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Prostitutes And Porn: 1st Amend. Protects Porn But Not Prostitutes? Absurd CA Supreme Court
STEVELACKNER.COM ^ | November 24, 2011 | Steven W. Lackner

Posted on 11/24/2011 11:07:08 PM PST by stevelackner

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To: muir_redwoods
I am not binding anyone to anything.

I am merely paraphrasing the Word of the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.

It's not religion, it is faith, the belief in that which is unseen.

Religion is futile.

51 posted on 11/25/2011 7:29:23 AM PST by exnavy (May the Lord bless and keep our troops.)
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To: nathanbedford
Your post #49 is outstanding. Very well said.

But it does surprise me to hear such well expressed thoughts coming from someone who uses the image and name of a slave dealer and Klan leader.

No insult intended - I am interested in how you would reconcile Forrest and human freedom.

52 posted on 11/25/2011 7:52:19 AM PST by Notary Sojac (Gingrich/Cain 2012)
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To: gman992
...there’s tons of incest and “begeting” in the Bible...

People behaving badly, as it was in the beginning, is now, and shall always be.

53 posted on 11/25/2011 8:09:42 AM PST by JimRed (Excising a cancer before it kills us waters the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW AND FOREVER!)
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To: Notary Sojac
Your inquiry is addressed at least tangentially if not directly on my about page.

Thank you for your kind comments.


54 posted on 11/25/2011 8:10:30 AM PST by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: nathanbedford
"If you want to impose the criminal law on someone you have the burden of justifying it."

And since imposing criminal sanctions based on religious values in this (and other) regard has been constitutional since the beginning, that's all the reason I need. If a majority of the people support a criminal law based purely on ethical reasons with a religious foundation then that is their right in a democratic republic, baby. Who are you to say your cost/benifit empirical analysis is somehow a more authoritative or moral basis for criminal law than a motivation based on divine revelation from God? If you can bring enough people to your way of thinking so they vote in different laws, go for it. But so far your position has consistently been rejected over a thousand years over a broad spectrum of cultures. And I will continue to support laws consistent with my theistic presuppositions.

55 posted on 11/25/2011 9:54:59 AM PST by circlecity
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To: circlecity

Here’s a secular belief; water is wet. That is not an hypothesis, it’s a testable reality, unlike any religion. See, it’s not a mantra.


56 posted on 11/25/2011 10:33:31 AM PST by muir_redwoods (No wonder this administration favors abortion; everything they have done is an abortion)
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To: stevelackner

Why is it legal to promote a film of two men having sex but against the law to criticize them for doing it.


57 posted on 11/25/2011 10:37:38 AM PST by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: nathanbedford
Poof

I believe you used this (somewhat) phonetically, but it's Puff, derived from the eponymous boardgame (often played in brothels back in the day), an early form of Backgammon.

(Just in case you ever need to ask for directions...kidding!)

58 posted on 11/25/2011 12:17:27 PM PST by Moltke (Always retaliate first.)
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To: PieterCasparzen
Morris County,New Jersey Court Records. December 22,1762. The King vs.JOHANNAH AYRES charged with fornication. She plead guilty. 1,5 fine and 30 stripes on her bare back on 27th day of December 1762.

Bare back, huh? And I'll bet the good judges sold tickets to the flogging, too. If someone had a camcorder back in the day, there would have been videos for sale all over the place.

59 posted on 11/25/2011 1:07:53 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: circlecity
But so far your position has consistently been rejected(emphasis supplied)

Really?

Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003)

60 posted on 11/25/2011 1:14:52 PM PST by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: Moltke
I have confirmed your correction with my crack in-house Dolmetcher staff (15 years old-don't ask me how he knows).

Thanks for the correction.


61 posted on 11/25/2011 1:29:25 PM PST by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: Moltke
I know the way, one can hardly miss it. As one crosses the bridge to the county seat, Rosenheim, there is a building with a giant red heart on the wall with the proprietor's name next to it who, of course, has to be named, "ASS."


62 posted on 11/25/2011 1:33:00 PM PST by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: nathanbedford
How about a judicial system and a political system where our judges and politicians find themselves hypocrites for outlawing the prostitutes that they frequent?

