves us, never deserts us, and always draws us back to Him. The key to all this: does the person truly, in his heart confess that Jesus Christ is Lord and Savior? Has he really placed his trust in him to save him? Has he admitted he is a sinner who needs a Savior? When this happens, and only God sees the heart, then he has promised everlasting life. There is nothing we do to deserve or earn his grace and mercy. You said earlier you trusted in God's justice and mostly his mercy. Well, let me assure you his justice was satisfied when Jesus died on the cross. When he said, "It is finished.", it was, The price for our freedom had been paid and his resurrection from the dead was the proof that God accepted it. He offers us his everlasting mercy, love and grace. It is ours through faith.
I am off to bed soon, not nearly enough brain to give your post the thought it deserves.
For now, thank you, and may God bless you and yours.
So you want me to admit the possibility that Jesus was not telling the truth in John 10:28? No way. I am sure you would not admit to the possibility of error in all of what you believe about Christ. IOW, you could be wrong about the resurrection?
It may be an alas to you, but hey, you are human.
Are you denying JESUS is THE WORD?
Because it is easier to throw rocks at people when they don't know which glass house you inhabit.
AMEN!!!!!
Are you serious???????
Here is my statement of faith.....
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=
Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. It is the gift of God.
Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Calvinism vs Arminianism. Arguing over differences or whether babies should be baptized, being obsessed with finding out what others believe in nit picky issues to pass judgment on them as to whether they are *real* Christians, coming from Catholics of all people
*Oh, you believe this therefore you are a Nestorian, or whatever other label they decide to slap on you = being tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine....
The basics on which Calvinism and Arminianism are found are salvation by grace through faith in Christ, being a gift of God. Are there differences in some interpretations of Scripture on things outside of that fundamental truth? Sure. Are they critical to salvation? Show me somewhere in Scripture that it says they are.
Ephesians 4:11-16 And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.
Rather, speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in every way into him who is the head, into Christ, from whom the whole body, joined and held together by every joint with which it is equipped, when each part is working properly, makes the body grow so that it builds itself up in love.
It's about what the BIBLE teaches!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The BIBLE is the final authority, not a church.
You know, I don't agree with every last thing that the church I attend states in its statement of faith. They do not demand that I do, and I am still going to heaven.
Imagine that.
I've never hid nor lied about why I won't reveal my denominational affiliation.
It's not a matter of the truth *coming out*. It's always been out. I've made no secret about it, even with all the harassment and accusations of lying that I've had to put up with from those who are peeved that I won't play their games.
Dr. E knows just what I mean.
Nor am I an Arminian. My identity is not in my denomination, nor is it in the doctrinal positions of various men. It is IN CHRIST.
Calvin didn’t save me. Arminius didn’t save me. Christ did. I am HIS and His follower, not Calvin’s and Calvin’s follower nor Arminian’s and Arminian’s follower. I don’t agree with everything either of them teaches but I don’t disagree with everything they teach either, and guess what? I’m STILL saved.
1 Corinthians 1:11-15 For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, so that no one may say that you were baptized in my name.
Well said.
That Scripture in 1 Cor. is particularly pertinent since if you don't want to be known as as a follower of Paul there are still a few posters who want to push you into that box with terms like “Paulinist or Paulian”, whatever and that is simply a way of dismissing all that you say.
If one’s faith isn't their own faith, what's the point of having it?
Galatians offers a great perspective. The people you are referring to are the "neo-judizers". The law has been redefined by their "Temple" elites and all must comply or they just don't fit in.
It's so similar to the Jews in the first century that became believers and then wanted all Gentile believers to become Jews and adhere to the law as well as believing in The Gospel.
Gal. 2:16 ...by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
When Christians understand we are saved by Grace Alone through Faith Alone in Jesus Christ Alone the power of the neo-judizers melts away. When members of their own church read Scripture and they see this Truth they leave that church. The need for them to try and marginalize is obvious.
I like to think I do, and that we share that perspective. The point about being a Calvinist on our knees is a shorthand way of saying no one prays "Dear God, give me the free will to save myself from the terrible calamity that has befallen me."
