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U.S. Army: M9 Berettas Suck. Glock? M&P? H&K?
thetruthaboutguns.com ^ | 29 Aug 2011 | Robert Ferago

Posted on 09/03/2011 12:42:43 PM PDT by smokingfrog

“The M9 is at the end of its lifecycle,” declared Maj. Art Thomas [not shown], small arms branch chief at the Maneuver Center of Excellence at Fort Benning, GA. “It is an old weapon.” Pig pile on Beretta! True story: armytimes.com comes not to praise the Beretta M9. They come to well and truly bury the Maryland-made 9mm handguns. Here’s the bullet point version of why our men in uniform need to ditch the b*tch for something better . . .

• The[M9's] slide-mounted safety. When solders rack the slide to alleviate a jam or stovepipe in the M9, they often inadvertently engage the safety — and won’t realize this until they reacquire and squeeze the trigger.

• The open-slide design, which allow contaminants and dirt into the system.

• The lack of a modular grip, integrated rail and night-sight capabilities.

• The inability to suppress.

• Limited service life — replacement should have a service life of at least 25,000 rounds.

That last one really sticks in the Army’s craw. “Service life is a key issue,” Daryl Easlick told the times. The project officer for close effects (“How was work today honey?”) reveals that the M9 is only required to fire 5,000 rounds. “We are looking for a threshold capability in the magnitude of five times better than that.”

But wait M9 fans! There’s less!

(Excerpt) Read more at thetruthaboutguns.com ...


TOPICS: Chit/Chat; Government; Military/Veterans
KEYWORDS: banglist
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To: smokingfrog

I like my M9. Matter of opinion I guess. I had a Rock Island .45 and it kept jamming even when it was new..


51 posted on 09/03/2011 4:24:17 PM PDT by crazydad
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To: smokingfrog
I can't speak for the modern M9, which is based on the modern PT-92/99 series. But I've got an old Taurus PT-99, which was made on Baretta equipment in Brazil. It's the old-style PT-99 with a 1911 style, frame mounted safety. It's been incredibly reliable, and for 3 years I used it for USPSA shooting, putting about 35,000 rounds through it in those 3 years. During those 3 years I only had 2 problems. The first was after loading up some "interesting" rounds with IMI 169gr FMJBT bullets... Which I later learned to be +P+ SMG rounds. After about 9 rounds the weapon refused to cycle. It has broken one of the two locking lugs, jamming the weapon closed. It was easy to clear, but I was impressed with the strength of the gun, even with the open slide. The second problem was during a match where I noticed something had changed, but I couldn't quite put my finger on the problem: After the stage I found that the rear sight had fallen off the gun.

In both cases, Taurus fixed the problems with no questions asked.

Mark

52 posted on 09/03/2011 4:39:02 PM PDT by MarkL (Do I really look like a guy with a plan?)
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To: smokingfrog; All
The issue 1911's were so old and worn out by that time that I wondered if throwing one at the enemy wouldn't be more effective than shooting one. I wasn't very impressed with them. Yep. I had the same experience. Not very much accuracy from those old worn-out 1911's. It's almost a wonder that anyone could qualify with one of them.

I had a significantly different experience. I joined a reserve unit in Wisconsin, an Armor outfit, about 1984. There was a pistol match scheduled at Camp McCoy, so I asked if I could attend. The powers that be said OK, issued me a stock 1911A1 from the armory, and cut me orders to McCoy for the weekend match. This pistol looked as though it had been manufactured about 1946 and had never seen combat or even been carried much.

I shot top score overall in the match (a divisional "leg" match) and everyone wondered where the heck I came from. I had never shot with them before.

After I had told them that I was on the University of Wisconsin Pistol Team for four years, and that there was little difference between shooting a .45 and a .22, they were properly mollified.

What impressed me what how accurate the stock 1911A1 was and how correctly regulated the sights were for issue ammunition. It was right on at 25 yards. (could have been meters, my memory doesn't say).