The hypocrite argument.

Because a judge or a politician commits a criminal act that does not invalidate the idea of the act being criminalized. In order for such a statement to be a valid argument, it would have to hold true for ALL crimes. Now, certainly a judge or politician may commit the crime of stealing or theft. But when a judge or politician does that, it does not give any justification for decriminalizing stealing or theft. The fact that individuals in politics, law enforcement or the judiciary commit crimes does not change the fact that the crimes are crimes. It simply means that sometimes these people commit crimes like every other segment of the population.

How about the innocent folks with nothing to do with prostitutes but who find themselves the victims of street crime because the neighborhood deteriorates?

"It's the criminalization that ruins the neighborhood, not the crime"

The neighborhood does not deteriorate because criminals are arrested and prosecuted; again, that is not the case with traffic tickets, robbery, rape or murder. If this were the case, we could stop enforcing all laws and crime would cease to exist. A little John Lennon and a bong and this idea starts to seem more and more practical.

What you don't mention is the effects of people choosing to have sex outside of marriage.

It fosters a lack of a unique respect and love for spouses. "Open" or adulterous relationships do not foster effective families. Sex without family commitment works to the detriment of families.

Prostitutes have lost self respect, they have "sold out". Customers say it is either out of desperation or "smart business" on the part of the prostitute; the prostitute will most often say it is "smart business" as that rationalizes things in her mind and intrigues, provides rationalizaton for and even excites the customer. But neither justifies the selling of one's body. If that is the highest value a woman can earn and she desires the earning enough to trade the intimate parts of her body, this proves only that to herself she is worth nothing more than as a sex object, which is humiliation. She will tell herself that she is an "artist", a "professional", like the naive young who fancy themselves great poets or artists. But in the end, the customer is humoring her and wants only the acts, even though he feels friendly towards or sorry for her. After all, is he to criticize her ?

A husband that will cherish his wife and keep himself for her would find her value as a woman worth infinitely more than the price of her sex to a stranger; yet she insults an unknown future potential husband by selling what he would cherish for a mere pittance though it seems like a high price to her at the time. After all, what is the redeeming nature of the work ? A few moments of pleasure ? All of that is vanity, it's all for naught in the end.

Rampant sex outside of marriage, whether prostitution or not, in and of itself causes societal decay, as the participants prioritize sex over concern for the family. The breakdown of families is what causes crimes of all types to increase in a neighborhood.

Our eyes have to be opened and our pride humbled to admit that something we do ourselves is nothing more than dirty deeds done dirt cheap.
63 posted on 11/25/2011 1:50:57 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves.)
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To: Larry Lucido
Bare back, huh? And I'll bet the good judges sold tickets to the flogging, too. If someone had a camcorder back in the day, there would have been videos for sale all over the place.

I hope that you will give some serious thought to that post.
64 posted on 11/25/2011 2:00:28 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves.)
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To: nathanbedford
You are to be commended for having a son who knows all about medieval dice/board games! No wonder Bavarian schools are still ranked at or close to the top in Germany.

Should your business ever take you to Stuttgart, there's just such a dicing establishment right across a small alley from the city-center Rathaus.

Honi soit qui mal y pense...

Drei-Farben-Haus

65 posted on 11/25/2011 2:28:14 PM PST by Moltke (Always retaliate first.)
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To: PieterCasparzen

I did give it serious thought. The judge is obviously a closet pervert who chose to live out his S&M fantasy under the cloak of a judicial sentence.


66 posted on 11/25/2011 4:02:34 PM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: Larry Lucido; All

No, floggings were normally applied this way otherwise the clothing becomes all smushed up in the wounds in a general mess.

20th century perverted thinking would think of a flogging in a sexual way, 18th century judicial thinking thought of it only as a punishement for various crimes.

Everything in the world is not about sex.


67 posted on 11/25/2011 7:35:59 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves.)
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To: muir_redwoods
"Here’s a secular belief; water is wet"

That's not a testible reality it a man made definition given that wet is defined at the presentce of water. A tautology is the best you can do as an example of a secular reality? BWahahahahaha.