Instead, more likely men pray "Dear God, please save me from this terrible calamity that has befallen me."
"Thy will; not mine."
Ultimately, day by day, we come to realize that God's will is always superior to our own will and that one way or another, God's will is what comes about.
That's just the way of the world. He's God. He gets what He wants.
A great read for the weekend that will enrich our lives and faith...
And ultimately, exactly as Metmom said, the only name that matters is "Christian" and the only faith that saves is given by God's grace to undeserving men who are brought to the foot of the cross by the free gift of the indwelling Holy Spirit.
What is our part in all this? Paul tells us quite clearly...
Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you." -- 1 Thess. 5:16-18"Rejoice evermore.
Meant to ping you all to the great link in post 3,975.
Pink’s work does not leave men unchanged.
I can adhere to all the teachings of Calvin and think they’re right and that still wouldn’t be enough to save me.
Salvation is through Christ, not man.
If I happen to agree in some points with someone else’s doctrinal position, that happens.
Catholics seem to be singularly incapable of differentiating between putting your faith in God and man. It has been so ingrained into the Catholic mind that one must follow the pope, the IM, certain doctrinal positions, practice certain sacraments, that they cannot conceive of someone who does not follow man and man’s dictates for reaching God, or that those are all ineffective in obtaining salvation.
Salvation is about a relationship between fallen man and his forgiving Creator. It’s not do and don’t and rules and regulations. It’s about forgiveness and adoption into God’s family through faith based on God’s grace and mercy, not buying your way into it by works.
What's to confuse??? The scripture IS God's words...Some in the form of God speaking and others in the form of inspired words from God...But they are all the words of God...
Heb 4:12 For the (written) word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my (written) words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Psa 138:2 I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy (written) word above all thy name.
There's something magical about those words in that book...Those words are Spiritual...Those words are God's words...
God even magnifies those words above His name...
If you ever figure out what you are dealing with, you'll gain a little more respect for what God said...
And yes, those words of God are the final and only authority...And why is that??? You read it...The words that were spoken (and ultimately written down) will be your future judge...You'd better get the words right...
When you're kneeling before God, He's not going to ask if you were a good boy; He's going to open the book and judge you out of the things written in that book...You betcha the bible is the final authority...
“The point about being’
The point being the difference in one’s idea of salvation. Is it institutionalized, The Church, or is it personalized, all individual believers of today, tomorrow and ages past.
If one believes that salvation is institutionalized and only found in “The Church” then the creeds or statements of faith of particular denominations or churches are important. If salvation is open to everyone who believes
(1Ti 4:10.....because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.)then it is the witness of one’s faith that is important.
A big AMEN to that...
AMEN!
From the Westminster Confession of Faith (please note "Of the Holy Scriptures" is Chapter #1 and Of the Church is Chapter #25)
I. The catholic or universal Church, which is invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ the Head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of Him that fills all in all.[1] II. The visible Church, which is also catholic or universal under the Gospel (not confined to one nation, as before under the law), consists of all those throughout the world that profess the true religion;[2] and of their children:[3] and is the kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ,[4] the house and family of God,[5] out of which there is no ordinary possibility of salvation.[6] III. Unto this catholic visible Church Christ has given the ministry, oracles, and ordinances of God, for the gathering and perfecting of the saints, in this life, to the end of the world: and does, by His own presence and Spirit, according to His promise, make them effectual thereunto.[7] IV. This catholic Church has been sometimes more, sometimes less visible.[8] And particular Churches, which are members thereof, are more or less pure, according as the doctrine of the Gospel is taught and embraced, ordinances administered, and public worship performed more or less purely in them.[9] V. The purest Churches under heaven are subject both to mixture and error;[10] and some have so degenerated, as to become no Churches of Christ, but synagogues of Satan.[11] Nevertheless, there shall be always a Church on earth to worship God according to His will.[12] VI. There is no other head of the Church but the Lord Jesus Christ.[13] Nor can the Pope of Rome, in any sense, be head thereof; but is that Antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, that exalts himself, in the Church, against Christ and all that is called God.[14]
Of the Church
You'll note I prefer the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1646. Something about the poetry of the writing and the acuity of its intent. 8~)
1 Cor 2:2 For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.
I do think “statements of belief” found in individual churches are a good thing and handy to the seeker who wants to learn what a particular church believes and teaches.