53 posted on 09/03/2011 4:53:03 PM PDT by marktwain (In an age of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.)
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To: MarkL

I had one of the early model 92 Berettas. It not only had the frame mounted safety, the mag release was near the bottom of the grip.

I had bought some very cheap ammo. It was described as sub machine gun ammo but not over pressure. In other words safe to fire in pistols.

One day my Nephew and I decided to shoot up what was left of it. We brought two guns, a Browning Hi-Power and that Beretta.

Now that Browning had never had any problems at all, no jams, failure to fire or anything else. Unfortunately about every other round of that 9mm, the gun did not fire. It would always fire on the second try. The Beretta never failed a single time.

Nothing really wrong with the Browning as that was not the ammo it was designed for but I did appreciate that the Beretta did fire with it 100%.


54 posted on 09/03/2011 4:58:33 PM PDT by yarddog
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To: marktwain

The 1911’s we shot in boot camp were pretty long in the tooth. I don’t really know what the 1911’s assigned to individual units were like, since I never carried one. I only remember a few of the higher ranking officers in my unit and machine gun ammo bearers that were issued 1911’s. Probably a few in the mortar platoon too.


55 posted on 09/03/2011 5:00:55 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open ( <o> ---)
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To: RC one
I really love my Glock 21. It's simple and it never fails to function, it's accurate, recoil is pleasant, and it holds 13 rounds of .45 ACP.

Ditto. Can't imagine another sidearm I'd trust my life to before my Glock 21.
56 posted on 09/03/2011 5:06:48 PM PDT by The Pack Knight (Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Weep, and the world laughs at you.)
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To: smokingfrog

This is seriously long overdue. Ditch the Beretta AND the 9mm.

If I was in a situation where I actually had to use a sidearm in combat, I think I’d rather not do it with a failure-prone pistol with no stopping power.


57 posted on 09/03/2011 5:08:47 PM PDT by The Pack Knight (Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Weep, and the world laughs at you.)
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To: smokingfrog

I think the issue ammo was a big part of the problem in those days.


58 posted on 09/03/2011 5:16:46 PM PDT by The Pack Knight (Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Weep, and the world laughs at you.)
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To: smokingfrog

Uh, gee, not to be too radical here, but how about a 1911 in, oh I don’t know....45 ACP! Might that sidearm be serviceable for the military? [facepalm]


59 posted on 09/03/2011 5:25:55 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: Still Thinking
...but how about a 1911 in, oh I don’t know....45 ACP!

That's crazy talk.

60 posted on 09/03/2011 5:29:22 PM PDT by Billthedrill
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To: The Pack Knight
I think the issue ammo was a big part of the problem in those days.

I never considered that. Produced by the lowest bidder. Plus, who knows how old some of that stuff was? We know McNamara tried to save a few bucks by using dirty ball powder to manufacture ammunition for the M16 back during the Vietnam era.

61 posted on 09/03/2011 5:35:08 PM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open ( <o> ---)
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To: taxcontrol

I had considered getting the MP5 rechambered to 9x21 a few years back.Is the 9x23 the same round that Mauser chambered some of the broomhandle pistols for when they filled some export orders before WW1?


62 posted on 09/03/2011 5:44:11 PM PDT by Farmer Dean (stop worrying about what they want to do to you,start thinking about what you want to do to them)
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To: yarddog

I have a old 92fs and it is a great shooter. Loaded with Hydra-shocks and it should bring down anyone.
The military cannot issue hollowpoints or high power 9 MM rounds.
I also have a Colt Commander that is a sweet pistol, but I like the 15 rounds for the 92.
Glocks may be good{I wasnt really impressed with the one I fired}but it didnt feel right.
SIG is good but a little pricey. But the one thing the Germans know about is making firearms.


63 posted on 09/03/2011 5:45:30 PM PDT by Yorlik803 (better to die on your feet than live on your knees.)
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To: yarddog

I have a 1911A1 that I’ve put 60,000 rounds through.No jams,and never had any part break.I did replace the 50 year old recoil spring because I though it was getting a little weak,but the old spring was still working OK.