68 posted on 11/26/2011 3:11:55 AM PST by circlecity
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To: nathanbedford
"Lawrence v. Texas, 539 U.S. 558 (2003)"

That has nothing to do with prostitution. My use of the phrase "in this regard" meant I was dealing with the prostitution issue. Clearly, no law, whatever the motivation in passing it - religious or secular, can violate the bill of rights.

69 posted on 11/26/2011 3:17:13 AM PST by circlecity
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To: circlecity

Here’s a secular belief, spring follows winter. Try again


70 posted on 11/26/2011 5:28:47 AM PST by muir_redwoods (No wonder this administration favors abortion; everything they have done is an abortion)
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To: muir_redwoods; circlecity
Since any religion and, in fact, all religions are merely hypotheses, you are welcome to believe in one absolutely but you are not free to bind others to the rules or beliefs of a religion."

Not free to bind others?! You write in the very same sentence as one who still is suffering from some sort of spiritual or religious hangover yourself. Your strictures and your metaphysical constructs about freedom itself constitute a gigantic leap of irrational faith that cannot be justified or accounted for on your own terms. If on your assumptions cause and effect, chance and/or necessity of brute physical forces are all there is then there is no rational basis for any notion of "freedom" in the first place, much less any foundation for the ethical or noetic prescriptions you just propounded above. When matter in motion is all you've got then your notions of freedom and your proscriptions about what ought or ought not be bound are self-vitiating and absurd,

Cordially,

71 posted on 11/26/2011 8:30:12 AM PST by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: Diamond

Based on what you got out of my comment you ought to dig in your back yard for platinum. My assertion that religions are all hypotheses still is unchallenged. If you’d like to address that issue, I’d be happy to participate. If you feel one or more religions are theories, perhaps you’d like to present the testable evidence. If you feel any religion is a fact, we’re done.


72 posted on 11/26/2011 2:55:45 PM PST by muir_redwoods (No wonder this administration favors abortion; everything they have done is an abortion)
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To: muir_redwoods; circlecity
While I think your assertion that all religions are hypotheses constitutes a fundamental category error, I wasn't addressing that issue per se, I was addressing your prescriptive claims concerning freedom, noting that your claims regarding freedom have no foundation in, and do not logically follow from your own presuppositions.

Cordially,

73 posted on 11/26/2011 4:17:22 PM PST by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: Diamond

Many words have multiple connotations. “ Free” is one of them. I asserted that no one is “ free” to impose their beliefs on another and in that sense the word” free” means permitted or allowed. If you want to argue the converse, i.e. that someone is free to impose their religious beliefs on another, have at; I’ll enjoy the show.


74 posted on 11/26/2011 5:59:19 PM PST by muir_redwoods (No wonder this administration favors abortion; everything they have done is an abortion)
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To: muir_redwoods
I asserted that no one is “ free” to impose their beliefs on another and in that sense the word” free” means permitted or allowed.

And since you are the one who made the assertion, the burden is on you to prove it. By prove, I mean showing the foundation of your claim that no one is free to impose their beliefs on another (free in the sense of permitted or allowed) and demonstrating how your claim logically derives from your assumed premise.

Cordially,

75 posted on 11/27/2011 5:10:46 AM PST by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: Diamond

The foundation of my claim is in the US constitution and the various stare statutes derivative thereof wherein it is plain that people cannot impose their religious beliefs on others. The same or similar laws can be found in most western countries. Should you choose to side with the islamic world on this question, you will find support for the converse of my assertion.


76 posted on 11/27/2011 5:53:47 AM PST by muir_redwoods (No wonder this administration favors abortion; everything they have done is an abortion)
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To: muir_redwoods
Sorry to take so long to get back to you. I have been swamped with work.(

The foundation of my claim is in the US constitution and the various stare statutes derivative thereof wherein it is plain that people cannot impose their religious beliefs on others.

Your original premise was philosophical, not legal. You said, Since any religion and, in fact, all religions are merely hypotheses.... So I asked what the philosophical basis of the your claim is that one is not free to bind others to the rules or beliefs of a religion. Your conclusion is a legal conclusion, but how you get from your premise to the your conclusion is the interesting part.

