U.S. Army: M9 Berettas Suck. Glock? M&P? H&K?

thetruthaboutguns.com ^ | 29 Aug 2011 | Robert Ferago

[smokingfrog]

“The M9 is at the end of its lifecycle,” declared Maj. Art Thomas [not shown], small arms branch chief at the Maneuver Center of Excellence at Fort Benning, GA. “It is an old weapon.” Pig pile on Beretta! True story: armytimes.com comes not to praise the Beretta M9. They come to well and truly bury the Maryland-made 9mm handguns. Here’s the bullet point version of why our men in uniform need to ditch the b*tch for something better . . .

• The[M9's] slide-mounted safety. When solders rack the slide to alleviate a jam or stovepipe in the M9, they often inadvertently engage the safety — and won’t realize this until they reacquire and squeeze the trigger.

• The open-slide design, which allow contaminants and dirt into the system.

• The lack of a modular grip, integrated rail and night-sight capabilities.

• The inability to suppress.

• Limited service life — replacement should have a service life of at least 25,000 rounds.

That last one really sticks in the Army’s craw. “Service life is a key issue,” Daryl Easlick told the times. The project officer for close effects (“How was work today honey?”) reveals that the M9 is only required to fire 5,000 rounds. “We are looking for a threshold capability in the magnitude of five times better than that.”

But wait M9 fans! There’s less!

[GladesGuru]

“But women can shoot the M9. They can’t shoot anything with a bigger round.”

With training they most assuredly can - I have had students fire my .44 mag revolvers and like the gun.

Common comment - “Cool gun!”

Recoil, in and of itself, is something easily dealt with, assuming good instruction, careful selection of the gun/grip combo, and proper hearing and eye protection.

One girl turned to me after emptying the cylinder and said, “Real empowerment, right in my hands.” Note “hands”, as I do not allow beginners to try a 310 grain max load with one hand. A reasonable 240 grain round suffices. After all, the target is paper, not 1,500 pounds of mad meat with attitude.

[marktwain]

The final insult for Walther was the adoption of the Beretta 92...a pistol that used the falling block action that the P-38 pioneered!!!!

The reasons and theories for Beretta being adopted are numerous...including a deal made by Uncle Sammie to base missiles in Italy. Plus Beretta undercut the replacement parts costs of the SIG by a few pennies. What is even more amusing is the later M11 adoption. Seems SIG got the last laugh and the Army adopted the SIG 228 (As the M11) as a substitute standard pistol for it’s forces. Seems there was a lot of complaining about the big grips of the M9, and the Beretta was having all kinds of reliability problems with magazines and slide detachment from the frame (hence the saying “you ain’t a Navy SEAL till you’ve tasted Italian steel”).

As to the rest...Glock was dead in the water before they even entered. They didn’t pass the requirement for a seperate manual safety. Steyr GB is a weird gun to start with. It was actual based on a gun made in Morton Grove, IL by Les Rogak called the Rogak P-18 (which was based on a WW2 design). Steyr eventually took over design and production of the gun (after the P-18 flopped badly), but even Austria, where the gun was made, decided on the Glock instead. Ruger has tried to get his guns accepted for military use previously and has failed each time. The Mini-14 is a prime example. He tried to market it worldwide (France tested it) but has not had much success with it. Accuracy and reliability problems plague it. Some police departments have adopted it, but with the advent of dirt cheap M16 rifles released by Uncle Sammie, Ruger Mini 14 is pretty much a “sporting rifle” now. Ruger may have had more than fear of embarassment that kept him from entering the military trials. Shortly aftet it’s introduction, the P-85 had a massive recall of EVERY unit because a broken firing pin caused an AD during decocking. I suspect that would have been the end of the P-85 as far as Uncle Sammie is concerned and would have killed civilian sales too. While the Colt does appear to strongly resemble the Model 28/30 Star, one wonders why Colt would hook up with a gun that has had nothing but problems since it’s introduction.