Ultimately, what you want to read from these statements is that the church is subject to the word of God in all things. Can’t go too far astray if that is the case.
No difference, right?
A born again Christian can worship in his garage, or in the bottom of a coal mine...On a Saturday night in a nightclub in the midst of a rock n roll band kicking out tunes...I know, I have...
A born again Christian can worship during Friday prayer services in the middle of an Izlamic mosque while they are planning the next terrorist attack...
We are in Christ and he in us no matter when, or where we are at...
Nope...We are to study the scripture while being taught...
2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
We are to accept the authority of the pastor only as far as he lines up with the scripture...We are not to take the pastor's word for anything...Why should we, we have what he is teaching us anyway...And we're also instructed to prove what he says is true...
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
That's where you guys fail...And those that tend to 'prove' all things' seem to leave your religion...We're not instructed to believe all things the clergy tells us, but to prove all things...
You have an invisible Church but no visible Church. You lack an important part. Where do you go to "take it to the Church"?
1Co 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.
Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
The answers are in the scriptures...
Got it and will read after the week-end..am working for the most part. Thanks for the link.
CW
I have attended the Assembly of God church...I have attended Baptist churches...I have set in Congregational churches...I’ve attended a Presbyterian church...And a few others...I have even twice attended a Catholic and ate the infamous cracker...
Was there an advantage to that??? Yes, I learned a lot about what they teach and how they worship...
And although there were differences, most things they had in common one of which was that they taught folks how to accept Jesus as their personal Savior, except for one...
And another is they didn’t candy coat sin...You learned what sin is...And the remedy for it, except for one...
And there’s only one of the bunch that I will never again attend...It is far to anti- and unbiblical...
You can leave God but you can't leave the Catholic Church...Now that's scary...
He may have been at someone's house...Likely tho, he was in the open field at that back end of the farmer's market...Bible doesn't tell us there was any particular church building in Corinth...As was stated correctly, the church is not a building...
Thank you for those verses. How wonderful and loving of our God to gift this body with all the things necessary for strength, growth, maturity of the faith and all for the glory of God!
Thank you. You put that way better than I could have.
Now, in before *Lookee, the Protestants think the Bible is God and worship a book*.....
Amen!!! It was those exact verses that the Holy Spirit used to turn on the light of my understanding of the Gospel. PTL!!!
And for your own reasons you won't put a name to this one of the bunch?
WOW! PTL - exactly! I love those verses. What a reminder of what a God we serve and how He protects us and how possessive of us He is. Imagine that - The CREATOR of all!!
We have plenty to shout about, be happy about, give thanks for and praise Jesus for! Thanks for sharing why those verses are special to you, boatbums, it gave me opportunity to meditate on those Scriptures again.
Awww, c'mon...Haven't you ever seen the puzzles where they have the pictures and tell you to pick out what doesn't fit in???
You have an orange, an apple, a strawberry, a cherry and an elephant...Which one doesn't fit???
There are a few Protestants who do ask, but the majority of the Protestants who troll these threads aren't interested in what Catholics actually believe. They have their handy-dandy list of lies about the Church that they endlessly recite telling Catholics what Catholics actually believe. The worst are the failed and ad jure excommunicated Catholics who never had a clue.
That is because Calvinists apparently are incapable of comprehending any doctring that doesn't begin with "sola". Catholics believe that Baptism is necessary for Salvation, but by itself does not save.
But then again some of us are not ashamed of our affiliations.
That don't work either...I sometimes set a cup of coffee on my bible (and spill it)...You won't see anyone setting a cup of coffee on top of a statue of Mary...And you won't see my bible planted in a bath tub...
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.