If you are saying that the original foundation of State laws and of the Constitution was that any religion and, in fact, all religions are merely hypotheses, then I think that you will find little or no historical evidence to support that proposition.

Cordially,

77 posted on 12/01/2011 5:35:20 AM PST by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: Diamond
Words are a bit like power tools; wise people use them to good effect, foolish people play with them. You can try to make anything you want out of casual conversation but the end result is this. Under the law, in accord with rational behavior, or simply out of common sense, religions are hypotheses and no one is free to inflict the tenets of any faith upon another.

If that's puzzling or confusing for you or if an innate preference for sophistry provokes you to continue to play with words, please find another playmate, it's been awhile since I've found anything of value in your end of the conversation. Thanks

78 posted on 12/01/2011 6:13:45 AM PST by muir_redwoods (No wonder this administration favors abortion; everything they have done is an abortion)
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To: muir_redwoods
Under the law, in accord with rational behavior, or simply out of common sense, religions are hypotheses and no one is free to inflict the tenets of any faith upon another.

Not that I really expect you to find anything of value in it, I nevertheless offer the following evidence as historical/legal rebuttal to your claim that no one is free to inflict the tenets of any faith upon another because "religions are hypotheses" - from a source that cannot simply be dismissed as foolish, irrational or devoid of common sense. Historically speaking, the foundation of the belief that no one is free to inflict the tenets of any faith upon another is actually religious or trancendent in nature, not secular:

Joseph Story, Commentaries on the Constitution 3:§§ 1865--73 1833

§ 1865. How far any government has a right to interfere in matters touching religion, has been a subject much discussed by writers upon public and political law. The right and the duty of the interference of government, in matters of religion, have been maintained by many distinguished authors, as well those, who were the warmest advocates of free government, as those, who were attached to governments of a more arbitrary character. Indeed, the right of a society or government to interfere in matters of religion will hardly be contested by any persons, who believe that piety, religion, and morality are intimately connected with the well being of the state, and indispensable to the administration of civil justice. The promulgation of the great doctrines of religion, the being, and attributes, and providence of one Almighty God; the responsibility to him for all our actions, founded upon moral freedom and accountability; a future state of rewards and punishments; the cultivation of all the personal, social, and benevolent virtues;--these never can be a matter of indifference in any well ordered community. It is, indeed, difficult to conceive, how any civilized society can well exist without them. And at all events, it is impossible for those, who believe in the truth of Christianity, as a divine revelation, to doubt, that it is the especial duty of government to foster, and encourage it among all the citizens and subjects. This is a point wholly distinct from that of the right of private judgment in matters of religion, and of the freedom of public worship according to the dictates of one's conscience.

____________________________

§ 1868. Probably at the time of the adoption of the constitution, and of the amendment to it, now under consideration, the general, if not the universal, sentiment in America was, that Christianity ought to receive encouragement from the state, so far as was not incompatible with the private rights of conscience, and the freedom of religious worship. An attempt to level all religions, and to make it a matter of state policy to hold all in utter indifference, would have created universal disapprobation, if not universal indignation.

1869. It yet remains a problem to be solved in human affairs, whether any free government can be permanent, where the public worship of God, and the support of religion, constitute no part of the policy or duty of the state in any assignable shape. The future experience of Christendom, and chiefly of the American states, must settle this problem, as yet new in the history of the world, abundant, as it has been, in experiments in the theory of government.

§ 1870. But the duty of supporting religion, and especially the Christian religion, is very different from the right to force the consciences of other men, or to punish them for worshipping God in the manner, which, they believe, their accountability to him requires. It has been truly said, that "religion, or the duty we owe to our Creator, and the manner of discharging it, can be dictated only by reason and conviction, not by force or violence." Mr. Locke himself, who did not doubt the right of government to interfere in matters of religion, and especially to encourage Christianity, at the same time has expressed his opinion of the right of private judgment, and liberty of conscience, in a manner becoming his character, as a sincere friend of civil and religious liberty. "No man, or society of men," says he, "have any authority to impose their opinions or interpretations on any other, the meanest Christian; since, in matters of religion, every man must know, and believe, and give an account for himself." The rights of conscience are, indeed, beyond the just reach of any human power. They are given by God, and cannot be encroached upon by human authority, without a criminal disobedience of the precepts of natural, as well as of revealed religion.