Then again, Colt made some really dumb marketing moves back in those days Anyone remember the Colt double action semi-autos (Colt Double Eagle?) A real turd in stainless steel. They even had a Rube Goldberg plastic frame gun (the Colt ALL American 2000) that ranks with the Edsel for dismal failures. Surprisingly, it was designed by Eugene Stoner and Reed Knight.

http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/p88/6308-p88-failure-pass-drop-test.html

[Prole]

To qualify in the Army one must wear Kevlar and LBV/plates. When in direct sunlight, these chicks can barely cut a basic score with a Beretta. What’s comical is that you think they could cut it with .45 or higher caliber in even these simple conditions, let alone in combat environments.

[Malone LaVeigh]

IIRC, at the time the Beretta was adopted, there was a push to achieve commonality with our allies. During WWII, we used the .30'06 the Brits used the .303, the French were using the 7.5x57. We had the .45 ACP, the Brits had the.455 Webley. It was a quartermasters nightmare, especially when allied troops operated together.
Following the war, when NATO was in it's heyday, an effort was made to have everyone using the same ammo. Most of our allies had adopted the 9mm by this time. The smaller caliber was also easier for most troops to handle. The Beretta was one of the few platforms at the time which offered a pistol that met the criteria for military use.
To be honest, the 1911 was still in service when I served in the Army. The issue 1911's were so old and worn out by that time that I wondered if throwing one at the enemy wouldn't be more effective than shooting one. I wasn't very impressed with them. Years later, I've changed my opinion. I own 3 1911's and would have more if I could. They are the most inherently accurate pistols I shoot, and there's no question about their stopping power. I doubt that the military will ever go back to them, but there are other pistols chambered for the .45 ACP that would serve well. And the .45ACP is such an American cartridge. I think that commonality in this case could be done away with.

[yarddog]

That brings back a lot of memories. I remember the Rogak and also recall it was made in the city in Illinois which banned handguns. I have never even seen one.

I can remember a lot of people wondered why the Star did so poorly. It seemed a good solid design. I had one and never had the slightest problem with it.

My Father was working at Eglin when they were doing the first round of tests. He used to talk with the guys doing the tests regularly.

[FW190]

"“The M9 is at the end of its lifecycle,” declared Maj. Art Thomas [not shown], small arms branch chief at the Maneuver Center of Excellence at Fort Benning, GA. “It is an old weapon.”

For sure it's an "old weapon!”

The first time I saw one disassembled, I recognized what I was looking at. It's A WW II GERMAN P-38! With a longer slide and a couple of other minor improvements. DOD bought a 70 year old design in a "NEW" envelope. LOL

[smokingfrog]

The issue 1911's were so old and worn out by that time that I wondered if throwing one at the enemy wouldn't be more effective than shooting one. I wasn't very impressed with them.

Yep. I had the same experience. Not very much accuracy from those old worn-out 1911's. It's almost a wonder that anyone could qualify with one of them.

[Mr Rogers]

My preference:

A bit more seriously, the 45 ACP is an outstanding self-defense choice. Less power than a .357, but a bigger diameter hole. Glocks aren't quite my thing, but would probably make a great service weapon.

[SkyDancer]

My two brothers carried a 1911A1 in Iraq. Just before coming down here the family did an outing to the gun show. Dad picked up a new Springfield then bought me the .22 conversion kit for it. My personal gun is a Beretta Tomcat in .32acp loaded with hydra-shocks and Glaser Safeties. Nice purse gun.

[Neidermeyer]

I agree 1000% , the Berettas grip is made for gorillas who came up with such a monster...

9mm is not strong enough ... .40 or .45 will do fine

My Star just keeps on pulling it’s timex impersonation ,, even though it’s the lightweight model 30pk ...

I say a 1911 with an increase in capacity is the ticket.

[crazydad]

I like my M9. Matter of opinion I guess. I had a Rock Island .45 and it kept jamming even when it was new..