64 posted on 09/03/2011 5:49:34 PM PDT by Farmer Dean (stop worrying about what they want to do to you,start thinking about what you want to do to them)
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To: smokingfrog

This isn’t from personal experience, mind you - my time was in the late 90s when the Army had long since gone to the M9.

However, from talking to my uncle and other guys who served in the 70s and early 80s, I always heard that the ammo was old, cheap, and beat up. My uncle used to say shots were going all over the place like out of a smooth bore musket. I’m no gunsmith, but I suspect that means the barrels were in need of replacement in addition to the need for higher-quality cartridges.

As an aside, I actually liked shooting the M9. It was easy to handle, had a comfortable trigger pull, and I thought the sights were ok. My problems with it were reliability, durability, the safety, and the lethality of the 9mm - all stuff I’d rather not worry about if I’m in such dire straits that I’m using a sidearm in combat.


65 posted on 09/03/2011 6:55:00 PM PDT by The Pack Knight (Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Weep, and the world laughs at you.)
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To: smokingfrog

I really love my Springfield Armory XDm .45...14 rounds as opposed to 8 in the 1911’s.


66 posted on 09/03/2011 7:20:02 PM PDT by mozarky2 (Ya never stand so tall as when ya stoop to stomp a statist!)
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To: Steel Wolf

USAF won’t let pilots carry personal side arm even if they supply own ammo. True? Why?

It would seem that when it is your own life on the line what you carry should be your decision.


67 posted on 09/03/2011 9:30:08 PM PDT by Sequoyah101 (Half the people are below average.)
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To: yarddog
They fixed the problem and I suspect Glocks are now as reliable as any.

You're right. There were a few generations of Glock magazines. The later ones with the full metal lining are superior, and solved those early problems. There were feeding issues, but also issues with the failure to drop a loaded magazine. Before the metal lining, they would bulge and seize in the grip.
68 posted on 09/04/2011 12:35:17 AM PDT by andyk (Income != Wealth)
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To: mozarky2

There are double stack 1911’s with similar capacity


69 posted on 09/04/2011 6:42:22 AM PDT by Mount Athos (A Giant luxury mega-mansion for Gore, a Government Green EcoShack made of poo for you)
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; wku man; SLB; ...
Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!
70 posted on 09/05/2011 5:14:21 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: thefactor

ping...


71 posted on 09/05/2011 6:45:50 AM PDT by Pharmboy (What always made the state a hell has been that man tried to make it heaven-Hoelderlin)
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To: RC one

+1

I just wish I could find a reliable extended mag like using a G18 mag in a G17 or G19.


72 posted on 09/05/2011 6:51:17 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: Domalais
I love my M92FS and it is suppressed with an SWR Trident 9 designed for the H&K MP5. Awesome combo. But I can see how the safety setup could be a drag in combat. I think the US Armed forces should issue the H&K45. The weak 9mm is just not the right medicine for frequent house to house confrontations. Such is the face of terrorism.
73 posted on 09/05/2011 7:39:33 AM PDT by ExSoldier ("Life without God is like an unsharpened pencil: It has no point.")
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To: Yossarian

>>> “Any opinions on the Beretta PX4 Storms, either the .40 or 9mm, now that they’ve been out for a while?”

My fullsize .40 came used from an FFL. I cannot afford to shoot as often as I wish (then again, who can?), but so far it’s performed at 100% with a variety of ammo. The only oddity was the one time the slide didn’t lock back on empty, and I blame that on the original regular-capacity magazine that was in it at the time.

I liked it enough to get the matching CX4. Recoil on that is nothing to the shoulder, but I need more range time to train out of flinching at the snappy (to me) response.

I familiarization-fired both the 1911 and the Beretta 9mm at separate occasions in the military. So brief waere the encounters that I can hardly recall my impressions.

While I really like my P-and-CX4 pairing, I wish I had known to look into the Beretta 96 combined with the matching-magazine KelTec Sub2000 in .40 cal. While not a slander on the CX4’s performance, the KelTec carbine is cheaper and folds in half. Coolness! Their guns are fugly, but I admire KelTec’s innovative designs.