[emphasis mine]

The Founders' Constitution
Volume 5, Amendment I (Religion), Document 69
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/amendI_religions69.html
The University of Chicago Press

Story, Joseph. Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States. 3 vols. Boston, 1833.

© 1987 by The University of Chicago
All rights reserved. Published 2000
http://press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/

Cordially,

79 posted on 12/02/2011 6:28:18 AM PST by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: Diamond

Do you posit, or is it your position that secular law in force in this country or any western country specifically allows one to force another to accept the tenets of any faith, religion or superstition (a distinction without a difference)? If that is not your position, we agree and can stop wasting bandwidth on an undergraduate-style philosophical discussion. Deconstruction of words is a clear waste of time.


80 posted on 12/02/2011 7:36:08 AM PST by muir_redwoods (No wonder this administration favors abortion; everything they have done is an abortion)
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To: muir_redwoods
Do you posit, or is it your position that secular law in force in this country or any western country specifically allows one to force another to accept the tenets of any faith, religion or superstition (a distinction without a difference)?

Before the referee blows the whistle, I hope it is clear from my last post that such is not my position, including of course your 'distinction without a difference'.

AWIAI, since this is a Conservative website*, to imply that the freedoms with which this Nation has been blessed and which are presently being stolen from us are the result of superstition is a demeaning absurdity reminiscent of Obama and his ilk.

Maybe you are not of Obama ilk, but when the foundation is being continually undermined the whole structure will eventually collapse.

_______________________

* "As a conservative site, Free Republic is pro-God, pro-life, pro-family, pro-Constitution, pro-Bill of Rights, pro-gun, pro-limited government, pro-private property rights, pro-limited taxes, pro-capitalism, pro-national defense, pro-freedom, and-pro America. We oppose all forms of liberalism, socialism, fascism, pacifism, totalitarianism, anarchism, government enforced atheism, abortionism, feminism, homosexualism, racism, wacko environmentalism, judicial activism, etc. We also oppose the United Nations or any other world government body that may attempt to impose its will or rule over our sovereign nation and sovereign people. We believe in defending our borders, our constitution and our national sovereignty."

Cordially,

81 posted on 12/03/2011 6:21:06 AM PST by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: Diamond

Please define the difference between religion and superstition


82 posted on 12/03/2011 6:27:18 AM PST by muir_redwoods (No wonder this administration favors abortion; everything they have done is an abortion)
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To: muir_redwoods
I thought you didn't want to waste time and bandwidth in deconstruction of words (?)

Words are the only tools we have here to try to communicate. My intent has not merely been to engage in word deconstruction, it has been to communicate a message to you.

As far a the word "religion", I am willing to stipulate its meaning in the same sense(s) in which the Founders used it.

As far as the word, "superstition", I submit the following current definition for your consideration:

su·per·sti·tion / ˌsoōpərˈstishən/ • n. excessively credulous belief in and reverence for supernatural beings: he dismissed the ghost stories as mere superstition.
∎  a widely held but unjustified belief in supernatural causation leading to certain consequences of an action or event, or a practice based on such a belief: she touched her locket for luck, a superstition she had had since childhood.

The difference of course is whether or not the belief is considered properly justified, or properly basic, but these concepts entail epistemological problems that I'm guessing you will probably not want to delve into in light of your expressed distaste for undergraduate-style philosophical discussion.

Cordially,

83 posted on 12/03/2011 7:36:38 AM PST by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: Lou Budvis
The gov’t has no business telling consenting adults with whom (or WHAT, by logical extenstion of the assertion ) they can have sex.
84 posted on 12/03/2011 7:40:26 AM PST by j_tull (I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.)
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To: Diamond

Then let me ask why you seem to have unnecessarily confabulated God with religion. It’s a bit like confabulating love with romance novels to my eyes. While it’s true Jim’s site includes a reverence for God, I see no similar mention of religion.


85 posted on 12/03/2011 1:05:26 PM PST by muir_redwoods (No wonder this administration favors abortion; everything they have done is an abortion)
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