[MarkL]

I can't speak for the modern M9, which is based on the modern PT-92/99 series. But I've got an old Taurus PT-99, which was made on Baretta equipment in Brazil. It's the old-style PT-99 with a 1911 style, frame mounted safety. It's been incredibly reliable, and for 3 years I used it for USPSA shooting, putting about 35,000 rounds through it in those 3 years. During those 3 years I only had 2 problems. The first was after loading up some "interesting" rounds with IMI 169gr FMJBT bullets... Which I later learned to be +P+ SMG rounds. After about 9 rounds the weapon refused to cycle. It has broken one of the two locking lugs, jamming the weapon closed. It was easy to clear, but I was impressed with the strength of the gun, even with the open slide. The second problem was during a match where I noticed something had changed, but I couldn't quite put my finger on the problem: After the stage I found that the rear sight had fallen off the gun.

In both cases, Taurus fixed the problems with no questions asked.

Mark

[marktwain]

The issue 1911's were so old and worn out by that time that I wondered if throwing one at the enemy wouldn't be more effective than shooting one. I wasn't very impressed with them. Yep. I had the same experience. Not very much accuracy from those old worn-out 1911's. It's almost a wonder that anyone could qualify with one of them.

I had a significantly different experience. I joined a reserve unit in Wisconsin, an Armor outfit, about 1984. There was a pistol match scheduled at Camp McCoy, so I asked if I could attend. The powers that be said OK, issued me a stock 1911A1 from the armory, and cut me orders to McCoy for the weekend match. This pistol looked as though it had been manufactured about 1946 and had never seen combat or even been carried much.

I shot top score overall in the match (a divisional "leg" match) and everyone wondered where the heck I came from. I had never shot with them before.

After I had told them that I was on the University of Wisconsin Pistol Team for four years, and that there was little difference between shooting a .45 and a .22, they were properly mollified.

What impressed me what how accurate the stock 1911A1 was and how correctly regulated the sights were for issue ammunition. It was right on at 25 yards. (could have been meters, my memory doesn't say).

[yarddog]

I had one of the early model 92 Berettas. It not only had the frame mounted safety, the mag release was near the bottom of the grip.

I had bought some very cheap ammo. It was described as sub machine gun ammo but not over pressure. In other words safe to fire in pistols.

One day my Nephew and I decided to shoot up what was left of it. We brought two guns, a Browning Hi-Power and that Beretta.

Now that Browning had never had any problems at all, no jams, failure to fire or anything else. Unfortunately about every other round of that 9mm, the gun did not fire. It would always fire on the second try. The Beretta never failed a single time.

Nothing really wrong with the Browning as that was not the ammo it was designed for but I did appreciate that the Beretta did fire with it 100%.

[smokingfrog]

The 1911’s we shot in boot camp were pretty long in the tooth. I don’t really know what the 1911’s assigned to individual units were like, since I never carried one. I only remember a few of the higher ranking officers in my unit and machine gun ammo bearers that were issued 1911’s. Probably a few in the mortar platoon too.

[The Pack Knight]

I really love my Glock 21. It's simple and it never fails to function, it's accurate, recoil is pleasant, and it holds 13 rounds of .45 ACP.

Ditto. Can't imagine another sidearm I'd trust my life to before my Glock 21.

[The Pack Knight]

This is seriously long overdue. Ditch the Beretta AND the 9mm.

If I was in a situation where I actually had to use a sidearm in combat, I think I’d rather not do it with a failure-prone pistol with no stopping power.

[The Pack Knight]

I think the issue ammo was a big part of the problem in those days.

[Still Thinking]

Uh, gee, not to be too radical here, but how about a 1911 in, oh I don’t know....45 ACP! Might that sidearm be serviceable for the military? [facepalm]

[Billthedrill]

...but how about a 1911 in, oh I don’t know....45 ACP!

That's crazy talk.