Thanks for the opportunity to comment. The PX4 is the one that goes on every shoot with me & is kept handy by the door.


74 posted on 09/05/2011 7:48:20 AM PDT by Titan Magroyne (What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.)
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To: Mr Rogers

My choice! lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsSA_kCt5lg


75 posted on 09/05/2011 7:52:23 AM PDT by US_MilitaryRules (Where is our military?)
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To: Domalais
You're way off track. Women HATE the M9 due to its size.

Freakin'-A correct! That huge magazine for those 15 rounds is also compromised by the looooonng trigger pull, which is supposed to enhance safety. Anybody remember the scene from Black Hawk Down where the Delta operator was chewed out by the Ranger Captain for having a "hot" weapon inside the cantonment area? The Delta guy showed his trigger finger and said This is my safety, sir! Well that is spot on correct. Ladies with smaller hands have to sometimes shift their grip on the M9 to get enough strength in the trigger finger to pull the trigger. What pray tell happens when one shifts his grip on the weapon in this fashion? If you answered the point of impact also shifts you're sadly correct.

When I first met the gal who became my wife exactly 23 years ago last month, our first date was to church and the second date was to the range. She had already handled firearms in her past (being the daughter of a combat decorated WWII USMC Colonel) so I broke her in on my customized 1911 Remington Rand, affectionately known as Betsy. She did very well but waited wisely until the nuptials were over before declaring my beloved Betsy, HERS. To keep the peace I had to immediately buy her a 1911 45 Combat Commander and it's been wedded bliss ever since.

76 posted on 09/05/2011 8:07:34 AM PDT by ExSoldier ("Life without God is like an unsharpened pencil: It has no point.")
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To: Pharmboy

Yeah, the open slide is just weird. I heard just yesterday that the Army is getting rid of the M9. But with the speed the Army goes, I’m not sure I’ll use anything else before I retire.


77 posted on 09/05/2011 8:09:34 AM PDT by thefactor (yes, as a matter of fact, i DID only read the excerpt)
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To: US_MilitaryRules

Fantastic!


78 posted on 09/05/2011 8:40:38 AM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: ExSoldier; Domalais
I'm a guy, but I have small hands. Great for working on Japanese cars, not so great for a lot of handguns. With the M9, I just had to let my thumb take the recoil - which is not a good way to shoot.

OTOH, with my Ruger Alaskan, a switch to the GP100 compact grips has allowed me to fire 50 rounds one-handed from a 44 Mag snubbie & do just fine.


79 posted on 09/05/2011 8:49:52 AM PDT by Mr Rogers ("they found themselves made strangers in their own country")
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To: smokingfrog

Why not stick with the tried-and-true 1911?


80 posted on 09/05/2011 8:52:46 AM PDT by wastedyears (Of course you realize, this means war.)
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To: SkyDancer

Beautiful weapon, but I think they want more mag capacity and fewer parts. The Glock would fit that easily.


81 posted on 09/05/2011 10:18:52 AM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (Islam is the religion of Satan and Mohammed was his minion.)
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To: Mr Rogers

Nice.

We don’t be messin’ around in Mr Roger’s neighborhood.


82 posted on 09/05/2011 11:26:05 AM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open ( <o> ---)
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To: 2banana
But women can shoot the M9. They can't shoot anything with a bigger round.

Someone will have to tell my CHL instructor. You tell her, I'm afraid of her... Actually she's a nice lady, distracting, but nice. And she has a big scary looking former Marine husband. He looks scary, she is scary. I think she carries a .40, but I know she shoots a .45 sometimes.

83 posted on 09/05/2011 2:31:06 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: Domalais
Women HATE the M9 due to its size

And while I'm a pretty big guy, I agree with them. It's way to big for what it is.

84 posted on 09/05/2011 2:34:07 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: Sequoyah101
USAF won’t let pilots carry personal side arm even if they supply own ammo. True? Why?

Probably, the military is not really gun friendly and is very big on uniformity of equipment. There are some good reasons for that. What happens when the guy runs out of his personal stash of ammo? Have "mamma" send some more from home?

However wasn't always so, or at least the powers that were may have been a little more willing to look the other way in a less PC environment than today's military has. My reserve CO carried a .44 magnum as an AF intelligence officer in Southeast Asia. (In those days the issue sidearm for AF pilots and rear area types was a .38 revolver) I've read that one guy had his own .444 Marlin lever action that he used as a "bunker buster".

85 posted on 09/05/2011 2:52:23 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: The Pack Knight

You need to try the XD .45 on for size...then you’ll have two to choose from. ;o)


86 posted on 09/05/2011 3:36:37 PM PDT by papertyger
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To: smokingfrog

The M9 is a piece of crap IMHO. I was told the competition for the new Service sidearm came down to the Sig P226 and the M9. The Army chose the Beretta because it is cheaper. As most of us know, the Sig is far superior. The Army should have kept the 1911 and told the NATO weenies to pound sand.


87 posted on 09/05/2011 8:59:35 PM PDT by wjcsux ("In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." - George Orwell)
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To: El Gato

As an emergency protection sidearm I shouldn’t think a pilot would need a whole heck of a lot of ammo. If he used it I would also think he would have some time to get some more or have a back-up issued weapon.

You can only carry so much in the cockpit and I would think if you could be responsible enough to fly an airplane you would be responsible enough to carry enough ammo.

500 rounds should be enough for casual and emergency use for just about anyone.


88 posted on 09/06/2011 12:19:15 AM PDT by Sequoyah101 (Half the people are below average.)
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To: smokingfrog

I never liked the 9mm because it lacked the stopping power needed when fighting someone in battle gear. For me, a double stack 45 was a better choice. I have large hands and have no problem with the grip. It wouldn’t work for most females, though.


89 posted on 09/06/2011 5:43:13 AM PDT by mbynack (Retired USAF SMSgt)
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To: wjcsux

90 posted on 09/06/2011 6:56:14 AM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open ( <o> ---)
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To: El Gato

Our pilots were allowed to carry a personal side arm during Desert Storm. The base didn’t have enough M-9s to issue to the pilots. I don’t know if they had limits on caliber.


91 posted on 09/06/2011 8:58:39 AM PDT by mbynack (Retired USAF SMSgt)
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To: Domalais
I really dislike my M9.

Doesn't fit the hands of most of the female troops, either, which was supposed to be one of its big advantage features over the old M1911A1 .45.

My fiancee was considering getting herseld a M92 civilian version after she left the USAF, and then she tried my old East German PM Makarov.

Now I'm looking for a new Makarov.

92 posted on 09/07/2011 1:44:33 PM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: FlyingEagle
Sig 229 is a masterpiece.

No, the SIG 210 is a masterpiece. The SIG 228 is certainly acceptable, even excellent.

But the SIG 210 is an absolute masterpiece.


93 posted on 09/07/2011 1:48:25 PM PDT by archy (I'd give my right arm to be ambidextrous!)
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To: archy

You sure know more about Sig than I do. I looked it up - the mid-20th century original Swiss pieces fetch huge prices from collectors. It is interesting geometry too, a lot like the older 1911s. At 900 grams, that is like the Suburban of pistols. Must be nice.


94 posted on 09/07/2011 4:28:26 PM PDT by FlyingEagle
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To: grobdriver

“Time to return to the 1911.”

The Marines have been remanufacturing their old 1911s as SOC pistols......They are extremely popular with the guys that have their boots on the ground......

Return to???? We never should have left!


95 posted on 09/07/2011 4:40:11 PM PDT by Forty-Niner (Ursus Arctos Horribilis......got my GRRRRR on!)
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To: smokingfrog

How ‘bout a .40 or .45 version of Browning High Power?

It would be enough gun, and sturdy enough enough to last forever.


96 posted on 09/07/2011 4:51:46 PM PDT by Little Ray (FOR the best Conservative in the Primary; AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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